Origins of our Bible

[joeNJ]

Does the origins of how are Bible was formed disturb anyone? The fact that men gathered, generations after Jesus was crucified, and picked which documents were included and which were excluded really bothers me. It also bothers me why the Book of Revelations was included. Was the author, John, really John the Apostle? The choices these men made became words inspired by God, but many of the authors never even made that claim. I struggle with this every day, how do you cope with this?

 

[Phyllo]

Does the origins of how are Bible was formed disturb anyone? The fact that men gathered, generations after Jesus was crucified, and picked which documents were included and which were excluded really bothers me. It also bothers me why the Book of Revelations was included. Was the author, John, really John the Apostle? The choices these men made became words inspired by God, but many of the authors never even made that claim. I struggle with this every day, how do you cope with this?

Nothing very earth shattering here but what else is there? The bible teaches nothing wrong. We can trace our popes back to St. Peter. The way there are cross reverences from the OT to the NT and the Bible writers didn’t have computers. Haven’t you noticed that the farther we get from God the worse our culture becomes? I am surprised as a culture we are still here. In my mind we are worse that Sodom and we are still here.

I believe that Catholicism is the true religion. I won’t waste time on delving into questions that can’t or won’t be answered. I trust God, the CC and the Magisterium there is nothing else.

Just my :twocents:

 

[Gaber]

Does the origins of how are Bible was formed disturb anyone? The fact that men gathered, generations after Jesus was crucified, and picked which documents were included and which were excluded really bothers me. It also bothers me why the Book of Revelations was included. Was the author, John, really John the Apostle? The choices these men made became words inspired by God, but many of the authors never even made that claim. I struggle with this every day, how do you cope with this?

Despite its very unfortunate and extremely misleading title, there is a book that has some superb tools for looking at this question, tools not ordinarily used by the pious and simple faithful. It is desigined for people like you and me who have sincere questions such as the one you pose. And I happen to know that it has been used in Catholic classes on comparative religion, as it deals primarily with Christian ideas about faith. PM me if you wish to have the title and author.

 

[CalCatholic]

joeNJ, it does not bother me at all that God didn’t drop our Bible out of the sky into our laps. Would that have been easier? Sure, but that does not seem to be the way that God works. Could God make us all instant believers and disciples? Yes of course, but he chose to give us free will and let us find him through his Church. The Bible is the inspired Word of God and God chose to use human beings to write and edit these books (under inspiration of the Holy Spirit), but they were assembled and passed down through human history. Maybe it is the way that God wants to communicate with us, first through his promised people and later through his Church.

 

[itullian]

Nothing very earth shattering here but what else is there? The bible teaches nothing wrong. We can trace our popes back to St. Peter. The way there are cross reverences from the OT to the NT and the Bible writers didn’t have computers. Haven’t you noticed that the farther we get from God the worse our culture becomes? I am surprised as a culture we are still here. In my mind we are worse that Sodom and we are still here.

I believe that Catholicism is the true religion. I won’t waste time on delving into questions that can’t or won’t be answered. I trust God, the CC and the Magisterium there is nothing else.

Just my :twocents:

:yup:

 

[JRKH]

Does the origins of how are Bible was formed disturb anyone? The fact that men gathered, generations after Jesus was crucified, and picked which documents were included and which were excluded really bothers me. It also bothers me why the Book of Revelations was included. Was the author, John, really John the Apostle? The choices these men made became words inspired by God, but many of the authors never even made that claim. I struggle with this every day, how do you cope with this?

Well I coped by coming to some understanding of how the Church formed and developed in those early centuries. Since Jesus did not write a book, but instead established a Church and sent the Holy Spirit to protect and guide it, I must, out of necessity, trust the Church if I am to trust Jesus.
Then - when it comes to the matters of the actual canon…Since Christ promised protection to His Church…and since He said where two or more are gathered in His name, he will be there…and since the bishops of the various councils DID gather in His name and pray for protection and guidance, it must follow that they got the selections correct.
So - I trust in Christ and in the Church He established.
As the Apostles said in John 6, “Where else shall we go? You have the words of Eternal Life”.

Now to the question of Revelation…there are parts of the bible that are difficult to understand. But generally speaking they deal with things that are not of immediate import to our living a Good Christian life. So my solution to that is to simply leave them alone. Instead I concentrate on the Gospels and Jesus instructions to us to Love one another as He Loves us.
Trying to Live in Love - is plenty enough to keep one busy in this life and is the best preparation for the next life.

Peace
James

 

[snarflemike]

Does the origins of how are Bible was formed disturb anyone? The fact that men gathered, generations after Jesus was crucified, and picked which documents were included and which were excluded really bothers me. It also bothers me why the Book of Revelations was included. Was the author, John, really John the Apostle? The choices these men made became words inspired by God, but many of the authors never even made that claim. I struggle with this every day, how do you cope with this?

God always uses his beloved children (us) to help him do things he could certainly do alone. What you describe is simply one example. If you believe the Holy Spirit can and does guide the Church then you should not be bothered. If you don’t believe this, you should not be Catholic (or even Christian).

 

[edwest2]

The books of the Bible were chosen men under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

amazon.com/Why-Catholic-Bibles-are-Bigger/dp/1581880103

Peace,
Ed

 

[De_Maria]

Does the origins of how are Bible was formed disturb anyone? The fact that men gathered, generations after Jesus was crucified, and picked which documents were included and which were excluded really bothers me. It also bothers me why the Book of Revelations was included. Was the author, John, really John the Apostle? The choices these men made became words inspired by God, but many of the authors never even made that claim. I struggle with this every day, how do you cope with this?

I’m wondering what you expected? Jesus established the Church and commanded Her to pass down Tradition. The Church did so and also wrote the New Testament and canonized the Old in order to facilitate the Mission given Her by Christ.

Would you prefer if God had sort of rained the Scriptures down from heaven? In other words, what scenario would not bother you?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[kwortham]

Does the origins of how are Bible was formed disturb anyone? The fact that men gathered, generations after Jesus was crucified, and picked which documents were included and which were excluded really bothers me. It also bothers me why the Book of Revelations was included. Was the author, John, really John the Apostle? The choices these men made became words inspired by God, but many of the authors never even made that claim. I struggle with this every day, how do you cope with this?

Let protestants struggle with that question. Let them fumble around for answers when they claim that the church fell into error after the first century, but this same Church gave everyone the Bible in the late fourth century.

Even scripture acknowledges that the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. As the pillar and ground of the truth, you have to believe that the Church gave us the right books. The Bible is only inspired because the Church declared it inspired.

Sola Scriptura types are going to have perpetual problems with the formation of the Bible. Not only does the Bible not claim itself to be the pillar and ground of truth, but there is a lack of a divinely given Table of Contents listing which books should be there in the Bible.

 

[Todd_Easton]

I’m not too bothered. Though the definitive list of New Testament books may not have been decreed until the last half of the fourth century, nearly complete lists of the books of the New Testament began to appear within the lifetime of those who had heard St. John the Apostle preach. I am thinking of the list of books found in the Muratorian Fragment, written between A.D. 155 and 200, and of St. Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna and hearer of St. John the Apostle, who was martyred about A.D. 156. Some of those early Christians were especially long-lived, such as St. Narcissus, bishop of Jerusalem, who was born towards the close of the first century and lived well into the third century, dying about the age of 116 years

 

[wiggbuggie]

my understanding is that the church gathered all the NT books that were used throughout the churches and there liturgies and practices and left out the books that were unpopulare or contrary to the faith passed from the apostles themselves.

 

[joeNJ]

Nothing very earth shattering here but what else is there? The bible teaches nothing wrong. We can trace our popes back to St. Peter. The way there are cross reverences from the OT to the NT and the Bible writers didn’t have computers. Haven’t you noticed that the farther we get from God the worse our culture becomes? I am surprised as a culture we are still here. In my mind we are worse that Sodom and we are still here.

I believe that Catholicism is the true religion. I won’t waste time on delving into questions that can’t or won’t be answered. I trust God, the CC and the Magisterium there is nothing else.

Just my :twocents:

I’m offended that you would so cavalierly dismiss my issue, “Nothing very earth shattering?” How about the whole idea of the bible supposedly being inspired but compiled by men who had never met Jesus or a disciple? "The bible teaches nothing wrong. We can trace our popes back to St. Peter. [The way there are cross reverences from the OT to the NT and the Bible writers didn’t have computers. "] These comments have nothing to do with my question and thanks for clearing up the question about computers, I thought St. Peter was a whiz on DOS. From what I understand, your answer is, you trust the men chosen to look over the books, letters and documents available to choose and compile,(perhaps edit?), the one uniform book and declare the documents they chose to be the word of God. If this is your answer that’s great and I admire your faith, but you have to see that some people may have difficulties with this.

 

[joeNJ]

joeNJ, it does not bother me at all that God didn’t drop our Bible out of the sky into our laps. Would that have been easier? Sure, but that does not seem to be the way that God works. Could God make us all instant believers and disciples? Yes of course, but he chose to give us free will and let us find him through his Church. The Bible is the inspired Word of God and God chose to use human beings to write and edit these books (under inspiration of the Holy Spirit), but they were assembled and passed down through human history. Maybe it is the way that God wants to communicate with us, first through his promised people and later through his Church.

I understand the role faith plays and in learning about the life of Jesus. My problem is that God did not say these books/letters are my words(of course there are quotes of Gods voice in the Bible, that’s not what I’m talking about). The actions of Jesus and the reaction to his actions by those who witnessed it are what I find to be the most compelling. This is what my faith is built on. What bothers me is the human beings, not chosen by God, that selected the books and letters to be included, many written by authors who never claimed to be inspired at the time of writing it. I’m glad you can find the Bible to be the inspired words of God so easily, I struggle with that.

 

[joeNJ]

Well I coped by coming to some understanding of how the Church formed and developed in those early centuries. Since Jesus did not write a book, but instead established a Church and sent the Holy Spirit to protect and guide it, I must, out of necessity, trust the Church if I am to trust Jesus.
Then - when it comes to the matters of the actual canon…Since Christ promised protection to His Church…and since He said where two or more are gathered in His name, he will be there…and since the bishops of the various councils DID gather in His name and pray for protection and guidance, it must follow that they got the selections correct.
So - I trust in Christ and in the Church He established.
As the Apostles said in John 6, “Where else shall we go? You have the words of Eternal Life”.

Now to the question of Revelation…there are parts of the bible that are difficult to understand. But generally speaking they deal with things that are not of immediate import to our living a Good Christian life. So my solution to that is to simply leave them alone. Instead I concentrate on the Gospels and Jesus instructions to us to Love one another as He Loves us.
Trying to Live in Love - is plenty enough to keep one busy in this life and is the best preparation for the next life.

Peace
James

I really like your answer James, thank you. I’m not so trusting of the church as they have led us astray many times over the centuries. I think semantics is an issue in understanding your answer. Is the “Church” Jesus was talking about the organized body that we know today? Or is the Church the people that commit to live life as Jesus wants us to.

 

[joeNJ]

God always uses his beloved children (us) to help him do things he could certainly do alone. What you describe is simply one example. If you believe the Holy Spirit can and does guide the Church then you should not be bothered. If you don’t believe this, you should not be Catholic (or even Christian).

Talk about blind faith, if you were around during the time of the crusades and the Popes were using their power to create armies, or condoning the Inquisition, were they inspired by the Holy Spirit? Or are you the one that knows really which one is or isn’t?

 

[joeNJ]

I’m wondering what you expected? Jesus established the Church and commanded Her to pass down Tradition. The Church did so and also wrote the New Testament and canonized the Old in order to facilitate the Mission given Her by Christ.

Would you prefer if God had sort of rained the Scriptures down from heaven? In other words, what scenario would not bother you?

Sincerely,

De Maria

How about if the Church said “this is the information/letters about Jesus that we know. We will follow his example and live life as Jesus wants us to live.” That would not bother me. The Church Jesus was describing in your quote are the apostles and his followers. They listened to his request and went out to teach about Jesus. They never formed a Bible. They wrote letters about Jesus’ life.You are using a modern definition of Church not the one Jesus was referring to. Some of the apostles wrote letters about Jesus that were included in the Bible, but the authors never even knew their words would be included in a single document.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JoeNJ,

This can be a troubleing question… and one that demands that we approach this with Faith and Prayer, and a real sense of history.

Does the origins of how are Bible was formed disturb anyone? The fact that men gathered, generations after Jesus was crucified, and picked which documents were included and which were excluded really bothers me.

You really have received a number of excellent responses. For me, puting our Bible in a historic context was a good place to start - but, we just can not end there. The very idea that God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son (John 3:16) is truly so astounding - that it totally goes beyond human understanding. This is where Faith comes in.

It also bothers me why the Book of Revelations was included. Was the author, John, really John the Apostle? The choices these men made became words inspired by God, but many of the authors never even made that claim. I struggle with this every day, how do you cope with this?

With the 46 books in the OT and 27 in the NT, I did find it odd that you only took exception only with the last book. Does it mean that much to youSt. that John was the physical author, or could God have gotten His message through with another human author?

Does the origins of how are Bible was formed disturb anyone? The fact that men gathered, generations after Jesus was crucified, and picked which documents were included and which were excluded really bothers me. It also bothers me why the Book of Revelations was included. Was the author, John, really John the Apostle? The choices these men made became words inspired by God, but many of the authors never even made that claim. I struggle with this every day, how do you cope with this?

The choices these men made became words inspired by God, but many of the authors never even made that claim. I struggle with this every day, how do you cope with this?

The choice was made by men being guided by the Holy Spirit. If we have Faith in the words of Christ - as recorded in the Bible - then the Spirit will lead us to all truth (John 16:13). If we don’t, then it really doesn’t matter does it?

God bless

 

[JRKH]

I really like your answer James, thank you. I’m not so trusting of the church as they have led us astray many times over the centuries.

You’ve lived over centuries?? Man — You gotta tell me what you’ve been eating…

Seriously - I try not to concern myself too much with matters that occurred in the Church centuries ago. Different times, different ideas, different cultures - just a lot different…

As I said in my closing, Just living Love - today and tomorrow is quite enough…I’ll leave the rest to the apologists…

I think semantics is an issue in understanding your answer. Is the “Church” Jesus was talking about the organized body that we know today? Or is the Church the people that commit to live life as Jesus wants us to.

The answer to your questions is an single - YES.

The Church is both. The Structure that we have today is a necessary result of the desire of the earliest Christians to uphold that Which Christ founded and prayed for.

Consider:
Most any group of any size will develop some sort of structure for the purpose of coordination, governance, handling of monies etc as well as providing a forum for handling rules, disagreements, and other matters necessary for the good of the group as a whole.
So - should it be a surprise that the Christians began developing organizational structures early on?

Christ founded a Church - a community. That community is comprised of people who have committed themselves to “live as Jesus wants us to” ( or at least we try:shrug.
Jesus also prayed that His community be One as He and the Father are one…(John 13:34-35) A veerryy close relationship…
Jesus then gave the Church Authority to Bind and Loose - “Whatever” (Mt 16:17-19 and Mt 18:15-18)…Pretty broad authority wouldn’t you say?
Jesus then told us to take obstinate and contentious issues and “Tell it to The Church”
AND that we are to “Listen to the Church” lest we be treated as a heathen and a tax collector (Mt 18:15-18).

Then - when the early Church faced it’s first doctrinal crisis - the Early Christians demonstrated what would become the trademark method for dealing with such issues. They held a council, came to a decision and promulgated that decision in writing (Acts 15).

As the Church grew bigger and bigger - it became more and more necessary to have better communications, to have a way to review writings, to debate issues and most especially to gather, collate, copy distribute and teach only the Truth of the Gospels.
So - over time - the institutional structures that we have today developed, not as something imposed from outside and separate from the faithful as individuals, but rather as an outgrowth of the desire on the part of the group to “live as Jesus wants us to live”.
They are an outgrowth of the desire to “be one” as Jesus and the Father are one.
They are the result of the needs and desires to protect, defend, copy, distribute and teach the truth of the Gospel.

Not sure I explained that well…I hope it helps you understand some.

Peace
James

 

[joeNJ]

Hi, JoeNJ,

This can be a troubleing question… and one that demands that we approach this with Faith and Prayer, and a real sense of history.

You really have received a number of excellent responses. For me, puting our Bible in a historic context was a good place to start - but, we just can not end there. The very idea that God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son (John 3:16) is truly so astounding - that it totally goes beyond human understanding. This is where Faith comes in.

With the 46 books in the OT and 27 in the NT, I did find it odd that you only took exception only with the last book. Does it mean that much to youSt. that John was the physical author, or could God have gotten His message through with another human author?

The choice was made by men being guided by the Holy Spirit. If we have Faith in the words of Christ - as recorded in the Bible - then the Spirit will lead us to all truth (John 16:13). If we don’t, then it really doesn’t matter does it?

God bless

Thanks Tom for your answer but I think it is too easy to say the men chosen were inspired. If they were inspired why did it take centuries for the Church to finalize the Bible? Why did St. Jerome and St. Augustine have different opinions on what should be included? And just because I doubt this, doesn’t mean “it doesn’t matter.” It does matter greatly, I believe Jesus wanted us to pattern our lives after his teachings, which are described so perfectly by the Apostles. Why did we need a Bible after this? I can think of reasons which is what disturbs me.