Orignal Sin

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Jesus is described in the New Testament as the “second Adam” for through the first Adam, death entered the world (separation from God), and through Jesus, the "second Adam), death was destroyed, and mankind was redeemed (reconciliation to God). Before Jesus, no one could enter heaven (where the Glory of God’s presence is, and we can see Him face to face). After Jesus’ resurrection and ascension into heaven, we can now enter heaven, and dwell with God, face to face, once again. Jesus is the “bread of life” of which we eat.
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How is that different from what I’m saying. Adam introduces Life and Death, Jesus brings us Back to the Father, the infinite. Separation and Reunion.

You can string together opposites Top/Bottom, Right/Left, Side Front etc. It’s still duality. It’s how we as humans experience the world.
 
jonfawkes said:
what do immortal beings need with a tree of life - it was planned - gen 3

22
Then the LORD God said: “See! The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad! Therefore, he must not be allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever.”
23
The LORD God therefore banished him from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he had been taken.
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5 When he expelled the man, he settled him east of the garden of Eden; and he stationed the cherubim and the fiery revolving sword, to guard the way to the tree of life.
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Indeed.

There are those who argue from this that God had not yet decided, nor determined through his creative act, whether Adam and Eve would live forever. But the disobedience settled this, at least in God’s eyes.
 
Porcupine said:
I’m not seeing anything in here that contradicts my earlier statements. If you see a Christian defense of nondualism here, then you’ve got your answer. Praise God! 🙂
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Dualism is our experience not God’s. Evil is our experience not God’s. The Infinite is beyond duality.

I see that supported.
 
jonfawkes said:
p.s. I don’t think any Saint ( or the church) would say they are wholly good. We are all sinners.
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What the saints (and the Church) profess is that we are by grace what He is by nature. Thus, to the degree that we are in full cooperation with the sanctifying grace within us, is the degree that we are (wholly) good.
 
jonfawkes said:
what do immortal beings need with a tree of life - it was planned - gen 3

22
Then the LORD God said: “See! The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad! Therefore, he must not be allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever.”
23
The LORD God therefore banished him from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he had been taken.
24
5 When he expelled the man, he settled him east of the garden of Eden; and he stationed the cherubim and the fiery revolving sword, to guard the way to the tree of life.
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Hi Jon,

The Lord warned Adam and Eve that if they ate of the fruit of the forbidden tree, they would die. (Physical death would enter the world). As I relayed earlier, their souls (and thus every human beings souls) are immortal. This is our “spirit” that never dies. Our physical bodies were meant to be immortal as well, but because of sin, just as God warned, our coporeal bodies were to return to the dust of the earth. Therefore, this tree of Life (God is the creator of all life) was forbidden to them now. The Old Testament is a foreshadowing of the New Testament, and Jesus is our Tree of Life now, per se, and we who eat of His flesh and drink of His blood will have eternal life in us as I already stated.
 
jonfawkes said:
How is that different from what I’m saying. Adam introduces Life and Death, Jesus brings us Back to the Father, the infinite. Separation and Reunion.

You can string together opposites Top/Bottom, Right/Left, Side Front etc. It’s still duality. It’s how we as humans experience the world.
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Hi Jon,

because Adam did not introduce Life – God did. He is the creator of everything spiritual and material. Adam is not.

Yes, this is correct that Jesus brings us back to the Father, nonetheless, He doesn’t force us. It is our choice. Jesus redeemed mankind (bought back) from being slaves to sin, and through Him we are reconciled to God.

Well, I concede that some (probably most?) humans experience the world as duality, but I do not. I have always had a tendency to “think outside the box”, and see the world not as black and white, but in grays, per se… 😉
 
CEM5 said:
Hi Jon,

because Adam did not introduce Life – God did. He is the creator of everything spiritual and material. Adam is not.

Yes, this is correct that Jesus brings us back to the Father, nonetheless, He doesn’t force us. It is our choice. Jesus redeemed mankind (bought back) from being slaves to sin, and through Him we are reconciled to God.

Well, I concede that some (probably most?) humans experience the world as duality, but I do not. I have always had a tendency to “think outside the box”, and see the world not as black and white, but in grays, per se… 😉
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It’s metaphor to chose to live life, we could have just stayed one with father but we wouldn’t be human. Like a child leaving home to become an adult.
 
jonfawkes said:
It’s metaphor to chose to live life, we could have just stayed one with father but we wouldn’t be human.
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This is incorrect. Being “one with father” means we are fully human. It’s for this that we were made.
 
Again it metaphor - we are cast out of the garden like a bird being kicked out of the nest. God is omnipotent, it’s was part of the plan. We had to leave to come into our own.
 
jonfawkes said:
God is omnipotent, it’s was part of the plan.
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Indeed. As St. Augustine said we should rejoice in this fault. *Felix culpa! *

If you’ve ever had the privilege of attending a Catholic Easter Vigil service, jon, you might remember we recite this:

“O happy fault,
O necessary sin of Adam,
which gained for us so great a Redeemer!”
 
jonfawkes said:
Again it metaphor - we are cast out of the garden like a bird being kicked out of the nest. God is omnipotent, it’s was part of the plan. We had to leave to come into our own.
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We may’ve had to leave-actually kicking ourselves out of the nest like the Prodigal Son
-but it was to gain the wisdom to learn of our need for Him after all.
 
jonfawkes said:
Again it metaphor - we are cast out of the garden like a bird being kicked out of the nest. God is omnipotent, it’s was part of the plan. We had to leave to come into our own.
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Saying it’s a metaphor to compare Adam being kicked out and the bird being kicked out of its nest still doesnt’ “fit”. It is comparing two (usually nouns) in a similar manner. Such as: The inside of the house was as hot as the inside of a furnace. Your usuage is more in keeping with a simile. 😉

Nonetheless, a mother bird will kick out her grown chick (not really a “chick” anymore 🙂 ) when it is ready to fly and be on its own. The bird didn’t do anything wrong - it was time to be on its own and no longer supported by the mother bird.

In contrast, The Father (God) kicked us out, not because we were full grown and ready to be on our own, but because we sinned. In order to have life, we NEED God always. We will NEVER be ready to be on our own - independent of God, we have no life.

This is a fundamental lesson that everyone must learn in order to have eternal life. If not, when our life’s journey on earth ends, we will find ourselves independent of God in hell.

blessings,
cEM
 
I’m saying that we have to experience and become responsible for our lives. That is the lesson. The story is the metaphor for that experience.

If you are constantly worrying about Hell you are already there. 🙂
 
jonfawkes said:
I’m saying that we have to experience and become responsible for our lives. That is the lesson. The story is the metaphor for that experience.

If you are constantly worrying about Hell you are already there. 🙂
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Here are some Mormon teaching on the Fall. See if they are agreeing with your notions.

"Indeed, we honor and respect Adam and Eve for their wisdom and foresight. Their lives in the Garden of Eden were blissful and pleasant; choosing to leave that behind so they and the entire human family could experience both the triumphs and travails of mortality must not have been easy. But we believe they did choose mortality, and in so doing made it possible for all of us to participate in Heavenly Father’s great, eternal plan”.

“Their choice did not come from a desire to disobey the Lord, but from a desire to gain wisdom. Because of this choice, we have the opportunity to come to earth and learn, as Adam and Eve did, how to choose good over evil. Express your gratitude for Adam and Eve and the choice they made.”

Behind these ideas resides the LDS (Latter-day Saint) belief that prior to the fall, Adam and Eve could not procreate, possibly due to the supposition that they wouldn’t have perceived each other’s nakedness (see Genesis 2:25; 3:7, 10, 11). In addition, Mormons assert that God provided Adam and Eve with two conflicting commands, the command to procreate and the command (read, prohibition) to eat of the tree. Without doing the latter, they would not be able to do the former. And if they obeyed the prohibition, then they would have lacked the ability to procreate. Thus, according to LDS theology, God placed Adam and Eve in a catch-22: there was no way for them to exist except for breaking one or the other of these commands (compare 1 Corinthians 10:13). I would suggest that this implies that while we may see the serpent as the tempter, he was merely an accomplice: it is God who initiated the temptation in creating a situation in which sin was inescapable (compare James 1:13)
from: kevinbywater.com/weblog/?page_id=35
 
Only one and two - because A&E are a metaphor - three takes the story as a literal event.
 
CEM5 said:
Saying it’s a metaphor to compare Adam being kicked out and the bird being kicked out of its nest still doesnt’ “fit”. It is comparing two (usually nouns) in a similar manner. Such as: The inside of the house was as hot as the inside of a furnace. Your usuage is more in keeping with a simile. 😉

Nonetheless, a mother bird will kick out her grown chick (not really a “chick” anymore 🙂 ) when it is ready to fly and be on its own. The bird didn’t do anything wrong - it was time to be on its own and no longer supported by the mother bird.

In contrast, The Father (God) kicked us out, not because we were full grown and ready to be on our own, but because we sinned. In order to have life, we NEED God always. We will NEVER be ready to be on our own - independent of God, we have no life.

This is a fundamental lesson that everyone must learn in order to have eternal life. If not, when our life’s journey on earth ends, we will find ourselves independent of God in hell.

blessings,
cEM
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The tone of Genesis 1-3 is not that God was exiling humanity for its benefit or its good. The tone is straight punishment. Later, some deals are made with humans.
 
larkin31 said:
The tone of Genesis 1-3 is not that God was exiling humanity for its benefit or its good. The tone is straight punishment. Later, some deals are made with humans.
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This may appear to be “straight punishment”, but it is not.

I have heard many parents trying to explain to their toddler/preschooler why they received immunizations. To the child there is no reasoning that can explain why their mommy just let a stranger stick a needle into their thigh. No toddler/preschooler is capable of understanding, “Well, if we expose you to a little bit of the antigen your body will recognize it as an invader and will make antibodies against this antigen…so the next time you get exposed to the antigen, it won’t make you sick ever again!”

Nuh-uh. The child just thinks it’s “straight punishment.” 🤷
 
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