Orignal Sin

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jonfawkes said:
why not? He built us that way-He knew what would happen.
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I don’t believe that all of us will reject God’s love and mercy at the moment of our death. The good thief didn’t. My suggestion is to focus on the positive.
 
davidv said:
Because “knowing” does not equal “causing”. In His immense love He gave up control over us by giving us free will. In so doing, He also permits our own selfless donation to Him and others. In other words we are free to love.
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👍
 
jonfawkes said:
But God mad the creation - all capacity for good and for evil that is in man was placed there by God. We are his creations. God created the Situation and the Ability for Adam to fall. God made the rules. He is all knowing so in making Adam he knew he would fall.

Elephants don’t need to be saved because they never fell from grace.
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God knows everything and from His great love of us, His children, knowing we would fall from Grace, He still created us, having a plan for our redemption and salvation, should we then accept it.

Animals and other lifeforms were not created in the image and likeness of God: only humans.

Our “image and likeness” of God that He created us in has nothing to do with the physical: We were created in the “likeness” of God by being good (holy - having sanctifying grace), “immortal” (our soul), and the “image of God” with intelligence and free will which all humans (and angels) possess.

The Catechism and the liturgy make a distinction between image and likeness as well: In the Eucharistic Prayer we pray: “Through Him You restored us to Your likeness.”
Through the sacrament of baptism we now have that sanctifying grace restored to us.

God did not create evil.

The Church recognizes two evils:
  1. Physical evil
  2. Moral evil
Some people question how, if God who is omniscient, omnipresent (has infinite and complete knowledge, and is present in all places at all times) and Omni benevolent (all good and all loving), allow evil to exist? If God exists then He is an evil God since He would allow a child to, let’s say, get hit by a car and die; get cancer and suffer terribly, and allow poverty and hunger, etc…

In philosophy, the meaning of evil is a “real privation”. Some people will quote Isaiah 45:7 (RSV) “I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things.” (Some translate “woe” as “evil”.) They use this quote to “prove” that God created evil. They misunderstand this verse, because they lump evil into one meaning.

God does not create evil morals. There are two kinds of evil:
  1. PHYSICAL: The absence of some property in a body which it ought to have - ie: blindness; mental/physical pain; diseases… God can be the indirect or direct cause of such because of the fall of man., but to bring about a greater good. When God created everything, all things had what they ought to have had (what they needed). God gave man free will, and because of man’s evil morals (sin), physical evil came into the world. Man was warned ahead of time, but freely chose the path that led to privation and death. God, because He is good, will restore all things one day, and those who have chosen God will live forever with Him. Those of us who have chosen God and proven our faithfulness and obedience (overcome the desires of moral evil) will no longer commit evil. Those who have proven to have a propensity for moral evil will be banished (hell) forever. They will be deprived of the presence of God and the access to heaven.
  2. MORAL EVIL: Only found in beings endowed with freedom. It is the absence of right order in some action performed: i.e., Personal sin. This, as Paul acknowledges in 2 Thess 2:7 is “the mystery of inequity” (or lawlessness). Some claim God should have given Adam and Eve more grace so that they wouldn’t have sinned. However, God gave them enough grace to resist. He also gave them the freedom to choose. He didn’t create robots or puppets. He allowed this knowing what the outcome would be, and He already had a greater good planned for the future: A Savior.
So, God did not create evil. He gave us free will. As such we are free moral agents who are the cause of moral evil. (Angels and humans are free moral agents.)
God only permits moral evil because in His infinite goodness and omnipotence (knows all things) He will bring about a greater good. The existence of evil, far from showing us there is no God, proves the existence of God. It forces us to realize that there must be a God since evil presupposes the existence of good, which a being ought to have. “Ought” implies order, and order requires intelligence. (Cause and effect.)

Therefore, that there must be a God is a realization and that God is not evil can be shown.

We are not forced to love God, nor are we forced to do God’s will (which is to love one another as God has loved us – He gave His life for us in order to redeem mankind). He did not create us as puppets or robots that perform according to what God dictates and directs: that is what “free will” is all about. It is our choice, and unfortunately too many of us choose to follow evil paths rather than good. When evil invades our lives, (illness, accidents and such) God is there to give us the comfort and strength to carry on in hope and faith. He works often through the kindness and love of others who desire to follow God.

God created the world with enough resources for everyone to be able to live comfortably, however because of the greed of man, some take too much for themselves thus leaving inadequate resources for many. That is why there is so much suffering, illness, hunger and homelessness. This is man’s shortcomings – not God’s.

Evil will not last indefinitely – that is a promise we have from God. He showed us the way to obtain eternal happiness and peace with Him or should we reject that way, we are free to choose the path that leads to eternal separation (hell) from God who embodies the fullness of love and happiness. The choice since we were not created as puppets or robots has always been ours.

blessings,
CEM
 
CEM5 said:
Hi JTBT,

Genesis 3, Sin of Adam - alientation between man and God.

Original sin is a “state”. As such, we are all born into this state of separation from God. Now we have not only alienation from God, but from nature as well. That is why we need God. Only God can (could) restore this lost state.

Because of the sin of Adam, grace was lost to man, and man’s goodness, as God created him, was lost. Nothing evil can reside in God’s presence, thus the banishment. However, we, as God’s children, are so loved, that God planned from the beginning (for He knew the outcome) to bring salvation back to mankind. Adam’s sin of the loss of grace (thus death entered the world) was an eternal sin. No person could negate this eternal sin - only one who is eternal. That is God.

The “stain of original sin” was passed down from generation to generation - this loss of grace. ***You cannot give grace to others when you don’t have it yourself to pass on. ***Thus this is original sin of which all mankind inherited. Adam’s imperfection, because we are born of Adam, is passed onto all men. Because this is a human sin also, it had to be restored by a human. Only one “person” fit the bill of being both divine (eternal) and human (man) – Jesus, God incarnate. Jesus has two natures: Human and Divine. Thus He was the only one to “fix” this eternal sin of the loss of God’s grace. Jesus bore all of the world’s sin upon himself in order that redemption of mankind could be made. This act bore all past, present and future sins. Jesus showed by his death and subsequent resurrection, that He is Lord over life and death - He rose from the dead and with this showed His conquering of sin and death. He is the “Lamb of God”, and redeemer of mankind. (Redeem means to buy back from slavery or one’s debts). As Scripture says, we are no longer slaves to sin - we now have the grace to resist temptations and sin, and accept eternal salvation - our restored place with God. Through the Sacrament of Baptism, we receive the grace we lost, and thus the stain of original sin is washed away.

Furthermore, because we are the offspring of Adam we carry upon ourselves what he passed onto us through him: That is the loss of grace and death of our corporeal bodies.

A wise person spoke in our group in Church about how he saw this loss of grace. I will try to explain it, but forgive me if I don’t do his words and thoughts justice.

It is like someone making a CD without flaws. It is “perfect” and “good”. Then someone comes along and makes a copy of the CD - doesn’t want the original, but their own version of it. This copied CD then has some flaws in it, and whenever someone then makes copies from this flawed version, those flaws will always be there. Nothing can be done to correct these flaws for they no longer have the original - it was discarded. So, copy after copy carries those flaws.

This analogy is what Adam did to humans and all subsequent generations - we are copies of his imperfection. The grace he lost, he no longer had to pass onto us. We are the “flawed” copies of the first fallen humans. Only God created the originals but the originals became “flawed” when they chose to accept death…

Don’t know if this makes sense to you, but it does to me.

Only God has the power to restore the flawed versions to perfection and by baptism we “erase” this flaw.

blessings and peace of Christ,
CEM :heaven:
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This makes a lot of sense. It is important to focus on the fact that God did not abandon us.
 
davidv said:
Because “knowing” does not equal “causing”. In His immense love He gave up control over us by giving us free will. In so doing, He also permits our own selfless donation to Him and others. In other words we are free to love.
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grannymh said:
I don’t believe that all of us will reject God’s love and mercy at the moment of our death. The good thief didn’t. My suggestion is to focus on the positive.
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No, not all just Adam and Eve - it was a set up.
 
CEM There is no need for a for a greater good if the fall never happened. If Jesus is the greTer good that allows to have a life in Gods grace and we were in Gods grace before the fall - why go through it all to get back where we started.
 
There is no need for redemption through Christ if there is no reason to redeemed - there had to be a reason to be redeemed to need a redeemer.
 
That we were in a state of grace before the fall - what’s the point of letting us fall just to save us after the fact. Why not just keep us in grace? We’re back where we started.
 
jonfawkes said:
CEM There is no need for a for a greater good if the fall never happened. If Jesus is the greTer good that allows to have a life in Gods grace and we were in Gods grace before the fall - why go through it all to get back where we started.
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Sometimes one just has to face the reality of Catholic teaching.
 
jonfawkes said:
Are you saying, it makes no sense but just accept it because of the authority of the church ?
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This (bolded) is only true if one is unable or unwilling to understand the well reasoned explanations that are available.
 
jonfawkes said:
Are you saying, it makes no sense but just accept it because of the authority of the church ?
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Actually, after studying the Catechism references I gave you, I find the whole thing extremely logical. It is more important for you to study on your own so I am not going to give you any hints.

Blessings,
granny

The quest for truth is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
 
That’s what I’m asking for- a well reasoned response. Every response seems to have these leaps of logic. Trying to regain my faith but things like this make no sense. It all seems reverse engineered and makes no sense under examination. God gave me my intellect am I not to use it?
 
jonfawkes said:
That’s what I’m asking for- a well reasoned response. Every response seems to have these leaps of logic. Trying to regain my faith but things like this make no sense. It all seems reverse engineered and makes no sense under examination. God gave me my intellect am I not to use it?
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I’ve gone back over the thread and there have been some very good reasoned responses. The Catechism, itself, is logical.

My last suggestion is to encourage you to study these along with studying the Catechism references. If you do not wish to share the actual Catechism statements which trouble you, that is your choice. However, in that case, there is no way I can continue to respond to your posts.

Blessings,
granny

**Basic Catholic teachings ****regarding Adam and Original Sin **are found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put the word paragraph and its number in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Entering topics, like Adam, is also very useful.

When you enter a paragraph number, like “paragraph 355”, and then click on the opening line, CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 355 you will see the following under the paragraph:

»
»Table of Contents
»
»
 
jonfawkes said:
CEM There is no need for a for a greater good if the fall never happened. If Jesus is the greTer good that allows to have a life in Gods grace and we were in Gods grace before the fall - why go through it all to get back where we started.
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Hi Jonfawkes,

We are given the chance to prove our love and obedience to God with this second chance our dear Lord gave us. When we fall from grace because of sin, we have the sacrament of reconciliation to forgive us when we are truly repentent.

John 20:
21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

See, Adam did not repent of his sin. Instead, Adam tried to blame God for giving him the woman who made him sin. This was a sin of pride alongside the sin of disobedience. When you read Genesis, note that God gave Adam the commandment not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - and it was Adam’s duty to educate Eve. When Eve was tricked by the devil note that God didn’t come out and say anything then, nor did He question Eve. It wasn’t until Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and when questioned by God, Adam refused responsibility - blamed Eve and God. So he never was sorry nor did he repent. Eve too blamed the serpent (the devil). It is something that people always try to do: avoid repsonsibility for their freely made choices and placing the blame of their wrongdoing upon others.

Genesis 3:12 NRSA
The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree, and I ate.”

Genesis 3:13 NRSA
Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent tricked me, and I ate.”

And we haven’t got back to where we started: it is where we are heading - To be with God walking in His presence once again, in heaven (true eternal happiness where there is no death, unhappiness, no sin, nothing evil…) just as it was in the beginning in the garden of Eden. We cannot enter heaven full of sin, therefore we determine our final destination by our free choices we make here on our journey on earth.

Praise the Lord for His eternal goodness and patience with us, and for the Gift of His Son who redeemed us.

blessings,
CEM
 
jonfawkes said:
That we were in a state of grace before the fall - what’s the point of letting us fall just to save us after the fact. Why not just keep us in grace? We’re back where we started.
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Hi Jonfawkes,

God did not “let” us fall. He gave us free will and intelligence. That is what love is about. God did not nor does He force anyone to love Him or be obedient to Him. If one did not have choices in life, how can one know how to freely love another? If you were forced to “love” someone and all choices were taken away from you, how could that be love? Love is freely given and never forced. That is why God gave a choice to Adam and Eve. Love means giving of oneself to another in selflessness, not selfishness.

Therefore, Adam and Eve freely choose to disobey God, even though they had EVERYTHING!! Yet, they still wanted more, and this was a great sin of pride and greed. Even when found out, they still tried to blame God and the devil rather than own up to their sin.

You can’t keep someone in grace when they don’t want it. They threw away grace when they sinned, and today, when we who were washed clean through the sacrament of baptism sin, we too fall from grace, but we have the sacrament of reconciliation when we are truly sorry and repent of our sin, and TRY not to repeat it again.

That is what Christ brought (bought) for us with His death upon the cross. Redemption from being slaves to sin, and the chance of eternal salvation (should we accept).

blessings,
CEM
 
Why were we given the ability to sin? How does denying our sinfulness get us closer to God? Wouldn’t giving us a predominant predilection toword the good be better for both of us?
 
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