Orlando victims

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probablyoutside

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So, I’m watching CNN right now and they are showing all of the victims of the Orlando terrorist attack with a moving song. It is heartbreaking.

I’m a bisexual man, in the closet, so in a way I am part of the LGBT community, in a way I’m not. I wasn’t really moved by the attacks until now. I mean, it’s just sad and not fair.

What happened is absolutely horrible. It wasn’t just LGBT individuals who perished, but others of so many backgrounds and experiences.

Maybe I’m wrong in believing this, and only God knows, but I think that Heaven gained 49 souls. These people were killed, had no way to prepare for their death.

Personally, I believe that people who had died in tragedies - car crashes, mass shootings, bombings etc. get to Heaven.

These people’s lives were cut short. Dozens were killed and injured, but thousands of lives changed. I mean…it’s ridiculous.

There are so many facets of this massacre - race, sexuality, religion, gun control. I don’t know what to blame for this and where to focus my attention. It seems many are focusing on the LGBT aspect of this, which I am conflicted about. Where do Catholicism and social justice meet on this issue?

I am just angry. 49 lives cut short. UGH!
 
Death can come at any moment. The truth is we don’t know where these people went, only God knows. So, unless somehow they are all declared Saints by the Church, then we don’t know where they are.
 
We don’t know where those people are; however, we do know that dying in a tragic event does not automatically send you to Heaven. If you have a single mortal sin on your soul at the time of death, it doesn’t matter how tragically you die, you will go to Hell. Considering many of these people were practicing homosexuals, it is unlikely all of them went to Heaven, but we can’t know for sure. We should pray for the repose of their souls regardless. Requiescant in pace.
 
One of the victims was a straight LifeTeen CORE member from a Florida parish that was there with a female friend to simply enjoy the great dance music. He’s a friend. He told his parents he was going to take her into Orlando to go out dancing.
That anyone died is tragic. There’s far too much death in our country.
May God have mercy on us, and may all these children of God rest in peace.
Try not to despair or speculate, just pray for the repose of their souls.
 
probablyoutside said:
So, I’m watching CNN right now and they are showing all of the victims of the Orlando terrorist attack with a moving song. It is heartbreaking.

I’m a bisexual man, in the closet, so in a way I am part of the LGBT community, in a way I’m not. I wasn’t really moved by the attacks until now. I mean, it’s just sad and not fair.

What happened is absolutely horrible. It wasn’t just LGBT individuals who perished, but others of so many backgrounds and experiences.

Maybe I’m wrong in believing this, and only God knows, but I think that Heaven gained 49 souls. These people were killed, had no way to prepare for their death.

Personally, I believe that people who had died in tragedies - car crashes, mass shootings, bombings etc. get to Heaven.

These people’s lives were cut short. Dozens were killed and injured, but thousands of lives changed. I mean…it’s ridiculous.

There are so many facets of this massacre - race, sexuality, religion, gun control. I don’t know what to blame for this and where to focus my attention. It seems many are focusing on the LGBT aspect of this, which I am conflicted about. Where do Catholicism and social justice meet on this issue?

I am just angry. 49 lives cut short. UGH!
Click to expand...
Regarding the hope of salvation, we cannot know what graces people get at the hour of their death, to encourage a last-second conversion. There is evidence that everyone gets a special opportunity to repent at that time. St. Faustina said that even the most desperate souls are visited with enormous graces, and that God reaches out to the dying soul three times to offer repentance. On the third time, “without any cooperation from the soul,” God gives it a grace to know God’s love: “The soul knows that this, for her, is final grace and, should it show even a flicker of good will, the mercy of God will accomplish the rest.” (Diary of St. Faustina Notebook 5 Paragraph 1486)

I suppose anyone about to die in mortal sin counts as a desperate soul. Let’s all pray for the victims of the shooting and the shooter, that they all repented at the last moment.
 
Confiteor_Deo said:
If you have a single mortal sin on your soul at the time of death, it doesn’t matter how tragically you die, you will go to Hell.
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I would be quite hesitant to make this statement in such a matter-of-fact manner. I know that is the general teaching of the Church, and I’m not suggesting we live carefree lives of happy-go-lucky sin, but God in His infinite goodness and mercy is not bound by any rule to eternally damn anyone.
 
probablyoutside said:
So, I’m watching CNN right now and they are showing all of the victims of the Orlando terrorist attack with a moving song. It is heartbreaking.

I’m a bisexual man, in the closet, so in a way I am part of the LGBT community, in a way I’m not. I wasn’t really moved by the attacks until now. I mean, it’s just sad and not fair.

What happened is absolutely horrible. It wasn’t just LGBT individuals who perished, but others of so many backgrounds and experiences.

Maybe I’m wrong in believing this, and only God knows, but I think that Heaven gained 49 souls. These people were killed, had no way to prepare for their death.

Personally, I believe that people who had died in tragedies - car crashes, mass shootings, bombings etc. get to Heaven.

These people’s lives were cut short. Dozens were killed and injured, but thousands of lives changed. I mean…it’s ridiculous.

There are so many facets of this massacre - race, sexuality, religion, gun control. I don’t know what to blame for this and where to focus my attention. It seems many are focusing on the LGBT aspect of this, which I am conflicted about. Where do Catholicism and social justice meet on this issue?

I am just angry. 49 lives cut short. UGH!
Click to expand...
I would love to believe victims of murder receive an automatic admission into heaven or those who perished in tragic ways. Man, this massacre for whatever reason hurts me so much. I have not cried to tragedies in the news much but this one I did cry.
 
Cor_ad_Cor said:
I would be quite hesitant to make this statement in such a matter-of-fact manner. I know that is the general teaching of the Church, and I’m not suggesting we live carefree lives of happy-go-lucky sin, but God in His infinite goodness and mercy is not bound by any rule to eternally damn anyone.
Click to expand...
I hope to God this is true.
 
thephilosopher6 said:
Death can come at any moment. The truth is we don’t know where these people went, only God knows. So, unless somehow they are all declared Saints by the Church, then we don’t know where they are.
Click to expand...
It’s impossible for anyone to know anything objectively, as we can only judge things by our senses and those senses might be deceived (“optical illusions” are basically “sensory failures”).

Even without surity, there is nothing wrong with assuming those Orlando Nightclub Victims are in Heaven.

I personally have the hope that God is loving (WANTS us to join him in Heaven), reasonable/fair/understanding (not even one good person went to Hell, and nobody goes to Hell on a technicality), and forgiving (anyone who says confession before death goes to Heaven, and failing that God offers a chance to plead for salvation in the moments between mortal injury and death). If God was not ALL GOOD, if he were not the Summum Bonum, then it would be impossible to feel any adoration or for that matter anything other than fear of him.

God being All-Loving is why I worship him.
 
BornInMarch said:
It’s impossible for anyone to know anything objectively, as we can only judge things by our senses and those senses might be deceived (“optical illusions” are basically “sensory failures”).

Even without surity, there is nothing wrong with assuming those Orlando Nightclub Victims are in Heaven.
Click to expand...
Friend,

It is important to know that we can and do know objectively. The only way that we know our senses can be deceived is with our senses. A basic example is perceiving a pencil in water to be crooked. We know that perception to be fallacious by employing a second sense, touch, finding it to be straight. To say that we cannot have objective knowledge becasue we know our senses can be deceived is self-refuting. I highly recommend reading this paper - catholicapologetics.info/catholicteaching/philosophy/askeptic.htm
and this article -
catholic.com/blog/karlo-broussard/how-do-you-know-youre-not-in-the-matrix
Along with the absolutely certain knowledge of the general reliability of our sense perceptions, we have been provided, by God, through the motives of credibility, absolutely certain, definite, and irrefutable knowledge of Divine Revelation and the truth of the Catholic Faith - newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm (scroll down to the subheading “the motives of credibility”, though I encourage reading the entire article :))
Also - therealpresence.org/archives/Church_Dogma/Church_Dogma_026.htm
Indeed, we can and should know things objectively, particularly the general reliability of sense perception, and the truths of the Catholic Faith, which God has revealed (He Who cannot deceive, and cannot be deceived).

As for this atrocity in Orlando, we should not assume their salvation, but should absolutely pray for their eternal life, including the killer himself. We cannot know their eternal dwelling, but we can hope and pray for their entrance into Heaven from Purgatory.
God bless you.
 
Instead of debating where these souls go in a pointless manner, why isn’t our immediate reaction that we need better evangelization?

God has laid out for us a path to heaven, with a church to help us get their with sacraments. We have been told for two thousand years to spread the gospel.
The revealed way to get to heaven has nothing to do with being in a gay club at the time of death. It should invoke three reactions emotionally from us. 1. To pray for the victims. 2. To redouble our efforts in engaging our faith with the world. Be it homosexuals or Muslims. The gospel could have helped all involved.
3. To get our own behinds to confession because we just don’t know when our death can befall us. And we need to be in a state of grace.
 
Cor_ad_Cor said:
I would be quite hesitant to make this statement in such a matter-of-fact manner. I know that is the general teaching of the Church, and I’m not suggesting we live carefree lives of happy-go-lucky sin, but God in His infinite goodness and mercy is not bound by any rule to eternally damn anyone.
Click to expand...
It is a definitive teaching of the Church that having a single mortal sin on your soul at the time of death damns you to Hell. It isn’t some general teaching that has exceptions here and there, it is absolute. The sinner has been given countless graces & opportunities to repent their whole life and even at the point of their death due to God’s infinite goodness & mercy; if they rejected these graces, they receive their punishment in God’s infinite justice. There are accounts of people being brought back to life by the intercession of the Blessed Virgin so they could confess their mortal sin, but this isn’t common.
 
Wow.can we just not pray for the murdered people and skip the lectures…
May their families be consoled.
May our suffering Lord have mercy.
 
In your hands, O Lord,
we humbly entrust our brothers and sisters.
In this life you embraced them with your tender love;
deliver them now from every evil
and bid them eternal rest.

The old order has passed away:
welcome them into paradise,
where there will be no sorrow, no weeping or pain,
but fullness of peace and joy
with your Son and the Holy Spirit
forever and ever.
R/. Amen.
usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/bereavement-and-funerals/prayers-for-death-and-dying.cfm
May they enter Paradise.
 
probablyoutside said:
Where do Catholicism and social justice meet on this issue?

I am just angry. 49 lives cut short. UGH!
Click to expand...
I would respond to this, my friend, by saying a few things: firstly, no matter what behaviors these people may have been engaged in prior to their deaths, we can and should pray for them. They may be in Purgatory, and I hope they are, in need of our prayers to reach God’s Kingdom of joy. Secondly, we should always remember two very important things in conjunction with one another - (1) Homosexual acts are indeed gravely immoral and are not permissible under any circumstances and (2) In the words of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, “The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.” (CCC 2358).
Now, of course, this murderous act was truly evil - no matter what was done on the part of the victims, there is no warrant for their murder, none whatsoever. We should also remember to pray for the soul of the murderer.
My friend, know that my prayers are with you in the battle for chastity and holy purity.

Your brother in Christ,

Kyle
 
probablyoutside said:
So, I’m watching CNN right now and they are showing all of the victims of the Orlando terrorist attack with a moving song. It is heartbreaking.

I’m a bisexual man, in the closet, so in a way I am part of the LGBT community, in a way I’m not. I wasn’t really moved by the attacks until now. I mean, it’s just sad and not fair.

What happened is absolutely horrible. It wasn’t just LGBT individuals who perished, but others of so many backgrounds and experiences.

Maybe I’m wrong in believing this, and only God knows, but I think that Heaven gained 49 souls.** These people were killed, had no way to prepare for their death. **

Personally, I believe that people who had died in tragedies - car crashes, mass shootings, bombings etc. get to Heaven.

These people’s lives were cut short. Dozens were killed and injured, but thousands of lives changed. I mean…it’s ridiculous.

There are so many facets of this massacre - race, sexuality, religion, gun control. I don’t know what to blame for this and where to focus my attention. It seems many are focusing on the LGBT aspect of this, which I am conflicted about. Where do Catholicism and social justice meet on this issue?

I am just angry. 49 lives cut short. UGH!
Click to expand...
That is not correct. Christ told us to always be ready. Everyone, be it those killed in the massacre or others, does have time.
The way to be ready is either not to commit a mortal sin or if in a state of mortal sin then get to Confession as soon as possible.
 
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