Orthodox accept artificial contraception?

[TrueLight]

Eastern Rite Catholics do not, as they are indeed Catholics.

Hmm.

I see that some Eastern Catholics describe themselves as Orthodox in Communion with Rome.

I have also seen some Eastern Catholics say that they follow Orthodox theology.

I would love for some Eastern Catholics to weigh in.

Also, the fact that the Orthodox do allow for contraception in some situations is one example that contradicts the claim that the Orthodox have not changed any of their beliefs or practices, unlike the Catholic Church.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

Also, the fact that the Orthodox do allow for contraception in some situations is one example that contradicts the claim that the Orthodox have not changed any of their beliefs or practices, unlike the Catholic Church.

When did their view change? Was it in the 30s with the protestants?

 

[Marybeloved]

Also, the fact that the Orthodox do allow for contraception in some situations is one example that contradicts the claim that the Orthodox have not changed any of their beliefs or practices, unlike the Catholic Church.

Indeed. That and the remarriage after divorce practice that some call “oikonomia”.

 

[Marybeloved]

When did their view change? Was it in the 30s with the protestants?

I believe it’s in the last 30/40 years or so- not the 1930’s.

I believe also that these novelties (along with the divorce-remarriage one) will eventually be rejected by the Orthodox as a whole.

The thing is, they don’t have the same structure we have, and debate takes on a different shape with them. They debate and build consensus differently- and over a very long period, I think. I’ve seen several critiques of these novelties by some orthodox on the net and I’m hopeful that eventually, they will all be rejected.

That’s what I certainly am hoping for- I know that the CC can not accept these developments as authentic and I’m hoping for unity.

 

[TrueLight]

When did their view change? Was it in the 30s with the protestants?

That’s what I read, but I don’t know for sure. An Orthodox person could probably better answer that.

I found this interesting paragraph on a Greek Orthodox site:

The possible exception to the above affirmation of continuity of teaching is the view of the Orthodox Church on the issue of contraception. Because of the lack of a full understanding of the implications of the biology of reproduction, earlier writers tended to identify abortion with contraception. However, of late a new view has taken hold among Orthodox writers and thinkers on this topic, which permits the use of certain contraceptive practices within marriage for the purpose of spacing children, enhancing the expression of marital love, and protecting health.

 

[grandfather]

Are we hearing from the Orthodox that they have abandoned the teaching of their predecessors to embrace a more enlightened modern libertine view of sexuality, including changing their position on the moraility of contraception?

What was once called evil is now called good and their forebears were in error?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Are we hearing from the Orthodox that they have abandoned the teaching of their predecessors to embrace a more enlightened modern libertine view of sexuality, including changing their position on the moraility of contraception?

What was once called evil is now called good and their forebears were in error?

Could you see yourself defending it?

Peace

 

[Dan_Daly]

Hmm.

I see that some Eastern Catholics describe themselves as Orthodox in Communion with Rome.

I have also seen some Eastern Catholics say that they follow Orthodox theology.

I would love for some Eastern Catholics to weigh in.

Also, the fact that the Orthodox do allow for contraception in some situations is one example that contradicts the claim that the Orthodox have not changed any of their beliefs or practices, unlike the Catholic Church.

Hi Truelight, I hope all is well.

Here’s what I know of the answer to your question:

There are several Eastern Rites in the Catholic Church. The Byzantine is the largest, but there are also others. All but the Maronite Rite (which is named after St. Maron not Our Blessed Mother) were at one point or another in schism. They’ve done what we pray will happen with many other groups…they came back! So if that is what one means by “orthodox in communion with Rome” that would make some sense, but I am not very familiar with the term. There are also several “churches” which have a valid apostolic succession, but are not in full communion with the Catholic Church, what we commonly refer to as “the Orthodox” would again be the largest, but not the only such group. They have actual priests and bishops and valid sacraments. At the same time, as we can see from this discussion on contraception not all of their teaching is orthodox. That is the sad result of seperation from the chair of Peter.

Byzantine Catholics, Maronite Catholics, etc, they are Catholics just as much as you or I or any other Latin Rite Catholic. Without knowing the particulars of those who described themselves as “Orthodox in Communion with Rome” to you, I can’t tell you who they are though.

Pax

 

[TrueLight]

Hi Truelight, I hope all is well.

Here’s what I know of the answer to your question:

There are several Eastern Rites in the Catholic Church. The Byzantine is the largest, but there are also others. All but the Maronite Rite (which is named after St. Maron not Our Blessed Mother) were at one point or another in schism. They’ve done what we pray will happen with many other groups…they came back! So if that is what one means by “orthodox in communion with Rome” that would make some sense, but I am not very familiar with the term. There are also several “churches” which have a valid apostolic succession, but are not in full communion with the Catholic Church, what we commonly refer to as “the Orthodox” would again be the largest, but not the only such group. They have actual priests and bishops and valid sacraments. At the same time, as we can see from this discussion on contraception not all of their teaching is orthodox. That is the sad result of seperation from the chair of Peter.

Byzantine Catholics, Maronite Catholics, etc, they are Catholics just as much as you or I or any other Latin Rite Catholic. Without knowing the particulars of those who described themselves as “Orthodox in Communion with Rome” to you, I can’t tell you who they are though.

Pax

Hello Dan,

Hope all is well with you and the kids as well.

I understand what you’ve posted. My comments are directed at the threads I have seen in the Eastern Catholic forum, where some EC’s have asked whether Eastern Catholics are expected to follow “Latin” doctrine.

I would love some Eastern Catholic (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Dan_Daly]

To get an answer to that question you will need to define “doctrine”.

There are different traditions and laws in the various Catholic Rites (which days are Holy Days of Obligation for example, although that also various in the Latin Rite from place to place). That contraception is a grave evil is a universal truth. If someone tells you they are Catholic but not don’t have to believe contraception is evil, they are wrong.

Hopefully, you get a few Easterners to chime in. I’ll be interested in what they have to say.

Pax

 

[TrueLight]

To get an answer to that question you will need to define “doctrine”.

There are different traditions and laws in the various Catholic Rites (which days are Holy Days of Obligation for example, although that also various in the Latin Rite from place to place). That contraception is a grave evil is a universal truth. If someone tells you they are Catholic but not don’t have to believe contraception is evil, they are wrong.

Hopefully, you get a few Easterners to chime in. I’ll be interested in what they have to say.

Pax

Okay, I’ll make it easy. Let’s just say “teachings” instead of Doctrine.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

All Protestant ecclesial communities held that contraception was a serious sin before 1930. In that year, at their Lambeth Conference, the Anglicans/Episcopalians voted to allow contraception in certain limited circumstances. After that, it became acceptable anytime, and all Protestants have joined the sinners’ chorus.

The Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church stood firm. But now, after centuries of teaching that contraception was strictly forbidden, the Orthodox caved in to the pressures of society.

Flip-flop, flip-flop - contraception was a sin, but now it’s not - flip-flop

*The Orthodox Church *
Timothy Ware (Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia)
First Edition, first printing – 1963 - (pg. 302)

"Artificial methods of birth control are forbidden in the Orthodox Church."*

The Orthodox Church
Timothy Ware (Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia)
First Edition, revised 1984 - (pg. 302)

"The use of contraceptives and other devices for birth control is on the whole strongly discouraged in the Orthodox Church. Some bishops and theologians altogether condemn the employment of such methods. Others, however, have recently begun to adopt a less strict position, and urge that the question is best left to the discretion of each individual couple, in consultation with the spiritual father."

The Orthodox Church
New Edition
Timothy Ware (Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia)
Penguin Books, 1997 - (Pg. 296)

"Concerning contraceptives and other forms of birth control, differing opinions exist within the Orthodox Church. In the past birth control was in general strongly condemned, but today a less strict view is coming to prevail, not only in the west but in traditional Orthodox countries. Many Orthodox theologians and spiritual fathers consider that the responsible use of contraception within marriage is not in itself sinful. In their view, the question of how many children a couple should have, and at what intervals, is best decided by the partners themselves, according to the guidance of their own consciences"

The Catholic Church alone teaches the truth. I explored Orthodoxy before I became a Catholic and concluded that it could not be the True Church because, after 20 centures, it caved in on contraception and now advises couples to practice it.

I found it equally shocking that the Orthodox Churches permit two divorces and three marriages, disregarding Jesus’s teaching that remarriage after divorce in the case of a valid marriage is adultery. The Orthodox clergy actually advise their members to live in adultery.

Oy veh!

 

[Zekariya]

In the Coptic Orthodox Church his grace Bishop Youssef says about birth control: “Family planning can be done without contraceptives using some careful cycle calculations. Copts who correctly observe all the fasts of our church should not have great difficulty controlling birth.”

Source: suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=23&catid=52

Also: “Family planning can be done without contraceptives using some careful cycle calculations. Any contraceptive that has the risk of abortion is not right. Copts who observe correctly all the fasts of our church should not have great difficulty controlling birth.”

suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=816&catid=52

 

[TrueLight]

In the Coptic Orthodox Church his grace Bishop Youssef says about birth control: “Family planning can be done without contraceptives using some careful cycle calculations. Copts who correctly observe all the fasts of our church should not have great difficulty controlling birth.”

Source: suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=23&catid=52

Also: “Family planning can be done without contraceptives using some careful cycle calculations. Any contraceptive that has the risk of abortion is not right. Copts who observe correctly all the fasts of our church should not have great difficulty controlling birth.”

suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=816&catid=52

There must be a lot of fasts.

 

[Zekariya]

There must be a lot of fasts.

We fast more days of the year than not.

Out of the 365 days of the year, the Copts fast over 210 days.

 

[TarkanAttila]

We fast more days of the year than not.

Out of the 365 days of the year, the Copts fast over 210 days.

Little wonder I am so taken aback by it.

Fasting is admirable. But how do you do it???

 

[Zekariya]

Little wonder I am so taken aback by it.

Fasting is admirable. But how do you do it???

Right now I have chronic severe headaches and can’t fast, however, I admire those that do.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Or perhaps the Orthodox do not have such a pessimistic view of sexuality as the Catholics do.

The rest of the reply from which I lifted this sentence is superb; with this particular comment, however, I take issue for one very simple reason: it is utterly and categorically false. Nothing could be further from the truth than the horrifying distortion that the Catholic Church has a “pessimistic” view of sexuality. Lots of rules and a deep concern for them does not equal pessimism. One might as well say that the Orthodox Church is “pessimistic” about the Holy Eucharist because it has such strict rules on who can receive. That would, of course, be absurd.

Christ is the helmsman of the Church. Never once in the liturgy have I seen the bishop of Rome mentioned, much less called the guide of the ship.

Actually, in the Roman Rite the pope is mentioned in the Eucharistic Prayer. I think this is true in the Divine Liturgies of (many) eastern Catholic churches, too.

That doesn’t disprove your actual point; I just wanted to clarify that the bishop of Rome is in fact mentioned in many apostolic churches’ liturgies.

Indeed. That and the remarriage after divorce practice that some call “oikonomia”.

In their defense, “oikonomia” is a valid concept when applied properly.

 

[Hesychios]

I found it equally shocking that the Orthodox Churches permit two divorces and three marriages, disregarding Jesus’s teaching that remarriage after divorce in the case of a valid marriage is adultery.

This is not correct.

I have seen Roman Catholics present this mis-stated argument here at CAF before, too many times.

In some cases ther injured party in a divorce is allowed another chance at marriage. This is not something everyone can avail themselves of.

So the church does not ‘allow’ two divorces, it would be one chance for some people to start over if the bishop can agree.

It is also a sensitive pastoral act of forgiveness and healing, not a right to be claimed by anyone. It is a chance to start a normal life again, plugged in to the church and her life-giving sacraments.

Sometimes, in the event of death, the widow or widower can marry again, so in some circumstance that would make is possible for some people (depending …) to have been married three times in life.

Since the Roman Catholic and Protestant churches also allow widows and widowers to marry again, I do not see that as an issue.

So the question is, ‘what about that marriage after a divorce?’

It was the practice of the Eastern Catholic churches before the schism, a time for which the Papacy claims all were under the Supreme Pontiff’s office and supreme authority.

So the claim that the ‘Catholic Church’ never allowed it is not true.

It seems that the Papacy was very comfortable with this dual system of one divorce in the east vs declaration of nullity in the west. In fact, Cardinal’s Humbert and Frederic, who composed a scathing condemnation against the east (replete with scandalous lies) when they fomented the schism, never even mention this Eastern Catholic practice as a problem. The two men wouldn’t have even had to make it up, they could have just presented the facts and candemned them!

The Roman Catholic church has chosen to nullify it’s own sacraments, or rather to declare it’s own sacrament to have always been null from the beginning. This is convenient in that once the marriage ‘not-really’ fails, both partners ‘not-really’ can get remarried under the system regardless of who was at fault and who was the injured partner** ‘not-really’**.

The Orthodox clergy actually advise their members to live in adultery.

Oy veh!

This is calumny.

If you have a reference, you had better present it or withdraw the claim.

 

[Cavaradossi]

All Protestant ecclesial communities held that contraception was a serious sin before 1930. In that year, at their Lambeth Conference, the Anglicans/Episcopalians voted to allow contraception in certain limited circumstances. After that, it became acceptable anytime, and all Protestants have joined the sinners’ chorus.

The Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church stood firm. But now, after centuries of teaching that contraception was strictly forbidden, the Orthodox caved in to the pressures of society.

Flip-flop, flip-flop - contraception was a sin, but now it’s not - flip-flop

*The Orthodox Church *
Timothy Ware (Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia)
First Edition, first printing – 1963 - (pg. 302)

"Artificial methods of birth control are forbidden in the Orthodox Church."*

The Orthodox Church
Timothy Ware (Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia)
First Edition, revised 1984 - (pg. 302)

"The use of contraceptives and other devices for birth control is on the whole strongly discouraged in the Orthodox Church. Some bishops and theologians altogether condemn the employment of such methods. Others, however, have recently begun to adopt a less strict position, and urge that the question is best left to the discretion of each individual couple, in consultation with the spiritual father."

The Orthodox Church
New Edition
Timothy Ware (Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia)
Penguin Books, 1997 - (Pg. 296)

"Concerning contraceptives and other forms of birth control, differing opinions exist within the Orthodox Church. In the past birth control was in general strongly condemned, but today a less strict view is coming to prevail, not only in the west but in traditional Orthodox countries. Many Orthodox theologians and spiritual fathers consider that the responsible use of contraception within marriage is not in itself sinful. In their view, the question of how many children a couple should have, and at what intervals, is best decided by the partners themselves, according to the guidance of their own consciences"

The Catholic Church alone teaches the truth. I explored Orthodoxy before I became a Catholic and concluded that it could not be the True Church because, after 20 centures, it caved in on contraception and now advises couples to practice it.

I found it equally shocking that the Orthodox Churches permit two divorces and three marriages, disregarding Jesus’s teaching that remarriage after divorce in the case of a valid marriage is adultery. The Orthodox clergy actually advise their members to live in adultery.

Oy veh!

As if the annulment factories do not do the same thing. But perhaps the Catholic Church really believes that it possesses the power to cleave two who were one flesh because of some perceived defect during the sacrament of matrimony, and declare that the marriage never happened (how that can possibly nullify the fact that the two still had sexual relations, and that they are engaging in adultery should they marry again is beyond me).

Oy Vey!