Orthodox and birth control

[StMarina303ad]

Newlywed Orthodox couple, don’t want children for X amounts of years because they want to enjoy being “young”/further their careers/want to buy a house/you choose. The guy agrees to condoms and the woman to “birth control” pills for this period of **X **years.

Are they commiting sin if they proceed down this course of action?

Would our Orthodox bretheren answer this question so we can all be on the same page, at least for a while.

There are no “set” or “standard” answers. I know how much Catholics love a “by the book” answer; however, Orthodoxy is much more personal than that.

Orthodoxy is the relationship between the person (or couple) and the Triune God. The couple would, in living their faith, pray about it and consult their spiritual father to determine what is best for their situation. They will discuss the how their decision will affect them right now, in the future (of this world) and for all eternity. It’s eternity that matters most in every decision we make, although we still must consider the future and the now.

On a side note: I think that some birth control pills can cause abortions and abortions obviously would not be acceptable as 1 abortion traditionally keeps a person excommunicated for decades. Although the Orthodox Church, like Christ, is merciful and the excommunication can be reduced by one’s spiritual father.

The Orthodox Church is likened to a Hospital not a Court Room.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

There are no “set” or “standard” answers. I know how much Catholics love a “by the book” answer; however, Orthodoxy is much more personal than that.

Orthodoxy is the relationship between the person (or couple) and the Triune God. The couple would, in living their faith, pray about it and consult their spiritual father to determine what is best for their situation. They will discuss the how their decision will affect them right now, in the future (of this world) and for all eternity. It’s eternity that matters most in every decision we make, although we still must consider the future and the now.

On a side note: I think that some birth control pills can cause abortions and abortions obviously would not be acceptable as 1 abortion traditionally keeps a person excommunicated for decades. Although the Orthodox Church, like Christ, is merciful and the excommunication can be reduced by one’s spiritual father.

The Orthodox Church is likened to a Hospital not a Court Room.

Obviously, the ones that cause abortions are wrong, but the ones that don’t (condoms, etc).

I see in your answer is moral relativism which cannot be the mode to true Christian living.

 

[StMarina303ad]

Obviously, the ones that cause abortions are wrong, but the ones that don’t (condoms, etc).

I see in your answer is moral relativism which cannot be the mode to true Christian living.

Again you are attempting to take this from a personal spiritual level to a “by the book” level.

My answer has nothing to do with moral relativism, although I can see that you’ve tried very hard to boil it down to that.

What you seem to miss is that every decision we make in life has a spiritual element or consequence. Important decisions such as marriage and family must not be taken lightly as you seem to be attempting to do.

Decisions such as these must be made together as a couple, must be made in light of the teachings of the Church with the personal spiritual direction of the couple’s own spiritual father.

You want to remove the Church and one’s spiritual father from the decision making process - it can’t be done!

You appear to have a very Protestant mindset on this issue…“I can make the decision on my own without the help of a spiritual father without the help of the Church.” This type of “by the book or else” thinking is what was going on in the Catholic Church when it gave birth to the 30,000 + Protestant Churches.

Why don’t you meet with an Orthodox Priest and ask him to refer you to a spiritual father, then begin attending Divine Liturgy for a year while regularly meeting with your spiritual father so you have time to soak in the truths of the Church and so your spiritual father has time to get to know you and your personal spiritual situation and then ask him about birth control? You probably won’t because you don’t want your heart to be softened by the love of the Holy Trinity through the Church. You probably don’t want anyone to know you that intimately that they can give you spiritual direction in this and other matters. You’d rather assume you know. You’d rather there be a set answer regardless of the personal spiritual situation of the individuals affected.

The spiritual life is not a mathematics equation. The spiritual life is not as easy as x + x = y. God created each one of us completely unique: in our soul as well as physically. Only the Holy Spirit by way of the Church through one’s spiritual father can address the entire unique person or couple.

You are missing out on the truth. I pray for you.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Again you are attempting to take this from a personal spiritual level to a “by the book” level.

My answer has nothing to do with moral relativism, although I can see that you’ve tried very hard to boil it down to that.

What you seem to miss is that every decision we make in life has a spiritual element or consequence. Important decisions such as marriage and family must not be taken lightly as you seem to be attempting to do.

Decisions such as these must be made together as a couple, must be made in light of the teachings of the Church with the personal spiritual direction of the couple’s own spiritual father.

You want to remove the Church and one’s spiritual father from the decision making process - it can’t be done!

You appear to have a very Protestant mindset on this issue…“I can make the decision on my own without the help of a spiritual father without the help of the Church.” This type of “by the book or else” thinking is what was going on in the Catholic Church when it gave birth to the 30,000 + Protestant Churches.

Why don’t you meet with an Orthodox Priest and ask him to refer you to a spiritual father, then begin attending Divine Liturgy for a year while regularly meeting with your spiritual father so you have time to soak in the truths of the Church and so your spiritual father has time to get to know you and your personal spiritual situation and then ask him about birth control? You probably won’t because you don’t want your heart to be softened by the love of the Holy Trinity through the Church. You probably don’t want anyone to know you that intimately that they can give you spiritual direction in this and other matters. You’d rather assume you know. You’d rather there be a set answer regardless of the personal spiritual situation of the individuals affected.

The spiritual life is not a mathematics equation. The spiritual life is not as easy as x + x = y. God created each one of us completely unique: in our soul as well as physically. Only the Holy Spirit by way of the Church through one’s spiritual father can address the entire unique person or couple.

You are missing out on the truth. I pray for you.

I don’t think so.

You have to appeal to ad hominem arguments since the Orthodox position is weak (and flat out wrong) on this issue of morality.

 

[steve_b]

I just don’t get how that Catholic Church can say in the same breath: “Your marriage was never valid so you can have an annulment, but your children are legit.”

Can a couple enter into a valid contract but not a sacrament? Yes or No?

Marina:

Illegitimacy is being born outside of a valid marriage - so either the Catholic Church needs to recognize that the children are illegitiment when the parents divorce civily and obtain Catholic Church Annulments or they need to create a new word to describe such children of invalid unions.

In the eyes of the state the couple did what they needed to do for a valid marriage. The children are legitimate. The state could care less about what a sacrament is. The Church however, is MOST interested in the sacrament.

Catholics don’t believe the Church marries you. Anymore than reverend Sam of the church of what’s happening now, or Captain Hook on the good ship loly pop marries anyone. Although they fill the state’s requirements for validity.

In the Church’s eyes, The spouses give the sacrament to each other in the presence of God. Therefore the sacrament is based on form, the integrity and character of the spouses, and their ability to give the sacrament to each other…

If a divorce, the tribunal determines in a rigorous investigation of both spouses whether a sacrament took place. The Church does NOT undo a sacrament.

Marina:

Now we all know that Jesus allowed for divorce…“in cases of infidelity”,

think about that for a moment.

Is adultery a loophole Jesus slips in?

IOW, sometime after you’re married, If you want a divorce because you’re tired of the person you’re married to and want a spiffier model, all you have to do is go out and comit adultery, then come home and say, gee honey I’ve committed adultery let’s get divorced. And that’s all there is to the loophole? You comit adultery, get a divorce, remarry, and it’s perfectly acceptable? You really think that’s what Jesus allows, and what He meant by porneia?

I…don’t…think…so!

Marina:

but the Catholic Church does not. I’m thinking that the Catholic Church thinks of itself as holier than God? Perish the thought.

Oh P…L…E…A…S…E!

 

[steve_b]

Yes. It is very legalistic.
LOL!!! Your little example is a far cry from the Catholic marriage tribunals.

Those in glass houses…
oca.org/DOCstatute.asp?SID=12&ID=11

 

[StMarina303ad]

In the eyes of the state the couple did what they needed to do for a valid marriage. The children are legitimate. The state could care less about what a sacrament is. The Church however, is MOST interested in the sacrament.

Oh, thanks for clearing that up. Children of a Catholic Church Annuled Marriage are legitimate only in the eyes of the State, not the Church aka God.

So when the Church says they are legitimate, the Church just means that it will not over step the bounds of the State and force the State to call them illegitimate. Makes sense since in the U.S. and many other countries even if the Catholic Church claimed to have that kind of authority, it doesn’t. Not since the Dark Ages.

THANK YOU GOD FOR THE ORTHODOX CHURCH! You have blessed us with not having to deal this type of non-sense!

 

[StMarina303ad]

think about that for a moment.

Is adultery a loophole Jesus slips in?

IOW, sometime after you’re married, If you want a divorce because you’re tired of the person you’re married to and want a spiffier model, all you have to do is go out and comit adultery, then come home and say, gee honey I’ve committed adultery let’s get divorced. And that’s all there is to the loophole? You comit adultery, get a divorce, remarry, and it’s perfectly acceptable? You really think that’s what Jesus allows, and what He meant by porneia?

Sure if you want to risk your soul for all eternity.

Seriously thought, Jesus gives the option for divorce for those who would otherwise be stuck in a marriage where their spouse is the one having the affair. Jesus is always out (read Scripture) to protect the innocent to be a champion to those in need, not to reward the sinners.

 

[Peter_J]

Seriously thought, Jesus gives the option for divorce for those who would otherwise be stuck in a marriage where their spouse is the one having the affair.

That’s a reasonable interpretation of the scripture, but not the only reasonable interpretation. I for one don’t consider it to be the correct interpretation.

 

[Peter_J]

Newlywed Orthodox couple, don’t want children for X amounts of years because they want to enjoy being “young”/further their careers/want to buy a house/you choose. The guy agrees to condoms and the woman to “birth control” pills for this period of **X **years.

Are they commiting sin if they proceed down this course of action?

Would our Orthodox bretheren answer this question so we can all be on the same page, at least for a while.

Chaldean Rite, I won’t speak for my Orthodox brethren, but I’ll be happy to tell you the Catholic take on that situation: Namely that course of action would be material sin; whether or not it is actual sin cannot be determined from the information you’ve provided.

 

[steve_b]

Oh, thanks for clearing that up. Children of a Catholic Church Annuled Marriage are legitimate only in the eyes of the State, not the Church aka God.

Did I say the Church does NOT accept the children as legitimate? No.

Can a couple enter into a contract and not a sacrament? Yes or No?

Marina:

So when the Church says they are legitimate, the Church just means that it will not over step the bounds of the State and force the State to call them illegitimate.

Did I say that? NO!!!

Marina:

Makes sense since in the U.S. and many other countries even if the Catholic Church claimed to have that kind of authority, it doesn’t. Not since the Dark Ages.

THANK YOU GOD FOR THE ORTHODOX CHURCH! You have blessed us with not having to deal this type of non-sense!

What you did answer of my post you distorted. And the rest you just ignored. That’s nonsense.

I think you would do well to familiarize yourself with what the Church actually teaches rather than shoot from the hip
stcdio.org/annulment.htm

 

[Peter_J]

Oh, thanks for clearing that up. Children of a Catholic Church Annuled Marriage are legitimate only in the eyes of the State, not the Church aka God.

So when the Church says they are legitimate, the Church just means that it will not over step the bounds of the State and force the State to call them illegitimate. Makes sense since in the U.S. and many other countries even if the Catholic Church claimed to have that kind of authority, it doesn’t. Not since the Dark Ages.

THANK YOU GOD FOR THE ORTHODOX CHURCH! You have blessed us with not having to deal this type of non-sense!

As I understand it (I’ve never really researched this) the Church doesn’t describe anyone as illegitimate – and after all, why would she? Why would she say someone is “illegitimate” based on something his or her parents did? Countries and societies call people “legitimate” or “illegitimate” based on their laws and customs. (So I guess technically instead of saying “so-and-so is illegitimate” we should say “so-and-so is illegitimate according to the United States” or whatever the relevant country is.)

Hypothetically a couple could have a perfectly valid sacramental marriage but not a legal marriage in the eye of their country, which would call their children “illegitimate”.

 

[Peter_J]

stcdio.org/annulment.htm

I guess I should have checked out the link before posting:

The laws of the Church state that children born of a supposedly valid union are legitimate children. Therefore, if the marriage is later shown to have been invalid, the status of the children remains unchanged: they are legitimate.

So I guess the Diocese of St. Cloud website disagrees with my statement that “the Church doesn’t describe anyone as illegitimate.”

(I’ll try to look into this some more.)

 

[steve_b]

So I guess the Diocese of St. Cloud website disagrees with my statement that “the Church doesn’t describe anyone as illegitimate.”

(I’ll try to look into this some more.)

I don’t see the disagreement. Here is what is said regarding children (emphasis mine)

:

2. Does an annulment have anything to do with civil law?
No. In the United States, a declaration that a marriage was invalid from the start has no effect before the laws of any state. It does not affect anything that is determined by civil law such as alimony, child custody, visitation rights, division of property, legitimacy of the children, etc. It pertains only to the internal governance of the Catholic Church.

3. Does an annulment affect the legitimacy of children?
No. The legitimacy of children is determined by the laws of the states. Just as a divorce does not make children illegitimate, neither does an annulment granted by the Church. The laws of the Church state that children born of a supposedly valid union are legitimate children. Therefore, if the marriage is later shown to have been invalid, the status of the children remains unchanged: they are legitimate.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

My answer has nothing to do with moral relativism

Yes, it is based upon it

What you seem to miss is that every decision we make in life has a spiritual element or consequence. Important decisions such as marriage and family must not be taken lightly as you seem to be attempting to do.

Decisions such as these must be made together as a couple, must be made in light of the teachings of the Church with the personal spiritual direction of the couple’s own spiritual father.

You want to remove the Church and one’s spiritual father from the decision making process - it can’t be done!

I have not missed anything. You have not provided a clear answer to any of the points brought up in this thread. All you’ve provided is this spaghetti theology that tries to make some sense out of your church teachings (or lack thereof!) in these issues.

You appear to have a very Protestant mindset on this issue…“I can make the decision on my own without the help of a spiritual father without the help of the Church.” This type of “by the book or else” thinking is what was going on in the Catholic Church when it gave birth to the 30,000 + Protestant Churches.

No, you and the Protestants actually stand side by side on this one it appears. Makes sense, both broke away from the Church that Jesus Christ founded upon Rock, St. Peter…

Why don’t you meet with an Orthodox Priest and ask him to refer you to a spiritual father, then begin attending Divine Liturgy for a year while regularly meeting with your spiritual father so you have time to soak in the truths of the Church and so your spiritual father has time to get to know you and your personal spiritual situation and then ask him about birth control? You probably won’t because you don’t want your heart to be softened by the love of the Holy Trinity through the Church. You probably don’t want anyone to know you that intimately that they can give you spiritual direction in this and other matters. You’d rather assume you know. You’d rather there be a set answer regardless of the personal spiritual situation of the individuals affected.

The spiritual life is not a mathematics equation. The spiritual life is not as easy as x + x = y. God created each one of us completely unique: in our soul as well as physically. Only the Holy Spirit by way of the Church through one’s spiritual father can address the entire unique person or couple.

You are missing out on the truth. I pray for you.

Why don’t you NEVER suggest I go to an Orthodox priest again for spiritual counseling?chrome://dictionarytip/skin/book.png

 

[Peter_J]

Canon 1137 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law tells us that “Children who are conceived or born of a valid or of a putative marriage are legitimate.” (A putative marriage being an apparently, but not actually, valid marriage which is entered into in good faith by at least one of the partners.)

 

[Jennifer_J]

Legitamacy is only relevant to inheritance and has nothing to do with Church teaching en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegitimacy

It really has no place in this discussion and the topic of divorce is not the OP’s question.

 

[Peter_J]

It really has no place in this discussion and the topic of divorce is not the OP’s question.

True. As a matter of fact, I don’t remember how we got to talking about divorce.