Orthodox and Catholic converts: have you ever struggled between the two?

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Interesting. Thank you for sharing! Which orthodox church do you attend in Sydney? What did it require to convert?
St Catherine’s in Mascot. I was received by chrismation.

Some background:
I met my wife in a Baptist Church, she is Greek but only raised nominally Orthodox, with all her school education at Catholic schools. Shortly after our marriage in the Anglican Church we moved to Greece where she and her sister started a private English school. We initially attended an evangelical church in Thessaloniki. While they were beautiful people, we found the worship to be lacking and at that stage my wife began investigating her Orthodox roots. We began to attend the local Orthodox Church which is where my initial culture shock hit hard and my own investigations began. In three years we had baptised our first child followed not long after by an Orthodox crowning, basically our marriage was given the Grace of the Orthodox Church. It was not long after we had baptised our second child that I came to the conclusion that I no longer disagreed with any of the teaching or praxis of the Orthodox Church, and as this Church was there from the beginning, that was where I needed to be. I was received into the Church not long after. My decision took my wife by surprise as she was not pushing me in any way.
I cannot express in a short post the abundance of Grace I have received since then nor the superabundance of Grace I have witnessed through the saints of the Church in others.
 
No, I did not call you a hypocrite for disliking the close ties between nationalism and some Orthodox churches. I merely argued that it was hypocritical to say that it was something exclusive or near exclusive to Orthodoxy. Catholicism was used in post-Napoleonic France as a form of nationalism. The papacy for many years in the 19th century was used as a rallying point for Italian nationalism. Catholicism to this day is still used by the Spanish monarchy to promote national integrity and unity, while the monarchy actively persecutes and tortures political dissidents. All I am saying is that history shows that Catholicism is just as prone to this problem as Orthodoxy. Therefore, to reject Orthodoxy on these charges of caesaropapism or anything similar of the sort, would logically require you to reject Catholicism as well.
The Spanish monarchy actively persecutes and tortures political dissidents? 🤷 Uh…I think not. Spain has a largely secularized culture today and a constitutional monarchy that does not have much of an active role in society whether positively or negatively. It once did persecute other minority religious groups savagely, as did Franco but I think you ought to go on holiday to Spain if you think its still the case…
 
As I mentioned above in post # 19, caesaropapism was never accepted in the Orthodox Church. When emperors attempted to force their will on the Eastern churches, particularly in dogmatic and liturgical matters, the end result was generally a big feud between the two. If caesaropapism really was an acceptable practice, then the Orthodox Church would never have rejected the Council of Florence, and thus would be part of the Catholic Church today. As we all know, that never happened.

The charges of caesaropapism against the Orthodox Church are grossly exaggerated, and really are no different from the close alliances between kings, emperors, and popes in the Latin West throughout its history. Remove the log from your own eye, before you try to remove the speck from your brother’s.
Isn’t it ironic, especially when you consider the historical foundation of the term caesaropapism.
 
As for what someone said earlier about caesaropapism, that is generally a mischaracterization of the Byzantine Church. Yes, emperor and patriarch worked in close conjunction, but generally they often battled one another as well.

Russia indeed though is certainly a troubling situation. Czar Peter the Great abolished the patriarchal throne during his reign and simply made a council instead. The patriarch of Moscow only came back during the early 20th century, and since then has really been nothing more than a puppet of the Russian state. All this being said though, luckily the Russian Orthodox Church is not the only Orthodox Church. The prestigious Mt. Athos monastic community has even issued an anathema against the Kirill of Moscow and his thuggish lackies. Many within the Orthodox world really dislike Putin and the leadership of the Russian Orthodox Church.
I am very glad to hear this about Patriarch Kirill vis-à-vis the monks of Mt. Athos, whom I have always respected, especially elder Paisios who I hear was canonized this year 😃
 
Therefore, to reject Orthodoxy on these charges of caesaropapism or anything similar of the sort, would logically require you to reject Catholicism as well.
You are indeed right that secular rulers have often interfered in ecclesiastical settings in the Western Church as well. One only has to consider the Avignon Papacy and the excessive influence of Philip the Fair on the pope. Certainly, I wasn’t trying to intimate that this problem hasn’t occurred in Catholicism. However it would be hard to argue that the victory of the Gregorian Reform in the Investiture Contest did not result in a significant change in church-state relations that is unparalleled in the Orthodox world.

Caeseropapism is not part of Orthodox theology, indeed ‘phyletism’ is condemned as a heresy. Since it is not part of Orthodox dogma, this is not in any way a critique of Orthodoxy itself. It is rather a reflection that the ecclesiastical structure of Orthodoxy lends itself more easily to a caeseropapist mould than the state-like centralized bureaucracy of the Catholic Church under a Holy See that is in theory an independent diplomatic actor headed by a bishop who claims the plenitudo potestatis (fullness of power). While the papacy has come under secular influence, it has been almost impossible to keep it as such for long in view of this dogmatic precept in Catholic theology. As a result church-state relations have been far more fraught in the West since the Bishop of Rome has been in a far stronger position to contest imperial or national claims to spiritual as well as temporal authority. What Orthodox Patriarch has ever attained the zenith of power reached by the papacy in the High Middle Ages?

European kings and emperors had a genuine challenge from the papacy that is unparalleled in any other part of the world. The papacy was for a time the only true ‘state’ in Europe, the only modernized, buraecratized entity governed by law. This created an odd sort of ‘balance’ in Europe, in which secular and religious authority could at times be on a ‘level playing’ field that was ultimately conducive to the emergence of the rule of law and constitutionalism.

If I may reference a secular source from a book by the political scientist Francis Fukuyama titled The Origins of Political Order:
"…The equivalent of the investiture contest and the Gregorian reform never took place in the Byzantine world. The Eastern church failed to develop a state-like bureaucracy by which it could promulgate law, and did not succeed in codifying its decretals into a uniform canon law in the manner of the Catholic Church…Autonomy is a hallmark of institutional development, and here law in the West became far more developed than its counterparts elsewhere. No other part of the world experienced the equivalent of the Gregorian Reform and the investiture conflict in the which the entire hierarchy of a church engaged in a prolonged political conflict with the temporal ruler and ended up stalemating the latter. The resulting settlement, the Concordat of Worms, ensured autonomy for the church as an institution and gave it considerable incentive to develop its own bureaucracy and formal rules. Thus in premodern times, the rule of law became a far more powerful check on the power of temporal rulers in Western Europe than was the case in the Middle East, India, or in the Eastern Orthodox Church. This had significant implications for the later development of free institutions there…The modern legal order [therefore] had its roots in the fight waged by the Catholic Church against the emperor in the late eleventh century, and the first bureaucratic organizations were created by the church to manage its own internal affairs…The Catholic Church had became far more institutionalized in terms of its adaptability, complexity, autonomy, and coherence than the religious establishments of any of the other world religions…"
This is one of the major points that draws me towards Catholicism rather than Orthodoxy. I genuinely like the fact that the pope is in a position, especially today with the independent Vatican city-state, to challenge secular authority in a manner that is inconceivable for Orthodox leaders.

The papacy is a fully independent, self-governing, autonomous actor in world affairs today whereas the same cannot be said for contemporary Orthodox patriarchates. For me this is a draw in confronting secular powers, whether that be on religious freedom, abortion, labour rights, climate change or a host of other issues. The papacy is an asset for me.

As an example, consider Pope Benedict XV during WW1. In most parts of Europe, churches - including the respective local Catholic Bishops - all followed the same hymn sheets as their countries. German churches were patriotic for Germany, English churches patriotic for England, Russians for Russia and etc.

The papacy did not have an independent ‘state’ at this point (it had lost it a few decades previously and had to wait till 1929 to get its next one) but the Holy See was a recognised autonomous subject of international law, with its unique diplomatic voice. As a result the papacy could and did remain neutral, condemning the war as the “suicide of civilized Europe”. A tribute engraved at the foot of a statue to him that the Turks, a non-Catholic, non-Christian people, erected in Istanbul reads: “The great Pope of the world tragedy… the benefactor of all people, irrespective of nationality or religion.” Pope Benedict XV could not have acted so independently and universally, to my mind, unless his office claimed a universal power and had an independent voice on the world stage.

This is why I see the papacy’s relative independence from secular authority and its centralized power structure as an assert in the worldwide dissemination of the the Gospel.
 
I found the Catholic Church to be more welcoming and racially diverse. I feel comfortable and at home in a Catholic Church.

Where I lived when I was considering conversion there were different EO churches but they appeared to cater for distinct nationalities. I went to one but everything was in Russian. I suppose no different than attending a Latin Mass but I felt really out of place being the only black person there. I’m sure they are not all like that but that was my experience.

That isn’t the reason I chose the Catholic Church as I don’t believe being comfortable or feeling welcome or entertained should be a reason to choose a church. For me the holy spirit guided me towards the CC. Looking back there was a clear pattern of the Holy Spirits intervention in the guise of Catholic friends and mentors who actually lived the faith.

So no there wasn’t a struggle. As I learned more about Orthodoxy I was surprised at how similar and close it is to Catholicism. If I couldn’t be Catholic, I would be Orthodox.
 
Good point! I just wondered how they determined Linus was “their” first pope and what happened to their Papal authority.
From the Orthodox point of view, papal authority as it’s known today didn’t exist until recently. Therefore, nothing “happened” to it in the sense that it was lost or abolished.
 
St Catherine’s in Mascot. I was received by chrismation.

Some background:
I met my wife in a Baptist Church, she is Greek but only raised nominally Orthodox, with all her school education at Catholic schools. Shortly after our marriage in the Anglican Church we moved to Greece where she and her sister started a private English school. We initially attended an evangelical church in Thessaloniki. While they were beautiful people, we found the worship to be lacking and at that stage my wife began investigating her Orthodox roots. We began to attend the local Orthodox Church which is where my initial culture shock hit hard and my own investigations began. In three years we had baptised our first child followed not long after by an Orthodox crowning, basically our marriage was given the Grace of the Orthodox Church. It was not long after we had baptised our second child that I came to the conclusion that I no longer disagreed with any of the teaching or praxis of the Orthodox Church, and as this Church was there from the beginning, that was where I needed to be. I was received into the Church not long after. My decision took my wife by surprise as she was not pushing me in any way.
I cannot express in a short post the abundance of Grace I have received since then nor the superabundance of Grace I have witnessed through the saints of the Church in others.
That is a beautiful story of your faith journey. Thank you for sharing it.
Peace be with you!
 
At least from a cultural shock point of view, since it was mentioned, it wasn’t a barrier for me at all. I’m a Korean yet I go to a parish that have Russians, Romanians, Bulgarians, those of Jewish origin and just general white Americans. I honestly stick out like a sore thumb. Even so, I fell in love with the Divine Liturgy and parish in general when I went there for the first time. After that, any cultural divide just became a distant memory.

And I am raised with a western mindset with heavy Catholic learnings as I wholeheartedly embraced Catholic teaching for several years (still am ;)). Even so, I instantly fell in love with the Eastern Orthodox tradition. I just somehow felt right at home even though I was much less familiar with it.

After going to DL for the first time (when I was still pursuing Catholicism) I remember me thinking that I wished I could become an Eastern Catholic. The Latin Rite just didn’t feel appropriate for me.

But for the general OP question, no I did not have any hurdles in choosing one independently, just when they are in comparison with each other. When I initially pursued Catholicism, I had no problems accepting the Papacy or any other doctrines. As long as I saw that it was true, I absorbed it like a sponge. It wasn’t whether I could accept certain doctrines but whether I saw them as authentic to the true church or not.
 
From the Orthodox point of view, papal authority as it’s known today didn’t exist until recently. Therefore, nothing “happened” to it in the sense that it was lost or abolished.
Thank you for your reply! On another thread someone posted Linus was their first pope. Was Linus a significant person in the early Orthodox church? I have heard of him, but I do not know much about him and maybe the poster on the other thread was not knowledgeable either.
 
I found the Catholic Church to be more welcoming and racially diverse. I feel comfortable and at home in a Catholic Church.

Where I lived when I was considering conversion there were different EO churches but they appeared to cater for distinct nationalities. I went to one but everything was in Russian. I suppose no different than attending a Latin Mass but I felt really out of place being the only black person there. I’m sure they are not all like that but that was my experience.

That isn’t the reason I chose the Catholic Church as I don’t believe being comfortable or feeling welcome or entertained should be a reason to choose a church. For me the holy spirit guided me towards the CC. Looking back there was a clear pattern of the Holy Spirits intervention in the guise of Catholic friends and mentors who actually lived the faith.

So no there wasn’t a struggle. As I learned more about Orthodoxy I was surprised at how similar and close it is to Catholicism. If I couldn’t be Catholic, I would be Orthodox.
Same here. I would definitely be Eastern Orthodox if I couldn’t be Catholic, followed by Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Church of the East. These are all apostolic churches with valid sacraments, apostolic succession, liturgies and traditions.
 
Thank you for your reply! On another thread someone posted Linus was their first pope. Was Linus a significant person in the early Orthodox church? I have heard of him, but I do not know much about him and maybe the poster on the other thread was not knowledgeable either.
I’d like to see the context of that post. I’ve heard it said that St. Peter was one of the 12 apostles and so St. Linus was technically the first person with the title “Bishop of Rome.” But I have no idea how historically accurate that is.

In any case, the Orthodox and Catholic churches were the same church until the 11th century, so whoever was the first pope of one was also the first pope of the other.
 
I’d like to see the context of that post. I’ve heard it said that St. Peter was one of the 12 apostles and so St. Linus was technically the first person with the title “Bishop of Rome.” But I have no idea how historically accurate that is.

In any case, the Orthodox and Catholic churches were the same church until the 11th century, so whoever was the first pope of one was also the first pope of the other.
You make an excellent point! I can’t remember the thread title. Sorry.
Linus became Pope after Peter then? You are right. They were the same church back then.
 
Of course what never gets mentioned is the fact that all the Eastern rites combined make up barely half of 1% of the Catholic Church. Over 99% of the Church is Latin rite.
Well… over 2/3s of Eastern Christianity was converted or killed thanks mainly to the Muslims over the centuries. I wonder how much of that fact contributes to the lack of Eastern Catholics?

Who knows what would have happened if the Middle East was still Christian. Perhaps we would have reunited? Or perhaps not?

But I find it interesting that the Muslims were never able to conquer lands in union with the See of Peter. But now that more and more of western Europe is abandoning the Church and even Christianity, the Muslim threat to Western Europe is becoming greater than ever.

I also think it’s a miracle that the Eastern European nations that are Orthodox and were once taken over by the Turks are still Christian. Thank God they are not all Muslim today (though a few of the smaller ones are).

But it’s time for us Apostolic Churches to focus on what we have in common and reunite. Only together will we be strong enough to fight the forces of darkness that are attacking the world.
God Bless
 
At least from a cultural shock point of view, since it was mentioned, it wasn’t a barrier for me at all. I’m a Korean yet I go to a parish that have Russians, Romanians, Bulgarians, those of Jewish origin and just general white Americans. I honestly stick out like a sore thumb. Even so, I fell in love with the Divine Liturgy and parish in general when I went there for the first time. After that, any cultural divide just became a distant memory.

And I am raised with a western mindset with heavy Catholic learnings as I wholeheartedly embraced Catholic teaching for several years (still am ;)). Even so, I instantly fell in love with the Eastern Orthodox tradition. I just somehow felt right at home even though I was much less familiar with it.

After going to DL for the first time (when I was still pursuing Catholicism) I remember me thinking that I wished I could become an Eastern Catholic. The Latin Rite just didn’t feel appropriate for me.

But for the general OP question, no I did not have any hurdles in choosing one independently, just when they are in comparison with each other. When I initially pursued Catholicism, I had no problems accepting the Papacy or any other doctrines. As long as I saw that it was true, I absorbed it like a sponge. It wasn’t whether I could accept certain doctrines but whether I saw them as authentic to the true church or not.
I’m also raised with Catholic learnings even though I’ve always been a Protestant in my entire life. I have similar case as you do. Just what you’ve written is.

Although sometime i seem to doubt, most of the time i know i want to stay being Orthodox. But i have my moment too 😦
 
Well… over 2/3s of Eastern Christianity was converted or killed thanks mainly to the Muslims over the centuries. I wonder how much of that fact contributes to the lack of Eastern Catholics?

Who knows what would have happened if the Middle East was still Christian. Perhaps we would have reunited? Or perhaps not?

But I find it interesting that the Muslims were never able to conquer lands in union with the See of Peter. But now that more and more of western Europe is abandoning the Church and even Christianity, the Muslim threat to Western Europe is becoming greater than ever.

I also think it’s a miracle that the Eastern European nations that are Orthodox and were once taken over by the Turks are still Christian. Thank God they are not all Muslim today (though a few of the smaller ones are).

But it’s time for us Apostolic Churches to focus on what we have in common and reunite. Only together will we be strong enough to fight the forces of darkness that are attacking the world.
God Bless
It feels like we are back in the 11th century sometimes!
 
You make an excellent point! I can’t remember the thread title. Sorry.
Linus became Pope after Peter then? You are right. They were the same church back then.
Just a point of clarification.
There is no “Pope” in the Orthodox Church and nothing that compares to a “Pope” as a supreme ruler over all the Orthodox, being infallible, and Christs Vicar on Earth – nothing. Also the Orthodox church was never a part of the Catholic church; the church of Rome was a part of the universal Christian Church (Orthodox Church) along with all the other Orthodox Churches, before it changed its ways, worship, and beliefs - thus finding herself outside of the universal Church.
 
The Spanish monarchy actively persecutes and tortures political dissidents? 🤷 Uh…I think not. Spain has a largely secularized culture today and a constitutional monarchy that does not have much of an active role in society whether positively or negatively. It once did persecute other minority religious groups savagely, as did Franco but I think you ought to go on holiday to Spain if you think its still the case…
You should talk to immigrant Catalans. They can tell a very different story, even with Franco gone. You step on an image of the king, and a cop see you, prepare to spend some time in jail and maybe a little roughing up.
 
Just a point of clarification.
There is no “Pope” in the Orthodox Church and nothing that compares to a “Pope” as a supreme ruler over all the Orthodox, being infallible, and Christs Vicar on Earth – nothing. Also the Orthodox church was never a part of the Catholic church; the church of Rome was a part of the universal Christian Church (Orthodox Church) along with all the other Orthodox Churches, before it changed its ways, worship, and beliefs - thus finding herself outside of the universal Church.
As much as I agree with you on that, I don’t think it’s necessary to say your final statement. After all, they are Catholic since they do believe it is THE church, same way we are Orthodox because we believe it to be THE church. We clearly know each other’s beliefs about Catholicism v. Orthodoxy so seems like a moot point to say since they don’t believe it anyways at least in the context of this forum thread.
 
Just a point of clarification.
There is no “Pope” in the Orthodox Church and nothing that compares to a “Pope” as a supreme ruler over all the Orthodox, being infallible, and Christs Vicar on Earth – nothing. Also the Orthodox church was never a part of the Catholic church; the church of Rome was a part of the universal Christian Church (Orthodox Church) along with all the other Orthodox Churches, before it changed its ways, worship, and beliefs - thus finding herself outside of the universal Church.
Do the Orthodox believe in the Real Presence?
 
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