Orthodox and Catholic converts: have you ever struggled between the two?

[Rohzek]

The spanish monarchy actively persecutes and tortures political dissidents. This is a ridiculous claim without any basis. The evidences are some presumible talks with catalan fellows. Yeah, It almost sounds as convincing as Chick cartoons, you know, the Vatican has a big computer with records of the name of every Protestant in the world to persecute them. And yes, some people claim this is true. That’s certainly a solid evidence.

Masonic means that under the appearance our borbonic and french monarchy is anticatholic, pro-abortist, pro-socialist ideas and usually goes to Bilderberg meetings. So catholic!

I don’t understand why someone for defend his positions has to speak without the remotest idea of things that he doesn’t know. I won’t continue this subject because I’d have to say no charitable words. Of course this is an off-topic that degrade this interesting thread. For me is over.

Blessings for you, Rohzek.

I see that I’ve offended your patriotic sensibilities. But I would simply like to point out, that you identifying as from Spain is just as credible as my claims. I’d also like to point out, that as far as dismissing Catalan testimony, I’m reluctant to do so considering the government in Madrid won’t even admit/let the Catalans hold an official referendum without branding it as illegal.

:hug3: and i dont know why he commented such things. I’ve been to spain a few times and only met friendly people

Yeah, none of what I said ever comes close as making a blanket statement of all the people of Spain whatsoever. I never said that the people there aren’t friendly. As for why I brought the example up, you should see my original post where I said it in order to understand its context.

 

[czarlazar]

I think the misunderstanding lies on your view of what the immaculate conception is. You seem to have developed the idea that immaculate conception is the same as Jesus being born of a virgin or something. Either way your theology is flawed if you believe that being born like Christ makes you not human.

This is a very high and mighty statement, so your view is correct and my view is “flawed” - Okay. To your last statement, yes, anyone born of a virgin birth would not be human, thus the uniqueness of Christ, correct?

Jesus was fully human, his divinity has nothing to do with how he was born. The Church fathers saw that Christ’s birth was like Adam’s, brought about by God’s forming, not man’s earthly passion of sex. This does not make him any more super-human than Adam. The immaculate conception of Mary is very different than this birth of Christ. Whether you agree with the immaculate conception or not, you have no right to tell westerners what it is that they believe if they continue to tell you that it is not what you believe it is. It’s like a protestant that insists that both us east and west worship Mary, they have no right to tell us what we are doing especially when we explain that we do not. All that the immaculate conception means in the west is that she did not inherit original sin that would lead her into personal sin and death. She was given special graces because she would be the ark of Jesus, which needed to be holy. It is a different theology from the east, because in the east the idea that you inherit sin is not taught, but that you inherit the effects of sin, mainly the passions of the earth. The immaculate conception is a little vague, because it is not clear whether or not Mary was born with the passions that we were given after the fall or not. Theologically it wouldn’t make sense, because even Christ was born with the passions it seems. All that I was trying to do is to unite the east and west ideas by expressing that Mary was definitely protected in some extraordinary way from her earliest existence, her conception. To believe that she chose not to sin without any specialized protection seems to contradict scripture. I’ll look for writings of Eastern fathers that shed light on this concept.

If the Catholic belief is that all people have original sin, and from your reference: “The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135”. Then Mary (and St. John or whoever else is included) didnt really do anything and Jesus really is not human. How can something (org… sin) that is passed to all humans (but not Mary) make her Son (Jesus) human, when he didnt have what all others had/have etc,? The second part is that if (as I have already explained) these “people” had to do nothing (because God somehow “Sin Proofed” them) then how are they any more human than you or I? And how are they examples to the human race? (they are not because they were “sin proofed” and we are not. Are saints not saints, so that they can be examples to the human race of how to achieve such a holiness? So how does a Catholic belief that is transmitted to all humans (i.e. org. sin) somehow not transmitted to these really important humans? The whole idea of org. sin is flawed; either these people (Mary, John etc,) are not human (because they dont have org. sin like all others (Catholic belief)) or they really did nothing because they were “sin proofed”; so which is it?

Whereas the Orthodox believe, “that we are not guilty of Adam’s sin, though we inherit a corrupted nature; but our free will remains intact” as explained by St. John Chrysostom
“How did many become sinners because of Adam?… How could we, who were not yet born, all be condemned with him, even though God said, ‘Neither the fathers shall be put to death because of their children, nor the children because of their fathers, but the soul which sins shall be put to death’? (cf. Deut. 24:18) as explained by St Cyril of Alexandria. Partially adapted from Archimandrite Vassilios Papavassiliou.

 

[czarlazar]

I see that I’ve offended your patriotic sensibilities. But I would simply like to point out, that you identifying as from Spain is just as credible as my claims. I’d also like to point out, that as far as dismissing Catalan testimony, I’m reluctant to do so considering the government in Madrid won’t even admit/let the Catalans hold an official referendum without branding it as illegal.

Yeah, none of what I said ever comes close as making a blanket statement of all the people of Spain whatsoever. I never said that the people there aren’t friendly. As for why I brought the example up, you should see my original post where I said it in order to understand its context.

I would point out that this whole discussion came about because of a statement about Catholic “faith” being used as an excuse for persecution; which has been shown regardless of the situation in Spain being true or not.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Return to the topic of the OP and stay there.

 

[czarlazar]

Return to the topic of the OP and stay there.

another infraction, geez. Its interesting that the Orthodox get posts deleted at such a high rate compared to the Catholic postings. Why remove posts?

 

[czarlazar]

I think the misunderstanding lies on your view of what the immaculate conception is. You seem to have developed the idea that immaculate conception is the same as Jesus being born of a virgin or something. Either way your theology is flawed if you believe that being born like Christ makes you not human. Jesus was fully human, his divinity has nothing to do with how he was born. The Church fathers saw that Christ’s birth was like Adam’s, brought about by God’s forming, not man’s earthly passion of sex. This does not make him any more super-human than Adam. The immaculate conception of Mary is very different than this birth of Christ. Whether you agree with the immaculate conception or not, you have no right to tell westerners what it is that they believe if they continue to tell you that it is not what you believe it is. It’s like a protestant that insists that both us east and west worship Mary, they have no right to tell us what we are doing especially when we explain that we do not. All that the immaculate conception means in the west is that she did not inherit original sin that would lead her into personal sin and death. She was given special graces because she would be the ark of Jesus, which needed to be holy. It is a different theology from the east, because in the east the idea that you inherit sin is not taught, but that you inherit the effects of sin, mainly the passions of the earth. The immaculate conception is a little vague, because it is not clear whether or not Mary was born with the passions that we were given after the fall or not. Theologically it wouldn’t make sense, because even Christ was born with the passions it seems. All that I was trying to do is to unite the east and west ideas by expressing that Mary was definitely protected in some extraordinary way from her earliest existence, her conception. To believe that she chose not to sin without any specialized protection seems to contradict scripture. I’ll look for writings of Eastern fathers that shed light on this concept.

And yet the “uncharitable” post that calls Orthodoxy FLAWED…stands…so much fear of the truth here, why is that?

Dear czarlazar,

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This is a very high and mighty statement,​

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forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12904032
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Originally Posted by pacloc View Post
I think the misunderstanding lies on your view of what the immaculate conception is. You seem to have developed the idea that immaculate conception is the same as Jesus being born of a virgin or something. Either way your theology is flawed if you believe that being born like Christ makes you not human.
This is a very high and mighty statement, so your view is correct and my view is “flawed” - Okay. To your last statement, yes, anyone born of a virgin birth would not be human, thus the uniqueness of Christ, correct?

 

[SAVINGRACE]

For the Spain portions, no. My claims are based upon personal social interactions with people from Spain. If I take their word for it as their friend, then what reason would I have to go hit the books? Either believe me or don’t. It is of no consequence to me what you believe, and the specific point really is simply ancillary to my overarching point to the previous discussion.

So it’s hearsay/gossip/anecdotal. If you are going to make statements about a country, it’s monarch, government and people then you need to provide evidence to support it. Please don’t try and present anecdotes as factual and researched. You have upset our Spanish friend.

 

[jmcrae]

From another thread started by Tommy about the obstacles, I’d like to know about the converts:

Before you decided to convert to either Orthodoxy or Catholicism, have you ever struggled and dabbled between the two?

I became Roman Catholic. The strikes against Orthodoxy were, the only one in my area is Russian, and I don’t speak Russian, and, it’s more like a Russian cultural centre than a Church of any kind. Also I was corresponding by e-mail with a lady who had converted from Orthodox to Roman Catholic, and she mentioned that her Orthodox church was more of a Greek cultural centre - they even had Greek national flags in the building.

I like Orthodoxy because I believe and love the eastern Traditions, incense, veneration, the standing, icons.

We share these traditions with the Eastern Catholic Church. I have often attended Ukrainian Catholic liturgies, especially when I go to Saskatoon; I go to St. George’s when I’m there for Sunday. I absolutely love the Eastern liturgy, as well.

 

[Elizium23]

I had mixed feelings about my first encounter with Eastern Orthodoxy. It was Orthodox Church of America, a small campus mission led by one priest and matushka, and I found them because they had opened a gift shop in the area. I became a regular visitor and, low on money, I mostly window-shopped the lovely things on the shelves. They had a small oratory in the shop and I attended Vespers a couple of times, which I thought was wonderful. The priest was kind to me, but very anti-Catholic. He was known to boom that “we are NOT ROMAN!” and he let me borrow various tracts about Orthodoxy. The matushka managed to offend me on several occasions, one with a dispute about a sale, and another time when she said I was not chrismated, I had just been confirmed Catholic and I was unaware that our sacraments are not always recognized as valid. The shop closed after a short time in business and I really had no interest in following them any more.

My second encounter was with the Byzantine Catholic Church and things were better there, but still difficult. It was a long way to travel, on the bus and bicycle, and given the spotty bus service on Sundays, I wasn’t able to make it my home parish. It was then that I decided that as much as I am attracted to the Byzantine Rite, that I am a cradle Roman Catholic, my family is in the Latin Church, and that is where I will stay, no matter what I think of the liturgies. Soon after I found a parish where rubrics are taken seriously and since then, I have been a happy camper.

I read Kallistos Ware’s “The Orthodox Church” with interest. A friend recently handed down a large box full of books on Byzantine spirituality. I listen to Eastern chant on Pandora and YouTube, and I watch videos of Divine Liturgy. I’m deeply involved in my Latin parish and therefore have little time, especially on Sundays, to go out visiting Eastern Catholic parishes, but I still do when there is a special occasion.

 

[Vanez]

I had mixed feelings about my first encounter with Eastern Orthodoxy. It was Orthodox Church of America, a small campus mission led by one priest and matushka, and I found them because they had opened a gift shop in the area. I became a regular visitor and, low on money, I mostly window-shopped the lovely things on the shelves. They had a small oratory in the shop and I attended Vespers a couple of times, which I thought was wonderful. The priest was kind to me, but very anti-Catholic. He was known to boom that “we are NOT ROMAN!” and he let me borrow various tracts about Orthodoxy. The matushka managed to offend me on several occasions, one with a dispute about a sale, and another time when she said I was not chrismated, I had just been confirmed Catholic and I was unaware that our sacraments are not always recognized as valid. The shop closed after a short time in business and I really had no interest in following them any more.

My second encounter was with the Byzantine Catholic Church and things were better there, but still difficult. It was a long way to travel, on the bus and bicycle, and given the spotty bus service on Sundays, I wasn’t able to make it my home parish. It was then that I decided that as much as I am attracted to the Byzantine Rite, that I am a cradle Roman Catholic, my family is in the Latin Church, and that is where I will stay, no matter what I think of the liturgies. Soon after I found a parish where rubrics are taken seriously and since then, I have been a happy camper.

I read Kallistos Ware’s “The Orthodox Church” with interest. A friend recently handed down a large box full of books on Byzantine spirituality. I listen to Eastern chant on Pandora and YouTube, and I watch videos of Divine Liturgy. I’m deeply involved in my Latin parish and therefore have little time, especially on Sundays, to go out visiting Eastern Catholic parishes, but I still do when there is a special occasion.

Sorry to hear about that Orthodox priest and matushka. Maybe they had been missunderstood in the past that made them act like that. So judging my priest and matushka are happy to welcome inquirers. A few parishioners are RC converts to Orthodoxy, and a few are Byzantine Catholics who attend this Church already for 40 years.

Byzantine Catholic Churches are very far from where we live too. We got to spend 2 hours travel time because these Churches are located near by Belgium. There’s a regional BCC here, but only once a month

 

[Vanez]

I became Roman Catholic. The strikes against Orthodoxy were, the only one in my area is Russian, and I don’t speak Russian, and, it’s more like a Russian cultural centre than a Church of any kind. Also I was corresponding by e-mail with a lady who had converted from Orthodox to Roman Catholic, and she mentioned that her Orthodox church was more of a Greek cultural centre - they even had Greek national flags in the building.

We share these traditions with the Eastern Catholic Church. I have often attended Ukrainian Catholic liturgies, especially when I go to Saskatoon; I go to St. George’s when I’m there for Sunday. I absolutely love the Eastern liturgy, as well.

My Church is Russian Orthodox, our priest is Dutch. I wish that the Orthodox Churches become more universal just like Catholic. Here it’s even difficult to find an Orthodox church that speaks Dutch in the liturgy. If my church didn’t exist, i would have to travel to Amsterdam or Deventer, which is not near by the nearest by other OCs are in Utrecht. There are 3 OCs there, but the liturgy languages are Greeks, Churchslavic, and the other one is spoken in both Arabic and Dutch, but it’s a Coptic Orthodox Church lol

 

[Peter_J]

Let us not forget about the beauty of the Eastern Rites, specifically the Byzantine Rite. Preferring a beautiful eastern Liturgy, rather than Latin, is not truly a reason to chose an Orthodox church over the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has many Rites all of which are beautiful.

May God Abundantly Bless you

As an Eastern Catholic (though not claiming to speak for all other ECs) I can tell you that there isn’t much I find more tiresome than when someone tries to use us against our Orthodox brethren.

On a side note, I would prefer if you would refer to our Churches as Churches and not “Rites”.

 

[howirenic]

Yes, there was a struggle. I went with where I felt led after a period of discernment. That’s really all you can ask of others.

And I too get frustrated when EC’s are used as a “trump card,” as if they don’t stand on their own.

 

[Peter_J]

Thanks, HI. As you say, we’re certainly not a card.