Orthodox and Catholic representatives meet in Rimini

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AUG. 24, 2010 Orthodox and Catholic representatives meet in Rimini
…To this end, Metropolitan Filaret said that “the time is ripe for a meeting between the Pope and the Patriarch. It might even be possible in 2011; in principle I see no obstacles,”
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“…in principle I see no obstacles,” Bravo 👍
As we know not everyone sees no obstacles. I think we’ve been hearing rumors of such a meeting between PopeB XVI and Patriarch Kyrill for a while now, no?
 
Very cool !! 👍 and 😃 times 10

Ya, there has been a lot of work going on in the background for years. Our last pope made huge inroads with the Orthodox, and Benedict has been walking the same path. Unification is realistic for 2011, but I hesitate to get too excited. There remains yet too much resistance on both sides.

Would that everyone would follow the Melkite example, no?
 
scottm said:
Very cool !! 👍 and 😃 times 10

Ya, there has been a lot of work going on in the background for years. Our last pope made huge inroads with the Orthodox, and Benedict has been walking the same path. Unification is realistic for 2011, but I hesitate to get too excited. There remains yet too much resistance on both sides.

Would that everyone would follow the Melkite example, no?
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Do you really think unity between the Catholic and Russian Orthodox Churches would happen so quickly? You have to understand that a bishop, even a patriarch, signing an accord of union would not mean unity, since Orthodox is not a monarchy. It would be rejected overwhelmingly by the majority of clergy and laity, and the patriarch excommunicated. Orthodoxy is simply not “top - down” in the way that Catholicism is.
 
I agree with dcointin. I just don’t see it happening by 2011. It’ll be interesting to see what fruits the pan-Orthodox council bears if/when it is finally held. Perhaps unity will be possible after then, but certainly not before.

Any union that occurs in the future must be the consent of all of Orthodoxy, otherwise we’ll simply end up with more “uniate” (here meant in the non-pejorative sense) churches and the Schism will continue.

I also agree with the above poster who stated, “I’ll believe it when I see it.” While I do indeed hope that a meeting will occur between the Pope and the Patriarch of Moscow, it’s been rumored for so long that it’s hard to take any claims seriously unless some evidence is substantiated apart from the personal opinion of an individual (no matter who that individual may be). 😦
 
Reading over what I said, I want to be clear that I’m not against the idea of unity. I think the schism between the Catholic and Orthodox is perhaps the greatest tragety of Christian history. I was just saying that any unity must involve the entire church, clergy and laity, not just a patriarch. I’m not familiar with the Russian Church, but from my experience in Orthodoxy there remains a tremendous amount of antagonism that must be overcome before meaningful dialogue can take place.
 
"the time is ripe for a meeting between the Pope and the Patriarch…
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Yo, folks… jumping from “the time is ripe for a meeting” to union is quite a big leap…
Phillip_Rolfes said:
Any union that occurs in the future must be the consent of all of Orthodoxy, otherwise we’ll simply end up with more “uniate” (here meant in the non-pejorative sense) churches and the Schism will continue.
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As a Russian Catholic I’d love to see us united but I ain’t holding my breath. I agree with what you’ve said here, PR. And I am still always very pleased when any such meeting happens and in recent times there have been more, and God willing, will be more.
 
dcointin said:
Do you really think unity between the Catholic and Russian Orthodox Churches would happen so quickly? You have to understand that a bishop, even a patriarch, signing an accord of union would not mean unity, since Orthodox is not a monarchy. It would be rejected overwhelmingly by the majority of clergy and laity, and the patriarch excommunicated. Orthodoxy is simply not “top - down” in the way that Catholicism is.
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Maybe that will happen. Or maybe it won’t. Throughout the post-split history many groups have reunited, admittedly with a split of bishops BUT the point is they have reunited. Any gain is positive. We should all rejoice when it happens.
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
I agree with dcointin. I just don’t see it happening by 2011. It’ll be interesting to see what fruits** the pan-Orthodox council bears if/when it is finally held.** Perhaps unity will be possible after then, but certainly not before.
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Vienna Greek-Orthodox Archbishop Michael Staikos, the Church’s Exarch for Central Europe… has said he is confident that the Pan-Orthodox Council, which has been in the planning stages for years, will finally take place in 2012 or 2013.
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From his mouth to God’s ears!

P.S. more photos of this meeting.
 
dcointin said:
Do you really think unity between the Catholic and Russian Orthodox Churches would happen so quickly? You have to understand that a bishop, even a patriarch, signing an accord of union would not mean unity, since Orthodox is not a monarchy. It would be rejected overwhelmingly by the majority of clergy and laity, and the patriarch excommunicated. Orthodoxy is simply not “top - down” in the way that Catholicism is.
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I don’t see unity for many years. But we can pray for better relations.
 
Well news of such things like meetings between the Pope and the Patriarch are sure to lead to good things and God bless em.

I pray every night that God will bless the efforts of those who strive for the reunifcation of Christs church, espically between the Catholic and EO churchs and include the EO Patriachs in my prayers.

Yet I agree that saying one meeting will lead to full unification is a big leap. What we can hope for is the increased opening of communication and God willing the creation of a formal joint effort of representative clergy from both camps to meet toghether and start examing the issues of dissent between them and drafting formal steps for reunifcation.

Historically there are still some decent sized theological issues and historical issues that must be handled with care and respect for both parties. I personally believe that the day of reunifciation may come, and what a blessing it would be if it happened in my life time, yet i would say its still some time away.
 
dcointin said:
Do you really think unity between the Catholic and Russian Orthodox Churches would happen so quickly? You have to understand that a bishop, even a patriarch, signing an accord of union would not mean unity, since Orthodox is not a monarchy. It would be rejected overwhelmingly by the majority of clergy and laity, and the patriarch excommunicated. Orthodoxy is simply not “top - down” in the way that Catholicism is.
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Whenever unity comes, there will be those on both sides who will disagree with it. On the Orthodox side they’ll simply split off, declare themselves the true Church, and call those who engaged in the reunion “uniates.” I suppose, to a certain extent, that’s the situation we have now.
 
It seems the skeptics of reunification do not have faith in the power of the Holy Spirit, rather they base their skepticism on the discernment of man.
 
JackQ said:
Whenever unity comes, there will be those on both sides who will disagree with it. On the Orthodox side they’ll simply split off, declare themselves the true Church, and call those who engaged in the reunion “uniates.” I suppose, to a certain extent, that’s the situation we have now.
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I agree that this will happen, but if this is God’s will (and I believe it is) there are no limits.

I believe we will reunite and can’t wait until we do. I just hope it doesn’t take too long!
 
Please remember that there is a difference between skepticism and realism. Skepticism often times sees no hope for the future based off of past experience. Realism recognizes and boldly faces the difficulties and obstacles encountered in past experience, but hopes that these will be overcome sometime soon. That being said, I have a very firm hope that communion will be reestablished within the Church (ecclesiologically I follow many theologians in seeing Orthodoxy and Catholicism as one Church. According to this view the Schism is an internal affair).

Another important thing to remember is that the reestablishment of communion does not and cannot mean the submission of one Church to the other. Any communion of the future will be one of equality between Churches. Within the Catholic Church this equality exists only in theory and on paper. The lived reality is far different. Equality, however, must also recognize order. Just as there is equality among the Persons of the Trinity, so also must there be in the Church. And just as there is proper order among the Persons of the Trinity (the Father is “first among equals” so to speak), so too must there be proper order in the Church. Without the proper balance of equality, difference, and order we end up with arguments of who has jurisdiction where, what is the extent of x’s powers over y, etc. Service to the Gospel and the evangelization of the nations must always be the Church’s first priority.
 
dcointin said:
Do you really think unity between the Catholic and Russian Orthodox Churches would happen so quickly?
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I for one do!
dcointin said:
You have to understand that a bishop, even a patriarch, signing an accord of union would not mean unity, since Orthodox is not a monarchy. It would be rejected overwhelmingly by the majority of clergy and laity, and the patriarch excommunicated. Orthodoxy is simply not “top - down” in the way that Catholicism is.
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The Russian Church comes alot closer to a “top-down” type monarchy than alot of other Orthodox Churches do. Plus, out of love for all Christians, there are alot of Russian people that would favor a union with Rome now. Times are not the all the same as they once were.

Saint Seraphim of Sarov once said that God loved heretics so much that he even gave them Holy Baptism. Think about that. Doesn’t that show that God wants us to be as close as we possibly can be? Now if we can all get together and talk about the issues that divide us, and if we can find a way to resolve those issues then why shouldn’t we express our love for each other by re-union?

Do you think it a good thing if Holy Orthodoxy ends up being thought of as those who remain divided at all costs? I used to think that way, but now I have learned that which divides us is not real! It has all been a major misunderstanding in our history. Our Church leaders are working out all of these issues now and union is very near. Those who reject it will no be “overwhelming”. Those who reject it will be very small in number. Those who “excommunicate” those who caused this union will not be able to be unified with others of like mind. So your numbers will be small and you will be greatly divided among yourselves. After you see this happen then ask yourself which group shows the fruits of true Christian Charity? Jesus said, “By their fruits you shall know them”.

I just wish to tell you this in advance to give you something to think about after it all happens.

God Bless!
JohnVIII
 
JohnVIII said:
I for one do!

The Russian Church comes alot closer to a “top-down” type monarchy than alot of other Orthodox Churches do.** Plus, out of love for all Christians, there are alot of Russian people that would favor a union with Rome now**. Times are not the all the same as they once were.

Saint Seraphim of Sarov once said that God loved heretics so much that he even gave them Holy Baptism. Think about that. Doesn’t that show that God wants us to be as close as we possibly can be? Now if we can all get together and talk about the issues that divide us, and if we can find a way to resolve those issues then why shouldn’t we express our love for each other by re-union?

Do you think it a good thing if Holy Orthodoxy ends up being thought of as those who remain divided at all costs? I used to think that way, but now I have learned that which divides us is not real! It has all been a major misunderstanding in our history. Our Church leaders are working out all of these issues now and union is very near. Those who reject it will no be “overwhelming”. Those who reject it will be very small in number. Those who “excommunicate” those who caused this union will not be able to be unified with others of like mind. So your numbers will be small and you will be greatly divided among yourselves. After you see this happen then ask yourself which group shows the fruits of true Christian Charity? Jesus said, “By their fruits you shall know them”.

I just wish to tell you this in advance to give you something to think about after it all happens.

God Bless!
JohnVIII
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Love for Christians does not equal truth. Russians can love their heterodox and heretical neighbors all they want (and I find nothing wrong with loving them), but it would be incredibly foolish and antithetical to Christianity for them to approve a submission to the Vatican if they don’t teach the same things. ISTM that what you are advocating is a Protestant style unity. I’ve said this before on other threads and I still haven’t changed my view: you are waaaay overly optimistic about the Orthodox submitting to the Vatican, especially the Moscow Patriarchate. You seem to have an incredibly idealized view.

What I am about to say will no doubt be extremely unpopular and will probably get people to flame me incessantly, but I am convinced that the Church of Rome in the past has tried to annihilate Orthodoxy, whether consciously or unconsciously. I trust no union talks at this time and I am glad that more Orthodox Churches are coming to the same conclusions as I have. Surely you understand why from an Orthodox perspective we would have deep reservations about submission to the Vatican.

Please don’t misunderstand. I am in no wise claiming that the Orthodox have a perfect track record with Roman Catholics. They, too, have committed sins. However, we must be very, very cautious about reunion. I highly recommend to anyone interested in the Orthodox view of unity with Rome to read:
Against False Union by Alexander Kalomiros
The Rush to Embrace by Archpriest Alexey Young (now Hieromonk Ambrose)

In Christ,
Andrew, a sinner
 
JohnVIII said:
I for one do!

The Russian Church comes alot closer to a “top-down” type monarchy than alot of other Orthodox Churches do. Plus, out of love for all Christians, there are alot of Russian people that would favor a union with Rome now. Times are not the all the same as they once were.

Saint Seraphim of Sarov once said that God loved heretics so much that he even gave them Holy Baptism. Think about that. Doesn’t that show that God wants us to be as close as we possibly can be? Now if we can all get together and talk about the issues that divide us, and if we can find a way to resolve those issues then why shouldn’t we express our love for each other by re-union?

Do you think it a good thing if Holy Orthodoxy ends up being thought of as those who remain divided at all costs? I used to think that way, but now I have learned that which divides us is not real! It has all been a major misunderstanding in our history. Our Church leaders are working out all of these issues now and union is very near. Those who reject it will no be “overwhelming”. Those who reject it will be very small in number. Those who “excommunicate” those who caused this union will not be able to be unified with others of like mind. So your numbers will be small and you will be greatly divided among yourselves. After you see this happen then ask yourself which group shows the fruits of true Christian Charity? Jesus said, “By their fruits you shall know them”.

I just wish to tell you this in advance to give you something to think about after it all happens.

God Bless!
JohnVIII
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I’m not against reunion, as I said in my post after the one that you quoted, where I said that “the schism between the Catholic and Orthodox is perhaps the greatest tragedy of Christian history”. I’m rather just skeptical that union is close since the major theological and ecclesiastical differences remain unresolved. What have you seen from the contemporary Russian Orthodox Church that makes you think it is ready for reunion? I admit that I have never been to Russia, and am not Russian Orthodox (I’m American in the Antiochian Archdiodese), so I don’t have first-hand experience with it. In what ways do you think our differences are not real? I completely agree that Christian love and obedience demands that we come together in dialogue and do our best to resolve our differences, and I have no patience for people that would rather label and dismiss the other side. I know I’ve talked about this before in other posts, but my girlfiriend is Catholic, and we are attending each other’s services on alternating weeks to become familiar with our traditions. I’m also going to meet with a Catholic friar who teaches RCIA to better understand Catholicism, and in particular how he views our similarities and differences. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

Don
 
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