Orthodox and Catholic representatives meet in Rimini

[Diak]

I didn’t see any mention of Greek Catholic or other Eastern Catholic participation. Any comprehensive reconcilation must also include these faithful churches who have suffered for unity.

 

[Nine_Two]

Whenever unity comes, there will be those on both sides who will disagree with it. On the Orthodox side they’ll simply split off, declare themselves the true Church, and call those who engaged in the reunion “uniates.” I suppose, to a certain extent, that’s the situation we have now.

Gee, most Catholics deny the charge of poaching…

By the way, the term “uniate” was coined by the Eastern Catholics.

 

[KyivAndrew]

i didn’t see any mention of greek catholic or other eastern catholic participation. Any comprehensive reconcilation must also include these faithful churches who have suffered for unity.

absolutely!

 

[JackQ]

I agree that this will happen, but if this is God’s will (and I believe it is) there are no limits.

I believe we will reunite and can’t wait until we do. I just hope it doesn’t take too long!

People don’t always follow God’s will. If they did, there never would have been a split in the first place. God has no limits, but he does not force his will on people.

 

[JackQ]

I didn’t see any mention of Greek Catholic or other Eastern Catholic participation. Any comprehensive reconcilation must also include these faithful churches who have suffered for unity.

Agreed. We should also include the Oriental Orthodox.

 

[JackQ]

Gee, most Catholics deny the charge of poaching…

By the way, the term “uniate” was coined by the Eastern Catholics.

You say “poaching,” I say “approaching.” Anyway, what does that have to do with what I said?

 

[Alexander_Roman]

With respect to the inclusion of Eastern Catholics in Catholic-Orthodox discussions - up until now, Rome has preferred not to so as not to offend the Orthodox.

What happened in the city of Lviv in Ukraine on August 20th this year is telling. During a celebration of Ukraine’s independence at a concert in a theatre/opera house, a municipal councillor, Mr. Senyk, had a speech in which he urged Ukrainians to support the Ukrainian Catholic and independent Orthodox Churches.

At this, the UOC-MP rep, Archbishop Augustine, got up with his retinue and left. Following him was the Roman Catholic delegation as well.

I understand why the RC delegation didn’t like the reference to the Ukrainian Orthodox patriarchate which is independent of Moscow and considered “uncanonical.”

But could it not have stayed for the sake of the Ukrainian Catholics? Have the Russian Orthodox produced martyrs for the Roman union that I haven’t heard about?

As Fr. Prof. Andrij Chirovksij of the Met. Andrew Sheptytsky Institute in Ottawa has said of similar Catholic-Orthodox talks: “They are talking about us without us.”

Alex

 

[Diak]

Cardinal George made a nice video for UKU - they’re not all bad…

Of course Fr. Andrij was also part of that catastrophe called the “Quadripartite Commission” so he indeed well knows of the antics.

Ostpolitik is alive and well in some quarters…

 

[JackQ]

With respect to the inclusion of Eastern Catholics in Catholic-Orthodox discussions - up until now, Rome has preferred not to so as not to offend the Orthodox.

What happened in the city of Lviv in Ukraine on August 20th this year is telling. During a celebration of Ukraine’s independence at a concert in a theatre/opera house, a municipal councillor, Mr. Senyk, had a speech in which he urged Ukrainians to support the Ukrainian Catholic and independent Orthodox Churches.

At this, the UOC-MP rep, Archbishop Augustine, got up with his retinue and left. Following him was the Roman Catholic delegation as well.

I understand why the RC delegation didn’t like the reference to the Ukrainian Orthodox patriarchate which is independent of Moscow and considered “uncanonical.”

But could it not have stayed for the sake of the Ukrainian Catholics? Have the Russian Orthodox produced martyrs for the Roman union that I haven’t heard about?

As Fr. Prof. Andrij Chirovksij of the Met. Andrew Sheptytsky Institute in Ottawa has said of similar Catholic-Orthodox talks: “They are talking about us without us.”

Alex

So, we have to walk on eggshells around these guys? How long will reunion last once we get there? How about we show a little appreciation to the people who have maintained unity with us in the face of massive opposition and downright persecution?

 

[trophybearer]

So, we have to walk on eggshells around these guys? How long will reunion last once we get there? How about we show a little appreciation to the people who have maintained unity with us in the face of massive opposition and downright persecution?

That’s the reality of it. The Eastern Catholic Churches have shown not to be a model of unity the Orthodox Church will accept, so they essentially just get in the way.

 

[KyivAndrew]

That’s the reality of it. The Eastern Catholic Churches have shown not to be a model of unity the Orthodox Church will accept, so they essentially just get in the way.

Get in the way of what? Even the Orthodox among themselves cannot agree on what constitutes “primacy” in the Orthodox world among the Orthodox Patriarchs themselves, never mind figuring out what exactly is meant by Rome’s primacy, if any, to Orthodox ecclesiology.

For instance, take the Orthodox Churches in Estonia, one under the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, the other under the Moscow Patriarch. Things got so bad between the two Orthodox Churches that the-then Patriarch of Moscow temporarily removed the name of the Ecumenical Patriarch from the diptychs in the 1990s.

Indeed, at a meeting in Ravenna in early October 2007 of participants in the Orthodox-Catholic Dialogue Conference, the representative of the Moscow Patriarchate, Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev, walked out of the meeting due to the presence of representatives from the Estonian Apostolic Orthodox Church under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate (EP). The Ecumenical See’s representative in Ravenna said that Hilarion’s position “should be seen as an expression of authoritarianism whose goal is to exhibit the influence of the Moscow Church. But like last year in Belgrade, all Moscow achieved was to isolate itself once more since no other Orthodox Church followed its lead, remaining instead faithful to Constantinople.” Metropolitan Ioannis of Pergamon said that the decision of the Moscow patriarchate to walk out of meetings in Ravenna, Italy, reflected the “authoritarianism” in the Russian approach, and said that the Moscow patriarchate was “isolated” since “no other Orthodox Church followed its lead.”
catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=54270

Or this interview with Archimandrite Kirill (Hovorun), deputy chair of the Education Committee of the Russian Orthodox Church which demonstrates the inter-Orthodox problem (and I am not saying there are not Catholic issues too) but this is instructive:

"What are the different Orthodox stances on the primacy of the pope?

— The differences concern not so much the primacy of the pontiff, as much as the primacy within the Orthodox Church. On the one hand, the primate is an integral part of the church tradition. All recognize that primacy should be and function in the Orthodox Church. On the other, it is not understand how it should be. And this is why there are arguments. The Orthodox all have the same attitude toward the Roman primacy: primacy in the Orthodox understanding cannot be the same as the primacy of the Roman one.

— And what is the position of the Orthodox tradition on the primacy?

— Let’s put it this way, among the Orthodox theologians there are currently two (at least) positions on primacy in the Orthodox tradition. According to the first position, primacy exists nominally: there is only the first in honor, who other than the honorary primacy does not fulfill any other functions in Ecumenical Orthodoxy. All autocephalous churches are absolutely sovereign, in the sense of sovereignty of national states. Thus, any attempts to practically embody the honorary primacy in the field of inter-Orthodox relations are perceived as interventions in the internal affairs of the national church – similar to the interference in the internal affairs of a state. In my opinion, such an attitude toward primacy is inspired by the modern model of a sovereign state that appeared after the French Revolution.

The other position comes from the fact that primacy in the Orthodox tradition was always something real that had specific mechanisms of practical application. Another matter is that in history there was a very wide spectrum of mechanisms to realize primacy. Some of these mechanisms would have not been accepted now, like, for example, the interference of Saint John Chrysostom in the internal affairs of the Asiiski eparchies. Therefore there is no consensus between the supporters of this position regarding what specific power the primate can have in the current situation. They agree, however, that the “Federation” model of national churches, which excludes the possibility of a real primacy, is not traditional or acceptable.

It would be an exaggeration to say that the Russian Orthodox Church supports the first position in contradiction to Constantinople, which holds the second position. The ROC has theologians that are sure that primacy in the church should be filled with real content. By the way, such a position is held by Fr. Valentyn Asmus, who will also take part in the discussions in Vienna. I would also include myself in this group. I want to stress once more that we are talking not about the primacy of the pontiff, but about primacy in the Orthodox environment. All groups of Orthodox theologians agree that primacy in the Orthodox sense substantially differs from the primacy of the pope and how it is formed, in particular, at the First Vatican Council."

risu.org.ua/en/index/expert_thought/interview/37178/

I believe the Orthodox to be sister churches, but blaming the poor Eastern Catholics as “getting in the way” is way off and off the mark and I agree with Father Deacon Diak in absolutely bemoaning the fact that Ostopolitik is still alive in some quarters in Rome which sometimes finds common language with Orthodox Moscow’s secular, imperial ambitions and refuses to appreciate the true Christian sacrifice of churches like the Ukrainian Catholic during the liquidations in the Soviet Union.

 

[JackQ]

That’s the reality of it. The Eastern Catholic Churches have shown not to be a model of unity the Orthodox Church will accept, so they essentially just get in the way.

The “guys” I was referring to are the Orthodox. I see no reason why we should be tiptoeing around the Orthodox for fear of offending them (which is pretty easy to do), and, in the process, showing disrespect for the Eastern Catholics.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Dear JackQ,



Alex

 

[trophybearer]

The “guys” I was referring to are the Orthodox. I see no reason why we should be tiptoeing around the Orthodox for fear of offending them (which is pretty easy to do), and, in the process, showing disrespect for the Eastern Catholics.

I was aware of that. That’s the way it’s going to go, however. If it offends Eastern Catholics- well… Neither of us have any say in any of it.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I think I get why Eastern Catholics aren’t included in Catholic-Orthodox talks.

What I don’t get is why RC reps will tend to go completely with certain Orthodox circles, even to the extent of ignoring EC’s.

Going even further, I also wonder about the entire Catholic-Orthodox ecumenical thing.

The RC’s seem to believe that “unity is almost complete” with Orthodoxy. What would make it “complete” however? Some kind of agreement that would sidestep or downplay the pope’s primacy? Can’t believe Rome would agree to that.

At the same time, I can’t believe Rome would be so naive as to think that Russian Orthodoxy would somehow submit to Rome. That’s not in the Russian Orthodox tradition, let alone all the theological hurdles that would have to be jumped (i.e. Filioque and the like).

It is good, of course, that Catholics and Orthodox can offer a mutual witness to Christian values. But then again, so can Catholics and Lutherans, Catholics and Methodists etc.

Orthodoxy would only allow for a Primacy of Honour for the Pope and this only after the RC Church reconciled with Orthodoxy first.

And if the Eastern Catholics are a bad model for church unity - well, someone should tell them. They are the most vibrant church in Ukraine and Russia for that matter, church attendance is at an all time high there, priestly and monastic vocations abound etc.

A friend of mine who is a Greek-Catholic priest spent some time in Lviv in Ukraine. He said he had to work twelve hours a day to keep up with all the requests for Masses/Divine Liturgies, and other Sacraments and blessings. People there, he said, don’t give their priests any rest . . .

He also said that he was to give a sermon in St George’s Cathedral in Lviv but that the priest introducing him spent 25 minutes talking about him and the Church in Canada.

When my friend came up to speak, he thought that he should only speak for five-ten minutes, given that the “intro” was so long.

Following the Divine Liturgy, the priest-host approached my friend with a big frown on his face. He said, “Don’t you ever do that to me again!”

“What were you thinking?! The people came to hear a sermone from you - and what did you do?”

Apparently, Eastern Catholics there love long sermons as well as services.

Who would have thought?

Please don’t get me wrong. I wish the First and Third Romes all the best in their ecumenical relations.

And if they don’t want Ukrainian Catholics involved in the talks - that is all right too.

Our priests and bishops have way to much pastoral work on their hands for such quibbling over "angels on heads of pins!

Alex

 

[Diak]

And if they don’t want Ukrainian Catholics involved in the talks - that is all right too.

Our priests and bishops have way to much pastoral work on their hands for such quibbling over "angels on heads of pins!

Alex

And not just in Ukraina…and don’t forget the deacons…

 

[Alveus_Lacuna]

I’m only wondering if I’ll see a formally unified (as we already have Eucharistic unity) American Orthodox church in my lifetime. The thought that there would be an Orthodox and Roman Catholic union in my lifetime seems completely ridiculous. I think that most Roman and Eastern Catholics are almost totally naive as to the real state of affairs, and how wide the gulf really is. I also hope for union, but only with the repudiation of the Filioque and Papal Infallibility/Ecclesiology issues.

I think that the Roman Catholics would have to give up too much of their identity and theological tradition to make the Orthodox content. I honestly just can’t see a reunion happening, even though I would love to see it. Rome’s just too set in her ways at this point to change.

 

[Vico]

I’m only wondering if I’ll see a formally unified (as we already have Eucharistic unity) American Orthodox church in my lifetime. The thought that there would be an Orthodox and Roman Catholic union in my lifetime seems completely ridiculous. I think that most Roman and Eastern Catholics are almost totally naive as to the real state of affairs, and how wide the gulf really is. I also hope for union, but only with the repudiation of the Filioque and Papal Infallibility/Ecclesiology issues.

I think that the Roman Catholics would have to give up too much of their identity and theological tradition to make the Orthodox content. I honestly just can’t see a reunion happening, even though I would love to see it. Rome’s just too set in her ways at this point to change.

I don’t expect it either, in my lifetime. Churches move slower than tortises. Since the Orthodox say the Catholics are in heresy, and the Eastern theology is apophatic, it may be perpetually opposed to the Catholic positive doctrines, as heretical. Since neither the Orthodox nor the Catholic want to hold to what they have learned is the Truth, there is extreme caution of accepting what is already rejected or rejecting what is already accepted.

 

[Nine_Two]

But could it not have stayed for the sake of the Ukrainian Catholics? Have the Russian Orthodox produced martyrs for the Roman union that I haven’t heard about?

Yes, there have actually. A great deal of blood has been spilled on this issue, by both sides.

 

[Vico]

I don’t expect it either, in my lifetime. Churches move slower than tortises. Since the Orthodox say the Catholics are in heresy, and the Eastern theology is apophatic, it may be perpetually opposed to the Catholic positive doctrines, as heretical. Since neither the Orthodox nor the Catholic want to hold to what they have learned is the Truth, there is extreme caution of accepting what is already rejected or rejecting what is already accepted.

I said it wrong. Since both the Orthodox and the Catholic want to hold to what they have learned is the Truth, there is extreme caution of accepting what is already rejected or rejecting what is already accepted.