I agree. For instance, I am offput by any arguments on both sides of the divide that are merely hypocritical (like polemics about which Church is more united). But can you be more concrete with your point by giving an example?
Well, in regards to the Immaculate Conception. Many Catholics (especially Latins; not so much from ECs) like to try to fit the Catholic understanding of it into an Orthodox mold, if you will. I don’t think that does any good, just as it does no good for Orthodox Christians to judge Catholic theology from an Orthodox lens. We are all human and make mistakes, and God is gracious to us all. But I find it hypocritical from Catholics (of any stripe) to say that Orthodox are misrepresenting them, when they are guilty of judging and scrutinizing Holy Orthodoxy from their Catholic perspective.
I don’t see it like you are describing (although there have been situations like you say) I see Catholics saying, you believe Mary was without sin and so do we. We have common ground. But Orthodox tend to get defensive, as to not appear to be like Catholics. I don’t mean it as an insult, I find it sad. I talked to a Melkite priest that had no problems reconciling Western and Eastern beliefs. I just wish more were open to it, because Jesus prayed for unity. And it would be an awesome day if it happened.
Not sure what you mean. The Catholic Church has all of this as well.
I see what you’re saying and I don’t find it as an insult.
It’s not that we don’t want to look like we’re not Catholic, it’s because there truly is a different understanding, no matter how much people would like to spin it. I, too, would like to see unity, but I want it to be a true unity. I would hate for it to be something like many of the Protestants are doing, such as “You believe in Jesus? Me, too!” In doing so they forsake other aspects of their credence.Thanks for the concrete example. On the issue of the IC, I find both Latins and EO at fault for perpetuating the division over the issue (certain Latins even moreso).
Agreed, and that’s good to point out. Such statements certainly do not automatically lead to a belief in the IC. There is enough testimony from the early Fathers for the belief that are more explicit without appealing to statements that can go either way.
I forgot to add, there is a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church near me that has a school called Immaculate Conception school.I see what you’re saying and I don’t find it as an insult.
Many times, I hear Catholics say “Oh, you believe Mary is sinless. That means you believe in the Immaculate Conception. You believe it, but you just don’t know it!” That to me is ridiculous. Catholics get excited and start saying unity is just around the bend, because from their perspective we’re on the same level. However, one cannot look at Holy Orthodoxy from any other lens then that of Holy Orthodoxy. Else, it is wishful thinking and illusions. There is a different understanding. I get annoyed when Orthodox do the same thing. You cannot judge Catholicism fairly through the lens of another, as Mardukm pointed out.
I could not reconcile post-schism Western beliefs with Eastern beliefs, which is why I chose to become Orthodoxy. It took a while for the schism to take place and it will take time to heal. All in God’s time. His will be done!
In Christ,
Andrew
I almost did. I met with my local Catholic priest several times and was scheduled to begin RCIA. God had other plans.Yikes Joe, that’s crazy! Why don’t you just become Catholic!
There are statements that Mary is immaculate. I think the issue is sometimes we try and read modern definitions of terms back into patristic quotes. You read a quote in which a Church father calls Mary immaculate and the assumption is that father meant the 1854 dogmatic definition of the term. I don’t think that’s an assumption (no pun intended) you can realistically make.
I understood what brother Harpazo meant. And I’m not talking about quotes on the Immaculateness of Mary. Would you like a list of what I’m talking about?
My defense for the teaching of the IC in this or any other forum is only to persuade people to agree that it is not a heresy. Baby steps.That is the point we are trying to make. No matter how many quotes you marshal in defense of a Catholic dogma, such as the Immaculate Conception or Papal Infallibility, you can not show that belief was dogmatically defined prior to the schism. You can not expect the Orthodox to accept anything as dogma that was not defined as such prior to 1054.
Obviously this term is meant to be interpreted exactly as you understand it.I forgot to add, there is a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church near me that has a school called Immaculate Conception school.
Leave it to you to sow seeds of contention.Obviously this term is meant to be interpreted exactly as you understand it.
This is a testimony to the prior Latinization of Greek Catholics, and a means to reaffirm their “Catholicity” to the wider Latin Catholic community (which for many decades had a hard time accepting Greek Catholics on equal terms).
Since the 1950’s/1960’s there have been less and less new examples such as this.
It was in the Ukraine that the Brotherhood of the Immaculate Conception was establised by St. Dimitry Rostov. Isn’t it possible that the Ukrainians are simply being faithful to their Traditions?Obviously this term is meant to be interpreted exactly as you understand it.
This is a testimony to the prior Latinization of Greek Catholics, and a means to reaffirm their “Catholicity” to the wider Latin Catholic community (which for many decades had a hard time accepting Greek Catholics on equal terms).
Since the 1950’s/1960’s there have been less and less new examples such as this.
***“From the time of Diotrephes (3 John 1:9-10) there have been continual schisms, of which the greater number were in the East. Arianism produced a huge schism; the Nestorian and Monophysite schisms still last. However, the Eastern Schism always means that most deplorable quarrel of which the final result is the separation of the vast majority of Eastern Christians from union with the Catholic Church, the schism that produced the separated, so-called “Orthodox” Church.” Catholic Encypodeia ***
I guess it just seems to really irritate some people that some in the Ukraine may actually BELIEVE in the IC.
God had other plans?I almost did. I met with my local Catholic priest several times and was scheduled to begin RCIA. God had other plans.
Yours in Christ
Joe
Josephdanie, Christ is with you. 