Orthodox and Catholicism ???

[cretu]

This is hallucination at best, or misinformation at worst. Nothing of the kind happened.

o really??, bad translation but i couldnt find a better one, but you`ll understand,

While the former is an autocephalous Church, the latter two aren’t. Therefore, Orthodoxy of, say, Moscow Patriarchate, could be compared with the Orthodoxy of the autocephalous Church the referred two are part of.

so they are autocephalous but still submit to the Moscow Patriarchate?

Their Orthodoxy would be examined if they claimed themselves Orthodox. But they refer themselves as Old Calendarists.

i wonder why, but they are Orthodox as in the 11th century, i doubt they have added anything

The only schism is with Greek Old Calendarist, and the root of the problem is the wish of several Ecumenical Patriarchs to enter into union with Roman Catholics. Once the issue is resolved (by either they finally enter into union, or cease acting as if they want it) the schism will heal immediatelly.

i guess we`ll probably not be here when that happens, if it will happen, but im pretty sure if the OC enter the union there will still be one or more Orthodox Churches that would call themselves “orthodox”.

 

[Peter_J]

I don’t know how many Old Calendar groups exist, I never took a tally and your figure surprises me. However Canonical Orthodoxy knows these to be true Orthodox churches if they teach no errors (these people tend to be very perspicacious), their sacraments are very real and the pewpeople usually have no difficulties when visiting the canonical church, which is huge by comparison.

or why would the orthodox splinter groups (like the 15 greek churches) be less Orthodox than the Greek Orthodox Church

Hesychios and cretu,

Still trying to understand here … I guess I just have a different way of looking at it than you 2 do.

Reading your question, cretu, it seems to me that you answered it yourself: they are “less Orthodox” because they are splinter groups. Although I do concede that it depends on what you mean by “splinter”. I’m assuming you mean “not in full communion”, but it’s possible that you mean “in full communion but with strained relations”, in which case that wouldn’t necessarily make them any less Orthodox.

 

[Hesychios]

Hi Peter,

Hesychios and cretu,

Still trying to understand here … I guess I just have a different way of looking at it than you 2 do.

Reading your question, cretu, it seems to me that you answered it yourself: they are “less Orthodox” because they are splinter groups. Although I do concede that it depends on what you mean by “splinter”. I’m assuming you mean “not in full communion”, but it’s possible that you mean “in full communion but with strained relations”, in which case that wouldn’t necessarily make them any less Orthodox.

You may be looking at this through Roman Catholic assumptions. We must be talking past one another.

Let me put this another way, and then let it go…

If the Latin Catholic church were to completely change it’s theology to be in full conformance with Orthodox theology, it would be an Orthodox church.

That does not mean we can assume that we would be in communion. Two different things.

First, the church must be Orthodox…Then we can discuss the possibility of communion, concelebration and commemorating each other’s Primates in the diptychs. Once the churches recognize one another as Orthodox, they can share communion. The decision to share communion does not make one Orthodox. The determination of Orthodoxy does not follow communion, it precedes it.

The decision to share communion is the endorsement that these are fellow travelers in Christ, with correct belief and proper worship. If they have no proper bishops, these can be provided, linking them with the historic church. Communion is not the first step, it is the final step, the sign that we are One.

 

[Robertwilliam]

I think the analogy between “traditionalist Orthodox” and “traditionalist Catholic” (or whatever they call themselves) groups is a good analogy. But what seems strange to me is when you to describe said “traditionalist Orthodox” groups as " … true Orthodox churches" – I consider any “traditionalist Catholic” group that isn’t in full-communion with Rome, to be a non-Catholic group.

That’s the difference between the Orthodox Churches, and Rome.
In Orthodoxy you don’t need to be in communion with Constantinople to be truly Orthodox, You just have to have the true Sacraments and a true Priesthood with correct Doctrine traced back to Our Lord Jesus Christ to be truly Orthodox.
In the Roman and Eastern Catholic Churches, they NEED to be in communion with the Bishop of Rome to be licit and valid.

 

[slavko]

o really??, bad translation but i couldnt find a better one, but you`ll understand,

I understand it quite well, but it seems you are not reading what’s written

Synod Church sirba was pronounced critical step towards Bucharest and has expressed support towards the efforts employed by Russian Church for the restoration of a normal canonical order in Moldova.

It speaks about an official position of an autocephalous Church about something that coul have arised as a dispute between two other autocephalous Churches. The pronouncement helped that the dispute didn’t arise. Not to mention the sesationalism of the apparently non-Orthodox journalist.

You spoke about “arguing” between Patriarchs.

so they are autocephalous but still submit to the Moscow Patriarchate?

Sorry, I don’t have time to refute every single error and misunderstanding of yours. Nobody said what you claim.

i wonder why, but they are Orthodox as in the 11th century, i doubt they have added anything

They could be seen as even more ancient, like donatists of the 4th century.

i guess we`ll probably not be here when that happens, if it will happen, but im pretty sure if the OC enter the union there will still be one or more Orthodox Churches that would call themselves “orthodox”.

I agree, but not in the same fashion like you.

 

[SSTeacher]

That’s the difference between the Orthodox Churches, and Rome.
In Orthodoxy you don’t need to be in communion with Constantinople to be truly Orthodox, You just have to have the true Sacraments and a true Priesthood with correct Doctrine traced back to Our Lord Jesus Christ to be truly Orthodox.
In the Roman and Eastern Catholic Churches, they NEED to be in communion with the Bishop of Rome to be licit and valid.

I’ve been trying to follow all the points raised by posters on this thread but I think I have some way to go before I reach a full understanding. Let me ask this question, please. How important are these jurisdictional/calendar issues? As an outsider, I can see that they must be irritating. But, from an Orthodox perspective, are they REALLY SERIOUS?

Perplexedly,
Mick

 

[brigantine]

I’ve been trying to follow all the points raised by posters on this thread but I think I have some way to go before I reach a full understanding. Let me ask this question, please. How important are these jurisdictional/calendar issues? As an outsider, I can see that they must be irritating. But, from an Orthodox perspective, are they REALLY SERIOUS?

Perplexedly,
Mick

It actually depends on the Jurisdictions. If you stick with the main branches (the ones in SCOBA) you will not find the hard core crazy calendar types for the most part, but not always.

I’m sorry if you said it already but have you been to an Orthodox service yet?

 

[SSTeacher]

It actually depends on the Jurisdictions. If you stick with the main branches (the ones in SCOBA) you will not find the hard core crazy calendar types for the most part, but not always.

I’m sorry if you said it already but have you been to an Orthodox service yet?

Thanks for responding, brigantine.

I’ve experienced the Divine Liturgy in English and I think it is quite beautiful. I’ve been going to an OCA mission church here in High Point. I’ve also experienced Great Vespers. Unfortunately, my wife won’t come with me but I’m sure I’m not the only person with that challenge.

Up to several months ago I had intended to become a Catechumen but I got hung up on two points and have since been wrestling with them. The first one was the Orthodox understanding if salvation. And the second was the administrative muddle. I’ve thought through my difficulties understanding and accepting Orthodox teaching about salvation so all that really remains is the question of authority. I’m here on this website because I’m also considering the truth claims of the Catholic Church. It’s an interesting and challenging time because I find myself being swayed to the West and then to the East and then to the – well, you get the idea. But I’m quite certain that I can no longer remain inside Protestantism.

Grace and peace,
Mick

 

[brigantine]

I was going to suggest an OCA Church if you had not gone. The new Met is young and a real breath of fresh air. He seems like he wants to do great things.

I can’t help with you administrative problems since after 11 years in Orthodoxy I’m now having those same questions. Orthodoxy has a real chance to evangelize a hungry America, and Western Europe but the administrative problems don’t allow a united front.

I’ve been attending a Catholic Church for the last 2 months but I’m still not sure I want to revert back. So many questions!!

 

[SSTeacher]

I was going to suggest an OCA Church if you had not gone. The new Met is young and a real breath of fresh air. He seems like he wants to do great things.

I can’t help with you administrative problems since after 11 years in Orthodoxy I’m now having those same questions. Orthodoxy has a real chance to evangelize a hungry America, and Western Europe but the administrative problems don’t allow a united front.

I’ve been attending a Catholic Church for the last 2 months but I’m still not sure I want to revert back. So many questions!!

We’re kindred spirits, then, searching and trusting that the Lord will lead us where He will. It’s a testing time but by God’s grace we’ll manage to keep our focus and when we reach the end of the journey we’ll be able steadily to draw closer to Him.

May the Lord be with you,
Mick

 

[cretu]

Hesychios and cretu,

Still trying to understand here … I guess I just have a different way of looking at it than you 2 do.

Reading your question, cretu, it seems to me that you answered it yourself: they are “less Orthodox” because they are splinter groups. Although I do concede that it depends on what you mean by “splinter”. I’m assuming you mean “not in full communion”, but it’s possible that you mean “in full communion but with strained relations”, in which case that wouldn’t necessarily make them any less Orthodox.

well the Orthodox Churches in Ukraine, Estonia, Belarus are not quite “splinter groups” the OC managed to make a church for every nation but some nations are left outside, or their churches are not fully recognized

i guess the papacy is something they cant replace , although i envy their liturgy everytime i search something about hte OC i never find some solid arguments to leave the Catholic Church, and their beautiful liturgy is not enough, though i like to attend their liturgy from time to time

 

[Robertwilliam]

well the Orthodox Churches in Ukraine, Estonia, Belarus are not quite “splinter groups” the OC managed to make a church for every nation but some nations are left outside, or their churches are not fully recognized

i guess the papacy is something they cant replace , although i envy their liturgy everytime i search something about hte OC i never find some solid arguments to leave the Catholic Church, and their beautiful liturgy is not enough, though i like to attend their liturgy from time to time

If you like the Eastern Liturgy, try the Eastern Catholic Church. That way you will still be in the Catholic Church under the Pope, it’s the best of both worlds.

 

[SSTeacher]

If you like the Eastern Liturgy, try the Eastern Catholic Church. That way you will still be in the Catholic Church under the Pope, it’s the best of both worlds.

Suppose you like the Eastern Liturgy but you’d feel apprehensive about being “under the Pope” in case he decides that the Liturgy ought to be changed so as to incorporate aspects of Protestant worship as happened with the Tridentine Rite of Mass?

Curiously,
Mick

 

[Robertwilliam]

Suppose you like the Eastern Liturgy but you’d feel apprehensive about being “under the Pope” in case he decides that the Liturgy ought to be changed so as to incorporate aspects of Protestant worship as happened with the Tridentine Rite of Mass?

Curiously,
Mick

Then I would go to a Tridentine Latin Mass.

 

[SSTeacher]

Then I would go to a Tridentine Latin Mass.

Unless the pope outlawed such behavior, of course.

Pusillanimously,
Mick

 

[Robertwilliam]

Unless the pope outlawed such behavior, of course.

Pusillanimously,
Mick

When I was in San Diego, I would go to Holy Cross Cemetary for the Papal Indult Latin Mass. The joke was that the Bishop had run us all to the Catacombs

 

[SSTeacher]

When I was in San Diego, I would go to Holy Cross Cemetary for the Papal Indult Latin Mass. The joke was that the Bishop had run us all to the Catacombs

Many a true word spoken in jest.

So what’s your take on the Society of Saint Pius X? I was quite friendly with Michael Davies back in the late 1970s and early 1980s. He lived fairly near me in South London and I used to give him and his family a lift up to the Great Western Hotel adjacent to Paddington Station where some fifty or so Catholics were daring to praise God in the manner that they’d always done.

Traditionally,
Mick

 

[cretu]

If you like the Eastern Liturgy, try the Eastern Catholic Church. That way you will still be in the Catholic Church under the Pope, it’s the best of both worlds.

i am a greko-catholic (byzantine rite catholic) but the liturgies are not the same, though they are very similar but if you would attend an Orthodox liturgy and then a greko-catholic liturgy you would see the difference.

 

[Robertwilliam]

i am a greko-catholic (byzantine rite catholic) but the liturgies are not the same, though they are very similar but if you would attend an Orthodox liturgy and then a greko-catholic liturgy you would see the difference.

I went to a number of Eastern Rite Liturgies ( Melkite, Maronite, Ruthinian, etc.) before I became finally Orthodox. The only difference I noticed is the way the Eucharist is served. One church I went to the Priest dipped the Body of Christ in the Chalice then gave communion.
The service was the same. (except for the Maronite)

 

[Robertwilliam]

Many a true word spoken in jest.

So what’s your take on the Society of Saint Pius X? I was quite friendly with Michael Davies back in the late 1970s and early 1980s. He lived fairly near me in South London and I used to give him and his family a lift up to the Great Western Hotel adjacent to Paddington Station where some fifty or so Catholics were daring to praise God in the manner that they’d always done.

Traditionally,
Mick

I heard SSPX has been rehabilitated and is back in communion with Rome, just don’t quote me on that. Hopeful thinking, ya’ know.