Orthodox and Catholics

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sometimes I wonder if the church of Christ does still exist

I came to a conclusion , that the church of Christ are both Catholic and Orthodox, and Christ work in both of them .

in vatican 2 The church says that the EO sacrament are valid

in other term , the catholic church is saying that The orthodox church is the church of christ as we are ,and its okay to be part of their church even though they don’t recognize the pope as the vicar of Christ !

on the other hand the orthodox church represent itself as the church of Christ . but yet without the Bishop of Rome , they are not the same church

historically its clear that the bishop of Rome had a primacy , but not as the same we see it this days

I believe that the Catholic church took the papacy to a higher level since 1054 AD

and the orthodox splitting from the catholic church , does not make it the same church as well because they does not recognize the Pope sitting on the Chair of peter, therefore , they are not really the same church .

So I believe that The one True Church as we know it , does not exist, instead we are seeing two churches !
 
in other term , the catholic church is saying that The orthodox church is the church of christ as we are ,and its okay to be part of their church even though they don’t recognize the pope as the vicar of Christ !
Well, no, the Church isn’t saying that.

I suggest the encyclical Ut Unum Sint.
 
The reason why the Orthodox have a valid communion is becasue the have a valid apostolic succession, but they still are not the church Christ founded for one single simple reason: The church was founded upon Peter. And they do NOT have full communion with Peter. The church Fathers (some wich are also saints in the orthodox church) clearly recognized that the only way to tell if u are in the church Christ founded or not is by looking at the Bishop of Rome, heres some quotes from them (taken from this website):

“Simon Cephas answered and said, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah: flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say unto thee also, that you are Cephas, and on this rock I will build my Church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it” (The Diatesseron 23 [A.D. 170]).
-Tatian the Syrian

“Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?” (Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 [A.D. 200]).
-Tertullian

“Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples” (Homilies 4:1 [338 -351 A.D.]).
-Ephraim the Syrian
 
“The Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys” (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).
-Tertullian

“Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter” (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).
-The Letter of Clement to James

Look at [Peter], the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church [Matt. 16:18]. And what does our Lord say to him? ‘Oh you of little faith,’ he says, ‘why do you doubt?’ [Matt. 14:31]” (Homilies on Exodus 5:4 [A.D. 248]).
-Origen

“[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church. . . .’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?” (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).
-Ambrose of Milan

“It is to Peter that he says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18]. Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church is, no death is there, but life eternal” (Commentary on Twelve Psalms of David 40:30 [A.D. 389]).
-Ambrose of Milan

“[Simon Peter said to Simon Magus in Rome:] ‘For you now stand in direct opposition to me, who am a firm rock, the foundation of the Church’ [Matt. 16:18]” (Clementine Homilies 17:19 [A.D. 221]).
-The Clementine Homilies
 
Once you understand that the church is where Peter is, you will have no doubt that the Roman Catholic Church is the church Christ founded. Lets check a couple of quotes regarding the importance of holding unity with Peter.

“The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus [2nd pope]. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the letter to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21]. To him succeeded Anacletus [3rd pope], and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement [4th pope] was chosen for the episcopate. He had seen the blessed apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that he still heard the echoes of the preaching of the apostles and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the apostles… To this Clement, Evaristus [5th pope] succeeded . . . and now, in the twelfth place after the apostles, the lot of the episcopate [of Rome] has fallen to Eleutherius [13th pope]. In this order, and by the teaching of the apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us” (Against Heresies, 3, 3, 3[A.D. 189]).
-Irenaeus

You cannot deny that you are aware that In the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas ‘Rock’]—of all the apostles, the one chair in which unity is maintained by all. Neither do the apostles proceed individually on their own, and anyone who would [presume to] set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner. . . . Recall, then, the origins of your chair, those of you who wish to claim for yourselves the title of holy Church” (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).
-Optatus of Milevus

“If all men throughout the world were such as you most vainly accuse them of having been, what has the chair of the Roman church done to you, in which Peter sat, and in which Anastasius [39th pope] sits today?” (Against the Letters of Petilani 2:118 [A.D. 402]).
-Augustine

Now lets look at the following quote from Cyprian which is of strong words:

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. … ’ [Matt. 16:18]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. . . . If someone [today] does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; first edition [A.D. 251]).
-Cyprian of Carthage

Cyprian here asks you, if u do not hold fast to the unity with Peter can you imagine if u still hold to the one true faith? Can u be confident that u are in the church?
 
They [the Novatian heretics] have not the succession of Peter, who hold not the chair of Peter, which they rend by wicked schism; and this, too, they do, wickedly denying that sins can be forgiven [by the sacrament of confession] even in the Church, whereas it was said to Peter: ‘I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven’[Matt. 16:19]” (Penance 1:7:33 [A.D. 388]).
-Ambrose of Milan

Ambrose here clearly states taht if u do not have the succession of Peter, u are not in the church. Now i Ask you who has the Succession of Peter?

My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails” (Letter to Pope Damasus I, 15:2 [A.D. 396]).
-Jerome

Here Jerome clearifies for us the importance of being in communion with the Chair of Peter.

With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source” (Letters 59:14 [A.D. 253]).
-Cyprian of Carthage

And lastly just to not make it that long, Augustine lets us know (before the schism even ocurred) how the true church was going to be called even to this day

In the Catholic Church . . . a few spiritual men attain [wisdom] in this life, in such a way that . . . they know it without any doubting, while the rest of the multitude finds [its] greatest safety not in lively understanding but in the simplicity of believing. . . . [T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in her bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate [of Pope Siricius], keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called “The Foundation” 4:5 [A.D. 397]).
-Augustine

Orthodox call themselves Catholic, but which church is more known as “Catholic”?
They call themselves catholic bcuz they say the creed, but also loads of protestants say it to…
It is from my point of view that even though Eastern Orthodox (and Oriental) have a valid succession, we are the Church Christ founded because it is we who have the succession with Peter, and full communion with him. After all, Upon him the Church was founded.
 
I’ve concluded that this can’t be resolved in an internet forum - even by me! 😉

Simplification is good for introductions, not so good for hard core conflict resolution.

I suggest that the OP’s descriptions are far to simplistic of the situation. In just one circumstance, yes the EO often claim that the papacy as it exists today is a post-schism creation. Instead, they claim that the pope is meant to have something they call “primacy, not supremacy.” But in practice, “primacy” (as they define it) reduces to nothing at all and seems to me to bear no resemblance to how Peter behaves in Acts.

To be sure, the EO have a good point that popes are not supposed to be tyrants or dictators. Fortunately, that’s not what catholics believe either. 🙂
 
Well, here we go with another cut-and-paste frenzy.
Forgive me, for I might just be inclined to pitch in.

Let’s see what the venerable St. Augustine had to say about Matthew 16:18.
From St. Augustine’s sermon 76:
For on this very account the Lord said, “On this rock I will build my Church,” because Peter had said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself also built.

Thou art therefore, saith He, Peter, and upon this Rock which thou has confessed, upon this rock, which thou has acknowledged saying, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” I will build my Church. Upon Me I will build thee, not Me upon thee.

From St. Augustine’s Retractationes:
But I know that I have afterwards in very many places so expounded the Lord’s saying “Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build My Church” as to be understood of Him whom Peter confessed when he said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God” … For it was not said to him, "Thou art Petra (the Rock) but Thou art Petrus (Peter). But Christ was the Rock, whom Simon confessing, as the Whole Church confesses Him, was called Peter.

Let’s see if St. Augustine and St. Cyprian believed that Rome was above the conciliar nature of the Church.
From The Confessions and Letters of St. Augustine:
Well let us suppose that those bishops who decided the case at Rome were not good judges; there still remained a plenary Council of the universal Church, in which these judges [including the Bishop of Rome] themselves might be put on their defense; so that, if they were convicted of a mistake, their decisions might be reversed.

St. Cyprian to the Lapsed, Epistle XXVI:
Through the changes of times and successions, the ordering of bishops and the plan of the Church flow onwards; so that the Church is founded upon the bishops, and every act of the Church is controlled by these same rulers. Since this, then, is founded on the divine law, I marvel that some, with daring temerity, have chosen to write to me as if they wrote in the name of the Church.

Now, let’s see if the fathers who held the Ecumenical Councils were of the persuasion that the Pope was above the conciliar nature of the Church.

The Third Ecumenical Council (Ephesus): The Council, ignoring Pope Celestine’s excommunication of Nestorius decided to try Nestorius themselves. The pope’s excommunication did not bind the entire church to excommunicate Nestorius; only the council’s excommunication did.

The Fourth Ecumenical Council (Chalcedon): In Canon 28, the fathers deny that Rome was given the privilege to rule by divine right but because of its status as the royal city and the historic center of the Roman Empire.
We also do enact and decree the same things concerning the privileges of the most holy Church of Constantinople, which is New Rome. For the Fathers rightly granted privileges to the throne of old Rome, because it was the royal city. And the One Hundred and Fifty most religious Bishops, actuated by the same consideration, gave equal privileges to the most holy throne of New Rome, justly judging that the city which is honored with the Sovereignty and the Senate, and enjoys equal privileges with the old imperial Rome…
Furthermore, the ranking of the (at that time) four patriarchates of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria and Antioch shows little regard for Apostolic Succession. Rome and Antioch both claim Peter as their founder, yet Antioch was relegated to the fourth place of honor. As Alexandria and Constantinople were founded by Mark and Andrew respectively, Had the fathers believed in the supremacy of Petrine Succession, then Alexandria and Constantinople would have both ranked under Antioch. The rankings were simply based of the importance of the cities within the Empire. The ultimate implication of this Canon, of course, is that Rome’s primacy was given to her by the Council as a privilege, not as a right. Canon 28 was accepted by Rome at the Second Council of Lyons.

The Fifth Ecumenical Council (Constantinople II): Pope Vigilius, reluctant to condemn the three chapters wrote the Constitutum defending them. The Council anathematized anybody who would defend the three chapters. Vigilius, under pressure, recanted his position, claiming that he had been misled by the devil.

The Sixth Ecumenical Council (Constantinople III): The Council posthumously anathematized Pope Honorius and Patriarch Sergius of Constantinople for their support of monothelitism.

To sum this up, was there Papal Primacy in the early church? Yes. Was the nature of the Primacy in practice, the same as the Primacy as it is in the Roman Catholic Church today? The evidence says no: The pope’s authority today in relation to the council is far greater than it once was. Was the primacy based on Petrine succession? No. Many bishops in the ancient Church were successors of Peter. Rome alone did not hold this title. In addition, we see in Canon 28 that Rome was assigned her primacy due to her position as the seat of secular Government in the ancient Roman World. Lastly, is the often-quoted Matthew 16:18 evidence for divine right to rule? No. Most of the Church Fathers, St. Augustine included, did not interpret Matthew 16:18 to mean that Peter was the rock, but rather that either Christ or faith in Christ was the rock upon which the Church would be built.
 
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