Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Unity? Or Not?

[grace_singh]

(new thread, based upon older post, not wishing to derail seperate conversation)

i have a question, if it’s ok.

i do know that there are many Churches which are, essentially (as far as i can see) basically Oriental or Eastern Orthodox in liturgy, devotional practices, and culture, but who are in communion with Rome, and hence Catholic.

these Catholics were generally brought into Catholicism from an already existing non-Catholic community, and examples include the Chaldean Catholic Church (from the Assyrian Chruch of the East), and the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church (from the Indian Orthodox Church).

do you see these groups playing a role in the unification between Orthodoxy and Catholcism?

and in countries where there are Orthodox and Eastern Catholics side by side, how do these two communities tend to get along? is there friendliness, or coolness? do they ever attend one another’s churches, or celebrate holy days together?

 

[Formosus]

(new thread, based upon older post, not wishing to derail seperate conversation)

i have a question, if it’s ok.

i do know that there are many Churches which are, essentially (as far as i can see) basically Oriental or Eastern Orthodox in liturgy, devotional practices, and culture, but who are in communion with Rome, and hence Catholic.

these Catholics were generally brought into Catholicism from an already existing non-Catholic community, and examples include the Chaldean Catholic Church (from the Assyrian Chruch of the East), and the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church (from the Indian Orthodox Church).

do you see these groups playing a role in the unification between Orthodoxy and Catholcism?

and in countries where there are Orthodox and Eastern Catholics side by side, how do these two communities tend to get along? is there friendliness, or coolness? do they ever attend one another’s churches, or celebrate holy days together?

We play a role, in that Eastern and Oriental Catholics are a bridge between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches. That role , though, differs among the different Eastern/Oriental Catholic Churches. Some Eastern Catholic churches are on very friendly terms with their Orthodox counterparts (Melkites and Antiochene Orthodox for instance, or the Chaldeans and the Assyrians). Others have some points of tension between them and the Orthodox church most similar to them. Its going to be different based on the different historical circumstances which each church grew up in. In my opinion, then best role Eastern/Oriental Catholic Churches can play in reuniting the Catholics and Orthodox, is to live out their eastern/oriental identity as much as possible. To try to live out what a re-united Church would look like. In other words, to make the ecclesial reality of the first millennium present in the third one.

 

[grace_singh]

Formosus, thank you.

is there any outreach on behalf of the EC to connect with the Orthodox, or from the Orthodox to connect with the EC? do the two groups ever overlap at all, or do they keep their worship fairly / extremely seperate?

 

[Formosus]

It depends on the group. For the most part Melkites and Antiochenes (so I’ve heard) in the Holy Land are on very good terms.

ssjc.org/ This is an ecumenical group for EC and EO.

 

[malphono]

It depends on the group. For the most part Melkites and Antiochenes (so I’ve heard) in the Holy Land are on very good terms.

This is actually true in general in the Middle East and includes the Syriac Church (OC & CC), Maronites, Armenians (OC & CC), and the Chaldeans & ACoE as well. (I’m not sure about where the Copts fit in.) It has to do with all being subjugated (the Antiochian Orthodox less so) by one particular religion.

 

[grace_singh]

This is actually true in general in the Middle East and includes the Syriac Church (OC & CC), Maronites, Armenians (OC & CC), and the Chaldeans & ACoE as well. (I’m not sure about where the Copts fit in.) It has to do with all being subjugated (the Antiochian Orthodox less so) by one particular religion.

Malphono, thank you. in general, would you say there are any dangers to the Eastern traditions posed by Orthodox coming inot communion with Rome, and becoming EC? you had mentioned your own Maronite Church and some of the reforms (?) happening there, which you felt were really eroding the traditions and uniqueness of that Church.

do the Eastern churches tend to keep most or all of their traditions and liturgies, so long as they are compatible with Catholic theology and understanding?

 

[malphono]

in general, would you say there are any dangers to the Eastern traditions posed by Orthodox coming inot communion with Rome, and becoming EC?

Communion with Rome has no bearing. The Orthodox pose no danger to anything. One might actually say that the Orthodox (EO and OO) have preserved tradition.

you had mentioned your own Maronite Church and some of the reforms (?) happening there, which you felt were really eroding the traditions and uniqueness of that Church.

Yes.

do the Eastern churches tend to keep most or all of their traditions and liturgies, so long as they are compatible with Catholic theology and understanding?

Eastern and Oriental liturgy and praxis have little if anything to do with “Catholic” (read: Latin) theology, so this is really a non-issue.

 

[grace_singh]

Communion with Rome has no bearing. The Orthodox pose no danger to anything. One might actually say that the Orthodox (EO and OO) have preserved.

what i actually meant was, is there any danger to the Eastern (previously within the Orthodox Churches) traditons being lost when individuals or communities come into communion with Rome, but you’ve already answered that in the latter part of your reply.

thank you, and that is good to know. do you see more Orthodox Christians coming into communion with Rome these days (and becoming EC), or do more Orthodox tend to prefer to remain apart from Rome?

i know there’s more than culture seperating the two, but it’s good to hear that in many places, the relationship is friendly, and appreciative. question, do EC and Orthodox ever take communion or worship at one another’s churches, or is this done only very rarely, or in extreme circumstances (e.g. one’s own church is not in the area)?

 

[malphono]

do you see more Orthodox Christians coming into communion with Rome these days (and becoming EC), or do more Orthodox tend to prefer to remain apart from Rome?

It does happen and, by the way, in both directions. Neither is particularly common, though.

do EC and Orthodox ever take communion or worship at one another’s churches, or is this done only very rarely, or in extreme circumstances (e.g. one’s own church is not in the area)?

Such is not at all unusual in the Middle East. It also happens in the diaspora, but far more rarely.

 

[jbm0117]

No unity in our life times!!

A lot of the EC left Orthodoxy to join Rome for political reason, but I am sure many on this site would disagree with that. Peace.

 

[grace_singh]

Such is not at all unusual in the Middle East. It also happens in the diaspora, but far more rarely.

wow… so in your own tradition, do Eastern Catholics and Orthodox ever inter-marry without many problems? or is this still a thing of the future?

 

[Hesychios]

wow… so in your own tradition, do Eastern Catholics and Orthodox ever inter-marry without many problems? or is this still a thing of the future?

It happens past, present (and presumably future).

Catholic Archbishop Zoghby of Baalbek (Memory Eternal!) had an Orthodox father. Orthodox Archbishop Job of Chicago (Memory Eternal!) had a Catholic father.

Apparently, when men look into the eyes of a good woman, it can make them feel very ecumenical.

 

[Ghosty]

wow… so in your own tradition, do Eastern Catholics and Orthodox ever inter-marry without many problems? or is this still a thing of the future?

Many of the families at our Melkite mission are mixed Catholic/Orthodox. As Hesychios said, falling in love can make one very ecumenical.

Peace and God bless!

 

[grace_singh]

Many of the families at our Melkite mission are mixed Catholic/Orthodox. As Hesychios said, falling in love can make one very ecumenical.

Peace and God bless!

that is true! man, that is encouraging! now, is this intermarriage a practice which the Catholic and Orthodox Churches would be technically and heartily ok with, or is it something allowed but not exactly by-the-books kosher?

 

[Ghosty]

that is true! man, that is encouraging! now, is this intermarriage a practice which the Catholic and Orthodox Churches would be technically and heartily ok with, or is it something allowed but not exactly by-the-books kosher?

I can’t speak for the Orthodox, but on the Catholic side I don’t know of any problems. In the past I’m sure it was more of a “technical” issue, but nowadays I’ve not heard anything like that.

Peace and God bless!

 

[grace_singh]

thank you Ghosty, God bless you too. i’m just wondering what more communion between the churches would look like. if some Orthodox and EC are already inter-marrying with few if any problems, parkaing of the Eucharist at each other’s churches, and living side by side peacefully and with essentially the same traditions and culture, that sounds pretty harmonious.

still, there are of course the issues of the Bishopry of Rome, the filioque, church history, counsels, theology, liturgy, tradition, and in some cases Christology. and the fact that these Orthodox Churches trace their own roots back to the Apostles, and their respective bishopries.

there is one matter i came across, namely that the Chaldean Catholic Church (the Catholic counterpart of the Assyrian Church of the East, essentially) has take recent steps to reclaim a more Assyrian-style of liturgy, architecture, and confession, going so far as to remove the filioque from their creed (see link here). if this is the case, is it possible for an Eastern Catholic Church to reject things like the filioque and still be Catholic?

what about the Orthodox perspective? can any Orthodox share what your perspective is on EC and EO / OO relations?

 

[Aramis]

Having talked with some of the local Antiochians, the “imported” ones are far more ecumenical than the “homegrown” ones; then again, the homgrown are mostly former Evangelical Orthodox Church (which is a special case… protestant restorationists discovered the DL of St. John, which lead them to Orthopraxis, which in turn lead to Orthodoxis, which lead them to the EP, who refused to see them, as they had no apostolic succession, but the AO patriarch accepted them, then ordained the lot).

The Russian Orthodox OCA in Anchorage are pretty much, uhm, “Not SCOBA=Not Real Christians,” but in the villages, the same RO OCA diocese tends to be FAR more ecumenical. If one exhibits the correct orthopraxis and orthodoxis, Catholics are at least able to go to confession, and sometimes even will be communed (especially around Nativity and Pascha).

 

[HyeDetroit]

The Armenian Catholic Church and the Armenian Apostolic Church are on good terms. The Detroit area Armenian churches recently celebrated new years eve together. The event was a fundraiser for the churches. It brought people in the Armenian community together. It was a gesture of sincere Christian unity.

They hold a same language, culture, and (for the most part) beliefs. I do not think they should be separated.
Many people in the community do not see any major barriers to reunification. There is dialog between the two churches, which is very important.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Hmmm what about Ukrainian Catholics and Ukrainian Orthodox? A goal for one united Kyivan-Church (Kyiv being the present capital of Ukraine and of ancient Kyivan-Rus) to be in communion with Rome and Constantinople, as it was in the times of Grand Prince Volodymyr in 988 before the Schism?

UGCC Synod Proposes Model of Unity of Churches of St. Volodymyr’s Baptism
16 December 2009, 12:20

KYIV — At a press conference on December 15, 2009, in the Ukrainian House, the head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (UGCC) explained the UGCC’s vision of the possibility of uniting the Kyivan Church and presented the Address of the Synod of Bishops of the UGCC of 2009 to the journalists and the public. One of the main themes of the address was the UGCC’s vision of the possibility of unifying the four branches of the Kyivan Church: the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate, Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, and Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in one national church.

According to Patriarch Lubomyr, the establishment of one national church is to occur through communion, the unity in faith with the preservation of the liturgical and service specificities of each branch. “We are all equal… We have to be the same only in holy faith, whereas certain elaborations, traditions can be different. We have to learn to be tolerant of each other, accept each other as we are, and not insist on the necessity for all to be made like one particular branch,” stated the patriarch

Read more: risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/33378/

Hmm… I wonder about any reply from The Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyivan Patriarchate’s Patriarch Filaret. Oh, wait, got it:
Head of Kyivan Patriarchate Considers Uniting with Greek Catholics Possible
9 April 2010, 12:50

KYIV – On April 8, 2010, at the press conference Prospects of Establishing One National Church in New Political Conditions, the head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate, Patriarch Filaret, expressed his opinion that the unification of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (UGCC) with Ukrainian Orthodox Church is quite possible and likely. He believes, however, that it can happen only when the three branches of Ukrainian Orthodoxy—the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church—unite as one national church recognized by the world, reports Ukrinform.

According to the patriarch, today “good relations have been established between the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.” He noted that there are quite powerful forces in the Greek Catholic environment which would like to unite with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

read more: risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/35159/

But wait what will Moscow up north say? Surely they wouldn’t want to stand in the way of a historic reunification (no matter how long it might take) of the Ukrainian Catholics and Ukrainian Orthodox in one Kyivan Church in Ukraine which would at least require their Russian Orthodox branch in Ukraine to agree to be in communion with the other Ukrainian Orthodox Churches on Ukrainian territory before joining the Catholics. Well Patriarch Filaret of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv) had this to say about the Russian Orthodox Church in this regard:

Patriarch Filaret: Russia Hinders Establishment of One National Orthodox Church in Ukraine
9 April 2010, 09:56 | Inter-Orthodox relations

KYIV – At a press conference on April 8, 2010, Patriarch Filaret of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate (UOC-KP) expressed his opinion that Russia hinders the establishment of one national Orthodox Church in Ukraine, reports the press service of the UOC-KP.

“What prevents the establishment of one national Orthodox Church in Ukraine? Moscow,” said the patriarch. “If the Russian Church was not so closely connected to the state, it would not fulfill its will and would not hinder the church in Ukraine to unite and be independent,” added the hierarch.

“Russia, as you know, wishes to see Ukraine within a new empire, a new state headed by Moscow,” added the patriarch. He believes that Russia can bring Ukraine into such a state only through the influence of the [Russian Orthodox] church.

read more risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/orthodox_relations/35154/

Just so sad. Ukrainians have never really been left alone to decide these matters by themselves, peacefully, and in Christian humility, without outside interference. God help us. I wish the Russian Orthodox all the best, but I wish we Ukrainians decide for ourselves and make these decisions in Kyiv, not in Moscow. Ukraine is an independent country.

 

[Mickey]

According to Patriarch Lubomyr, the establishment of one national church is to occur through communion, the unity in faith with the preservation of the liturgical and service specificities of each branch. “We are all equal… We have to be the same only in holy faith, whereas certain elaborations, traditions can be different. We have to learn to be tolerant of each other, accept each other as we are, and not insist on the necessity for all to be made like one particular branch,” stated the patriarch

I am not so sure that Patriarch Filaret would be in agreement with the way in which this is worded. I am also wondering what is meant by the phrase, “traditions can be different”.