Orthodox and Islam

[BrianH]

Does Eastern Orthodoxy also believe that Muslims can go to heaven? I was not really aware that Catholicism taught what they do. It appears after reading another post and the Catechism that they have some views that are contrary to mine. Any links would be appreciated. If any of the other groups like Oriental Orthodoxy want to weigh in as well please do so.

 

[mattwcu]

Our Catechism does not say Muslims go to heaven. … Do you have a reference for why you think that?

 

[dzheremi]

Not to answer for any Orthodox person, but I have interacted with many here and in my day to day life, and I think this is probably going to end up being one of those subjects for which the principle of “we know where salvation is, not where it isn’t” will be invoked. I wish the Latin Church would return to this principle in unequivocal language, not the mess that you find in the Catechism.

 

[BrianH]

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]

I am only curious about the Orthodox view though.

 

[Mark77]

Not to answer for any Orthodox person, but I have interacted with many here and in my day to day life, and I think this is probably going to end up being one of those subjects for which the principle of “we know where salvation is, not where it isn’t” will be invoked. I wish the Latin Church would return to this principle in unequivocal language, not the mess that you find in the Catechism.

**There is no “mess” in the Catechism, only the Truth;

The Catechism teaches us;
**
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
**
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:**

**Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church.** He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. **Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.**

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. (CCC 845-847)

Sounds pretty clear & coherent to me!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[BrianH]

Let Catholics debate Catholics on another thread. I want some information to see if their stance makes any sense.

 

[mattwcu]

My point is, the Catholic Church does not teach that Muslims go to heaven. Being part of the “plan of salvation” does not mean you are saved. Although that is an interesting way to read it, it cannot be what it means.

The Catechism is rather vague, but then again it is a Catechism not a lengthy exposition. Invincible ignorance is a negative, it is not a positive thing that gets you to heaven. It is an unfortunate state to be in.

 

[dzheremi]

I am absolutely not getting into to this discussion with you, Mark. I respect your view on the Catechism regarding this issue, but do not share it. My objections to the Catechism’s treatment of Muslims are well-known here, and I do not think anything could be gained from rehashing it here. I would edit my post to take out the reference to the Catechism, but then your post wouldn’t make sense. Apologies. It is sufficient to say that I personally can’t really blame our Methodist friend for becoming confused as to just what the RCC teaches regarding Muslims.

 

[Madaglan]

**There is no “mess” in the Catechism, only the Truth;

The Catechism teaches us;
**
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively,** it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:**

**Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church.** He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. **Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.**

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. (CCC 845-847)

Sounds pretty clear & coherent to me!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

Orthodox see Islam as a false religion, a distortion of the truth, and as an open rejection of Christian belief concerning Christ. The Quran says that those who say that God has a son speak a lie. In Islam, Isa is only a prophet, not the Son of God, and even the crucifixion is rejected.

Concerning individual Muslims, Orthodox do not pass judgment regarding their salvation, but only point out that their beliefs, such as those presented above, are grievous falsehood and put their salvation in jeopardy.
.

 

[schaick]

You must read this:

orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

St. John of Damascuss Critique of Islam

*“There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist.”
…

But when we ask: ‘And who is there to testify that God gave him the book? And which of the prophets foretold that such a prophet would rise up?’—they are at a loss.*

I just realized:
Revelation 20 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

*** I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God.* **

 

[BrianH]

Orthodox see Islam as a false religion, a distortion of the truth, and as an open rejection of Christian belief concerning Christ. The Quran says that those who say that God has a son speak a lie. In Islam, Isa is only a prophet, not the Son of God, and even the crucifixion is rejected.

Concerning individual Muslims, Orthodox do not pass judgment regarding their salvation, but only point out that their beliefs, such as those presented above, are grievous falsehood and put their salvation in jeopardy.
.

I do understand the part about not passing judgment regarding salvation on an individual basis. On the other hand, the vast majority of what I have read in the Bible involves men speaking shall we say; bluntly.
I would have thought this to be your stance. Its nice to know. Thanks

 

[Nine_Two]

Not to answer for any Orthodox person, but I have interacted with many here and in my day to day life, and I think this is probably going to end up being one of those subjects for which the principle of “we know where salvation is, not where it isn’t” will be invoked. I wish the Latin Church would return to this principle in unequivocal language, not the mess that you find in the Catechism.

Bingo.

Judgement is to God alone, although this would be more of a case of whether or not they knew of the teachings of Christ, rather than simply the possibility they might hold a valid key to truth. Muhammed was a deciever, and worked under the influence of Satan. Their religion is completely false. However it may lead people to the truth.

 

[Nine_Two]

I do understand the part about not passing judgment regarding salvation on an individual basis. On the other hand, the vast majority of what I have read in the Bible involves men speaking shall we say; bluntly.
I would have thought this to be your stance. Its nice to know. Thanks

There probably is quite a bit of blunt stuff on Islam itself issued from the Church over the years, however with the exception of the saints, we never comment on an individuals salvation.