Orthodox and Marian Beliefs

[TimothyH]

Right, she doesn’t stand between God and man running the plays in and out for salvation. Her “cooperation” with God still in full effect. God still God.

Hesychios has asked some valid questions of Roman Catholics. The last thing I want to do is to get into argument. Right now, because of where I am at spiritually, I really have no desire for even friendly debate and so really shouldn’t be sticking my nose into such a thread.

But to address some of these questions I would refer anyone to paragraphs 968-970 in the Catechism.

Again, not to convince, or to howl in fury, or to defend anyone or anything, or even to refute, but for the sake of clarity. The Latin Church does teach that Mary has a unique and very definite role to play in our salvation. To say that God cannot transmit grace directly to us would be heresy, and the Church does teach that Mary’s salutary (beneficial) effect on men would be non-existent had Christ not granted it. Yes, “God is still God,” but Christ did grant Mary that salutary effect when he elevated his mother to Queen of Heaven and earth. That is my understanding of the teaching of the Latin Church.

-Tim-

 

[GaryTaylor]

Hesychios has asked some valid questions of Roman Catholics. The last thing I want to do is to get into argument. Right now, because of where I am at spiritually, I really have no desire for even friendly debate and so really shouldn’t be sticking my nose into such a thread.

But to address some of these questions I would refer anyone to paragraphs 968-970 in the Catechism.

Again, not to convince, or to howl in fury, or to defend anyone or anything, or even to refute, but for the sake of clarity. The Latin Church does teach that Mary has a unique and very definite role to play in our salvation. To say that God cannot transmit grace directly to us would be heresy, and the Church does teach that Mary’s salutary (beneficial) effect on men would be non-existent had Christ not granted it. Yes, “God is still God,” but Christ did grant Mary that salutary effect when he elevated his mother to Queen of Heaven and earth. That is my understanding of the teaching of the Latin Church.

-Tim-

Amen, right I take little interest in full blown arguements also.

Peace

 

[Hesychios]

Hi Tim,

I believe that Mary controls the treasury of grace won by her Son on the Cross. These graces she distributes according to her will, which is always in conformity to her Son’s will, but is nevertheless her own.

In that sense, Mary has been delegated by her son to dispense grace, and I can ask for it and recieve it from her hands, if it be her Son’s will. AKA Mediatrix of Grace. So yes, I pray to Mary directly, and ask her to protect me by granting to me the grace that I need to achieve salvation, exactly as you describe.

No howls of fury Hesychios, but no shyness either. I am not trying to convince you, nor would I venture to attempt to convince a Metropolitan of an Orthodox Church. I personally find the doctrines neither odd nor without basis in scripture and theology.

-Tim-

Thank you for your honest and direct answer. At least the air has cleared.

Further down the road, when someone mistakenly tries to state that “Catholics and Orthodox believe the same things” and " the only thing that keeps us apart is stubborn human pride" we will both be able to say directly: “that is not true, there are serious differences in our beliefs, which is why we cannot now, and may not ever be, in communion”.

 

[TrueLight]

Hi Tim, Thank you for your honest and direct answer. At least the air has cleared.

Further down the road, when someone mistakenly tries to state that “Catholics and Orthodox believe the same things” and " the only thing that keeps us apart is stubborn human pride" we will both be able to say directly: “that is not true, there are serious differences in our beliefs, which is why we cannot now, and may not ever be, in communion”.

 

[carlos19]

don’t be discouraged. There are some serious issues that need to be resolved. My take is that most of us Catholics do not really understand what Orthodoxy is all about. Study it. There are some real concerns about their theology that need to be addressed. We are not the same as it was written here.

 

[TrueLight]

don’t be discouraged. There are some serious issues that need to be resolved. My take is that most of us Catholics do not really understand what Orthodoxy is all about. Study it. There are some real concerns about their theology that need to be addressed. We are not the same as it was written here.

Which probably also means they are not the same as Eastern Catholics either because some Orthodox beliefs are definitely not in accord with Catholic beliefs.

 

[TimothyH]

Hi Tim, Thank you for your honest and direct answer. At least the air has cleared.

Further down the road, when someone mistakenly tries to state that “Catholics and Orthodox believe the same things” and " the only thing that keeps us apart is stubborn human pride" we will both be able to say directly: “that is not true, there are serious differences in our beliefs, which is why we cannot now, and may not ever be, in communion”.

Oh no. You are not going to do that to me. You are not going to pin a worldwide declaration that we cannot be in commuion on me!

What other’s say, mistakenly or otherwise, that is up to them. I know little about Orthodoxy. Whether air has been cleared is not up to me, nor is whether we will be in communion.

I live in the heart of Evangelical America, and can tell you that compared to some of what I see here, what we share is far more than what we don’t share. That much is true, and John 21 says that the net will not be torn.

-Tim-

 

[dzheremi]

I live in what could be termed the heart of Catholic America (used to be Mexico, and we didn’t even change the name, really). Even our Native Americans speak Spanish. Compared to some of what I’ve seen here, we have a lot more in common the Greeks (who we are also not in communion with) than with the Catholics. Some of the Catholics still come to our liturgies, though, so you could say that they’ve at least got the will to go out of their way to experience Orthodoxy directly, which is what is necessary to do if you want to know Orthodoxy (just like you can’t be Catholic without going to Mass; so I guess that’s one thing we have in common. )

 

[septimine]

I think you may find our prayers as uncomfortable as you do Catholic ones. You have to keep in mind that when we ask her for anything it’s understood to be through her prayers for Christ’s sake, not that she has the ability to do anything of her own. The prayers sometimes aren’t explicit on this point, it’s just understood in their context. Our veneration of the Most Holy Theotokos is something that can only really be understood if you’re in the Church. She is our Mother, the most dear one to our Lord, and our greatest example of humility and sanctity.

I can see your point, but again, it;s a question of degrees. If you’re spending more time on Mary than Jesus, it’s a problem. I’m not sure that you even need to specificly say “pray for us” but there’s a bit of a problem when people spend more time devoted to Mary than to Jesus. Mary is a special saint in the church, but she cannot replace Jesus.

 

[dzheremi]

What do you mean by “spend more time on”, Septimine? There are certainly hymns and prayers to the Theotokos that we will not be getting rid of, but as they are entirely within the context of her role as the mother of Christ, from whom He took His humanity, to place devotion to St. Mary in opposition to devotion to Christ is to create a false dichotomy. For instance, in the introduction to the Creed, we say in my Church: “We exalt you, the Mother of the true Light. We glorify you, O Saint, Theotokos, for you brought forth unto us the Savior of the whole world. He came and saved our souls.” (The the prayer continues: “Glory be to you, our Master, our King, Christ, the pride of the apostles, the crown of the martyrs, the joy of the righteous, the firmness of the churches, the forgiveness of sins…”)

In terms of intercessory hymns, the most common form in my Church is known as the “Hiten” or “Hiteni” (after the first line of the verses: Hiten niperesviya…/Through the intercessions [of]…). It certainly addresses her first among the saints, as is right to do, but opens what is probably limitless options according to the day or ecclesiastical setting. Witness, for instance, the Hitenis for the Nativity, which begin “Through the intercessions of the Theotokos, St. Mary, O Lord grant us the forgiveness of our sins”, and continue in that line for five further saints to be commemorated during that period. Even in the “Verses of the Cymbals”, which settle quite quickly into the form of a well-used and ancient Marian hymn of the Midnight Praises, “Shere ne Maria” (Hail to you, O Mary), you will notice (if you read the English translation included in the description) that while much praise is given to St. Mary, it is not to the exclusion of many others, and of course also that the invocation of the Holy Trinity comes above all, for “He is God, in truth”, and that our hope in St. Mary is in that He may have mercy on us through her intercessions, as we hope in asking for the intercession of any saint. What makes St. Mary particularly special, of course, is that she gave birth to Christ our God, while the other saints did not. He took flesh from her, so in praising her, you praise and affirm the incarnation of God, as in disparaging her you disparage the Lord who dwelt among us.

 

[dvdjs]

Most Holy Theotokos, save us.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

The problem as I see it is that there is so much of this kind of thing. Not just one thing, or another, but many little things like this and the church doesn’t address it, just looks the other way.

This has always been pretty disturbing, and even alarming to me.

I understand your concern, but I think you need to realize that this is the Internet, where Crazy lives and reigns and makes its abode.

I’ve been Catholic all my life (I know you used to be Catholic, too), and I do not encounter this stuff in my real (i.e. non-Internet) life. And I know the kind of people who are not that smart, and would in all likelihood be eating this stuff right up… yet I still don’t see it happening around me.

The one rather eyebrow-raising Marian thing I see my fellow real-life Catholics believing is Medjugorje. Other than that, if I’m not online, crazy nonsense like this “Sts. Joachim and Anne conceived our Lady through conversation” claim never comes up.

Further down the road, when someone mistakenly tries to state that “Catholics and Orthodox believe the same things” and " the only thing that keeps us apart is stubborn human pride" we will both be able to say directly: “that is not true, there are serious differences in our beliefs, which is why we cannot now, and may not ever be, in communion”.

I believe that is a straw-man, Hesychios. No one could credibly claim that our beliefs don’t differ. The claim is not that we “believe the same things” but rather that we share the same Faith - the Orthodox Faith.

 

[dzheremi]

No one could credibly claim that our beliefs don’t differ. The claim is not that we “believe the same things” but rather that we share the same Faith - the Orthodox Faith.

:ehh:

If we do not believe the same things, how do we share the same faith?

 

[dvdjs]

:ehh:

If we do not believe the same things, how do we share the same faith?

Let’s start with Hayakawa’s famous: “cow one is not cow two”. Yet, while each is unique, they are actually both “cows”. We need to establish criteria and standards to discern categorical similarities against a background of individual differences.

It is fair to say that no two human beings have the same - identical - beliefs; no two humans have the same thoughts. However the idea that this distinction makes their faith different, is like saying two different cows are not both cows. It may be that the faiths are different, but that cannot be asserted simply because of the novelty of some individual’s idea.

 

[dzheremi]

The point is not that every Catholic or Orthodox person holds identical beliefs as any other person in their communion, but if one communion believes what the other holds as false, then it is not simply a matter of differing beliefs, but differing and incompatible/contradictory beliefs. So the cow 1, cow 2 example does not work. Those are two that are the same even in terms of their subfamily (Bovinae) – are Roman Catholic and Orthodox faith to be considered the same at such a close level? I wouldn’t think so, and I’d be surprised to find many Catholics who would maintain such after even a cursory study of what both believe and don’t believe. Yes, there is a great deal that we share, but it doesn’t mean that we have the same faith. We (and here I mean both Orthodox and Catholics) are not minimalist in that way, as I’m sure you know. Or at least we are not supposed to be, because a great many things can seem the same if we zoom out far enough, yet are not the same.

 

[dvdjs]

The point is not that every Catholic or Orthodox person holds identical beliefs as any other person in their communion, but if one communion believes what the other holds as false, then it is not simply a matter of differing beliefs, but differing and incompatible/contradictory beliefs.

Exactly, so we have a range of non-identical beliefs within each communion. What is the overlap with others? Are there any beliefs that are rigorously incompatible - not just absent, but incompatible? The range of acceptable and not acceptable beliefs must be defined before the deeper question could be answered. But it is clear that people might have the same faith despite having different beliefs.

So the cow 1, cow 2 example does not work.

Of course it does. You just showed it.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Seem’s to me most the Marian teachings are in fact from the East. I find it amazing one denies doctrine they teach. All were before the 5th in the Golden Era of the Apostolic Church.

What don’t you teach in the East?

Mary is Immaculate without Stain or Spot… AFFIRMATIVE East

Queen of Heaven …AFFIRMATIVE East

Mother of God …AFFIRMATIVE East

Love those 2-years Apparitions in Zeitoun Egypt 1969.

Mary is the Gate? AFFIRMATIVE East

Whats this mean?

Saint Ambrose, bishop of Milan, wrote in 391 AD, “Who is this gate (Ezekiel 44:1-4), if not Mary? Is it not closed because she is a virgin? Mary is the gate through which Christ entered this world, when He was brought forth in the virginal birth and the manner of His birth did not break the seals of virginity.”

Similarly, Saint Augustine wrote in about 430 AD, “It is written (Ezekiel 44, 2): ‘This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it. Because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it…’ What means this closed gate in the house of the Lord, except that Mary is to be ever inviolate? What does it mean that ‘no man shall pass through it,’ save that Joseph shall not know her? And what is this - ‘The Lord alone enters in and goeth out by it,’ except that the Holy Ghost shall impregnate her, and that the Lord of Angels shall be born of her? And what means this - ‘It shall be shut for evermore,’ but that Mary is a Virgin before His birth, a Virgin in His birth, and a Virgin after His birth.”

Ezekiel 44: 1-3
"Then He brought me back
to the outer gate of the Sanctuary,
which faces East;
and it was shut.
And He said to me,
“This gate shall remain shut;
it shall not be opened,
and no one shall enter by it;
for the Lord, the God of Israel,
has entered by it;
therefore it shall remain shut.
Only the Prince may sit in it
to eat bread before the Lord;
He shall enter by way of the vestibule of the gate,
and shall go out the same way.”

Origen? No telling what he would say. Depends on “which” of his works you read. Here’s some …

google.com/url?q=http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a95.htm&sa=U&ei=drHGT8iGA-P40gGu_-2RCw&ved=0CB8QFjAE&sig2=zn6uLwiHh7OTtfSKCv58pw&usg=AFQjCNGEqjTZbQEnIyj9WcE2TpwoDIKwrw

We have to remember to give our thanks to the Eastern Church always for the groundwork of their scholars and elect for the teachings in regards to Our Lady.

For you can rest assure “NONE” of this would be possible without the OO and EO.

Different theology? Lets see

Athanasius of Alexandria (b. ca. 296-298 – d. 2 May 373),

Augustine of Hippo (354–430 C.E.)

Two Brilliant Fathers of the Church Which one was wrong? Were either wrong?

Scripture says that we are born sinners and that we are by nature sinners.

Psalm 51:5 states that we all come into the world as sinners: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.”

Ephesians 2:2 says that all people who are not in Christ are “sons of disobedience.”

Ephesians 2:3 also establishes this, saying that we are all “by nature children of wrath.” If we are all “by nature children of wrath,” it can only be because we are all by nature sinners–for God does not direct His wrath towards those who are not guilty. God did not create the human race sinful, but upright. But we fell into sin and became sinful due to the sin of Adam and Eve.

However…

Everyone has read the patristics from the East dating to when in regards to Mary? Oh right the First Century foward.

The Marian issue needs to be put to rest from an Orthodox perspective.

St Irenaeus- Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 22) Make the connection the Eve.“A virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to Herself and the whole human race.” EAST

Geez you couldn’t keep them quite for 5 centuries in the East. Now everyone wants to point to Rome First 300 years wasn’t much going on in Rome but the Circus and Lions, Martyrs. East was proclaiming all these wonderous pious writtings we were left to sort out.

The Dormition? PUH LEAZE. Thats the most pious work I have “ever” read. Of course that depends on “which” dormition you read.

Right were so very different. After centuries of angels and apostles decending from Heaven for Mary with Seraphin and Cheraphin and powers, we had to put that in some form of intellegent understanding. Here read this…

John the Theologian, The Dormition of the Holy Theotokos …EAST

google.com/url?q=http://pages.uoregon.edu/sshoemak/texts/dormitionG2/dormitionG2.htm&sa=U&ei=pLrGT5KFI4Hh0QHyqoSdCw&ved=0CBYQFjAC&sig2=9Pr56gA0iJ7U3N8KPOrBZg&usg=AFQjCNF6vstCICFTvpYl2zLdcPEQRvP7Bw

And you talk about Rome?

Forgive us for not calling ya first when the Assumption became a Dogma along with the IC.

The East? Right they’re different. Thanks for all the Contributions!

 

[jwinch2]

Then there is also the notion that she is somehow the Mediatrix of all Grace (however that is supposed to work I can’t seem to get a clear consistent answer)

I don’t think you will get a consistent or clear answer. The Church has declined to define that and some other terms (Co-redemptrix, etc) and has openly stated that they can be confusing. Why they are allowed to stand is something I cannot understand at this point. In my view, either define them, or do not use them. Using words and titles that one cannot define is a bad way to go in my view.

My own understanding and approach to Mary is probably more in line with Eastern Tradition than some of the more extreme positions taken in the Latin Church. Thankfully, I have that option.

There is a thread going here on whether it is possible to have too much devotion to Mary. Some may find it interesting given some of the direction of this specific thread.forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=680833

Peace,

 

[GaryTaylor]

I don’t think you will get a consistent or clear answer. The Church has declined to define that and some other terms (Co-redemptrix, etc) and has openly stated that they can be confusing. Why they are allowed to stand is something I cannot understand at this point. In my view, either define them, or do not use them. Using words and titles that one cannot define is a bad way to go in my view.

My own understanding and approach to Mary is probably more in line with Eastern Tradition than some of the more extreme positions taken in the Latin Church. Thankfully, I have that option.

There is a thread going here on whether it is possible to have too much devotion to Mary. Some may find it interesting given some of the direction of this specific thread.forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=680833

Peace,

I’m talking HISTORY not devotion. Thats another thread.

Your own understanding is more like what… John the Theologian above? What part “exactly” are you more in line with? I’m confused with that claim. You mean you’d rather ignore history, is that sort of like like denial? No problem, its still a fact of history.

google.com/url?q=http://catholicpatristics.blogspot.com/2009/03/immaculate-conception.html&sa=U&ei=gcfGT9GTCMa-0QHbxeGFCw&ved=0CBEQFjAA&sig2=wH_Snp0kcUOZ0sqPTl6zRQ&usg=AFQjCNFY4TOQucmfnqM2uXpRwLIq9vlEhg

Mediatrix of Grace isn’t Dogma, posts 16+18 I believe. But you begin to understand it when you understand Mary as the Gate. Queen of Heaven as the East believes.

Listen I went to Catholic School as a child, no big mystery that “most” Catholics are not running around with a Rosary waiting on the next apparition, I assuire you of this. Not a mystery. History is still History though. Earliest known feast days…East.

 

[dzheremi]

Exactly, so we have a range of non-identical beliefs within each communion. What is the overlap with others? Are there any beliefs that are rigorously incompatible - not just absent, but incompatible? The range of acceptable and not acceptable beliefs must be defined before the deeper question could be answered. But it is clear that people might have the same faith despite having different beliefs.

Indeed, people might have the same faith despite having different beliefs (e.g., Ethiopians and the other OO certainly have different ideas of what is included in the canon), but nothing that rises to the level of dogma, as the Roman Church is known to declare as dogma what others leave to private opinion (the assumption) or even outright reject (papal infallibility, purgatory, etc). It is not compatible that one church should believe its head bishop to be infallible and have universal jurisdiction and the other not and that the two still have the same faith, nor that one may teach purgatory as dogma and the other condemn it, etc. We have different faiths.

Of course it does. You just showed it.

As you’ve read it, perhaps, but not as I’ve written it.