Orthodox and Marian Beliefs

[dzheremi]

I have never seen such a quotation from St. Athanasius. I would be interested to see what there is in the great saint’s writings that can substantiate such an idea. I suspect there’s more to the story (in context)…that is, if there is a story there to begin with.

+1 on the “Mediatrix” thing, by the way…I was never comfortable with it as an RC, and I certainly don’t care for it now.

 

[GaryTaylor]

We simply disagree with your interpretation of certain texts, because you exclude from your hermeneutic process all sorts of important details for interpretation, and most especially because you interpret the fact that because somebody teaches something, he teaches something dogmatically. These texts need to be taken in light of the entire corpus of Eastern Christian literature, especially in light of the few Eastern Fathers like St. John Chrysostom, who believed that Mary had committed minor sins (which nobody is recommending should be made into a dogma, I wonder why?). .

Cav what exactly do you disagree with? I would be interested to hear what you see as different than what is stated though? I don’t deny I see history through a Catholic lense, you see it through an Eastern Orthodox lense. Its never been you or I that have been willing to step aside for the sake of unwanted debates. I’m open to both sides.

Disagree? Its been outright denied anything such as as the above works and patristics even existed by so many its outright insulting. The IC has been outright denied here by the EO “constantly” by those who drop in with a one minded thinking from this century and believe we invented a fairy tale in 1854.

St. John Chrysostom is who comes up in the topic above, finding conflicting statements from ECFs is not new. You know darn well I know exactly what you talking about with the Saint. Please lets not even go there with a Saint. Thats a bad arguement for either Church.

What remains the prime Orthodox reason for the rejection of the immaculate conception is that there is no justification for making it a dogma. It is still an acceptable, if now a minority opinion within Orthodoxy, as it has never been condemned as a heresy nor confirmed as a dogma (nor should it ever be condemned or confirmed, as it does not pertain to the salvation of mankind)…

Yet here we are with a Dogma.

Nevertheless this is acceptable:thumbsup: Great, had this been stated from day one, we all could have saved ourselves a headache. The fustration comes in trying to understand where some are coming from. And no its not usually you or Michael, its usually someone who drops in with the Team Colors on and a one-sided view. Be it Catholic or Orthodox. Or another who is starting to think “Orthodoxy”.

how we understand our faith and how we interpret the fathers, instead of trying to prove us wrong at every turn with lists of quotations (a practice of the Latins which dates at least to the Council of Florence), we might be more enthusiastic towards the idea of resuming communion.

Cav, listen I never set out to prove you guys wrong, in fact I believe you know I like and respect you guys that are here all the time. My point has always been simply to show that Rome has a valid point here. You know I have always stated we shouldn’t even be argueing among ourselves and I included the OO in that statement weeks ago also.

I’ve been on record here in agreement with the Dormition. I allow Catholics to believe as they wish. I respect there belief. I realize to a large degree we all run on faith in certain areas which may not date the 1st Century in this particular case, nevertheless its very close.

Athanasius is quoted out of “Mary Through the Centurys” in regards to you question, which also its the Saint who connects the Dormition right to his period. I don’t have the work with me but I have the entire Dormition history on file from it. He speaks on the Commemoration Feast in the Greek Church just of the op of my head. I can’t remember the Greek word for it. “Meme” I think.

Of course John the Theologian I have no problem with. Problem is some refuse to accept there are some very gifted people out here. No different with Origen and many others.

Required belief becomes and entirely different mindset when the churchs are in communion as we see in history. Granted theres much more history now so theres more thought that would go into this. Mary won’t be one of those options in light of the reformation, I do believe thats exactly why the Church acted. There was no wavering on this till after the reformation. You couldn’t even be Baptised in the Church without professing the Nicene Creed. You’ve read the Saints of the East/West church on this thinking. For the sake of where we are at enough said about that.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I have never seen such a quotation from St. Athanasius…

And thats means you just never seen it

Opinions are like pennie’s… +1. as far as your other comments I have a long list of grips about the OO out of charity I’ll pass though.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Even if such a quotation existed it would be erroneous…

It exists, and then we have your opinion on the Saint.

“Mediatrix” is not Catholic dogma. Neither do most Catholics think it should be. Why? Because its not necessary, Secondly because it only creates confusion…

No-one said it was Dogma, the rest is your personal opinion, you do not speak for most Catholic’s, you speak for youself. And from EWTN recently you would be wrong, Scott Hahn just did a show on it, Probably on his websight.

Christ is our mediator, no one comes to the Father except through Him.

So where’s Mary in the order of Grace in the Mystical Body? This is already in the CCC and from V-II. Mediatrix that is.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Prayer to Mary, Mother of Grace

It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near Him who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord God and Master who was born of you. For this reason, you are called full of grace. Remember us, most holy Virgin, and bestow on us gifts from the riches of your graces, Virgin full of graces.

St Athanasius, Bishop and Doctor

Nevertheless as I was saying Prof Jaroslav Pelikan elaborates in detail on the Saint, you can most definately check his footnotes. As the other quote is directly from him.

Oh and BTW Scott Hahn also wrote a few books on this. Yes its discussed frequently, have no idea what will become of it.

 

[dzheremi]

And thats means you just never seen it

Well by all means, Gary, don’t keep us in suspense. Please share this elusive quotation, in context.

Opinions are like pennie’s… +1. as far as your other comments I have a long list of grips about the OO out of charity I’ll pass though.

What other comments, and what do your problems with the Oriental Orthodox have do with this thread? Unless you have some problem with our Marian devotion…in which case, why are you appealing to St. Athanasius the Apostolic, of all people?

 

[TimothyH]

Those silly evangelicals never can get it right. We worship those nifty pictures of Mary we hang up on our walls, not Mary herself.

Seriously, some of them are in another world.

The evangelicals I know think that the Coptic Christians they have seen on the news recently are Egyptian Pentacostals or something.

My friends were telling me how much they were praying for the Churches in Egypt and they didn’t understand why I, as a Catholic, thanked them for their prayers. You could have heard a pin drop when I explained that they are 1900 years old and believe many of the same things as Catholics - the real presence, apostolic succession, priesthood, a Pope, etc.

I said, “What did you think, that they are affiliated with Joel Osteen or something? They make Methodists look like a bunch of hippies.”

I live in the heart of Evangelical America, Cobb County, Georgia, and can tell anyone that what what seperates the Orthodox, Eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics is nothing compared to the chasm between us and the modern American Evangelical Christian.

-Tim-

 

[dzheremi]

And thats means you just never seen it

And I still haven’t seen it, even after your subsequent posts. Either produce a quote in context in which St. Athanasius the Apostolic talks about this “Mediatrix” business as you’ve claimed, or stop claiming that.

Opinions are like pennie’s… +1. as far as your other comments I have a long list of grips about the OO out of charity I’ll pass though.

Yeah, whatever…I’d just like to point out to anyone who cares about the truth that our friend Gary has misquoted his own source in post #68 in claiming the following:

Athanasius lifelong “obsession” was to insist Mary was the mediator between Creator and Creature was he wrong about this and right about all else?

The actual text in Jarsolav Pelikan’s book, which I am looking at right now via Google Books (p. 58) reads as follows:

That justification was supplied by Athanasius, whose lifelong obsession it was to insist that to be the mediator between Creator and creature Christ the Son of God had to be God in the full and unequivocal sense of the word

Nothing at all about Mary being the mediator between Creator and creature. St. Athanasius the Apostolic is not wrong, but you have put wrong words into his mouth, Gary.

Anyone who is interested may view a sampling of (most of) the mentions of St. Athanasius in said text via this link. Not all of them are selectable, but from what I can read I see nothing in that text that supports Gary’s idea that St. Athanasius believed in Mary as mediatrix.

 

[GraceDK]

It exists, and then we have your opinion on the Saint.

This is what I responded to: "Could you please provide quotations from St. Athanasius to show that he believed that Mary is the sole operative mediator between creature and creator, as the title Mediatrix of all grace implies?"
If you believe that exists then you need to prove it. As far as I have read Augustin believed that Jesus Christ was the one mediator between God and man. Jesus said: No one comes to the Father except through Me. I hope you don’t raise the writings of saints above the holy inspired Bible. Or, do we have your opinion on the Bible right here?

No-one said it was Dogma, the rest is your personal opinion, you do not speak for most Catholic’s, you speak for youself. And from EWTN recently you would be wrong, Scott Hahn just did a show on it, Probably on his websight.

**Actually there was a poll on CAF a few years back that showed that over 70 percent of the Catholics on this forum find that the title Mediatrix should not be made dogma, mainly because you need a whole theological explanation to follow everytime you use it. The word itself is controversial. I am not speaking of the underlying intentions of those who like this title. They have read up on it, and know that Mary is absolutely helpless apart from God. I am aware that the word Mediatrix, The is used in the piety of people past and present, and that what these people actually believe about Mary is not cause for scandal. however it has not been made dogma. **

So where’s Mary in the order of Grace in the Mystical Body? This is already in the CCC and from V-II. Mediatrix that is.

**I say again… It has not been made a dogma. And certainly I dont think Augustinus has written a statement about Mary that resembles what the other poster wrote. If he did, you need to prove that. Do you think Mary died for your sins, do you think she is the way, the truth and the life? Do you think she is the door to the kingdom? Christ is THE Mediator. He is the Saviour. The other poster indicated that we as Catholics believe that these attributes belong to Mary, to which I respond that we certainly do not, and neither did Augustinus. **

 

[GaryTaylor]

dzheremi Read the Doctors work The Saint is quoted extensively in his work.

 

[GraceDK]

Seriously, some of them are in another world.

-Tim-

Sadly this is not the privilegde of Evangelicals alone. Crazy nonsense is found all over the place. Also in the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
I say this also because the person you refer to is a close friend of mine.
He has seen alot and heard alot in his life, and is not a stupid person… Somehow however, he got the idea that Catholics and Orthodox worship Mary…

I mean… at some point we gotta ask ourselves if maybe in our assemblies, some people really give that impression, and its not always just the Evangelicals that have weird hallucinations…

 

[dzheremi]

dzheremi Read the Doctors work

I have, Gary. That’s why I’m wondering where this quote is. So far, you haven’t produced it, but you have misquoted the source that you told us that it was found in to make it look like St. Athanasius believed things that he did not believe. Once again, the onus of proof is on you, since you’re the one who is making the claim despite all the evidence to the contrary.

 

[GaryTaylor]

No one comes to the Father except through Me. I hope you don’t raise the writings of saints above the holy inspired Bible. Or, do we have your opinion on the Bible right here?]

Are you OK?

No one is talking about the Bible or God as the creator. I’m talking about V-II and the CCC which I believe is on this thread. Though I believe you would like to assign all that to me for whatever motive you have. Good to know about the poll. Ive read Augustines works.

it has not been made dogma.

Amen:thumbsup:

I say again… It has not been made a dogma.

Amen:thumbsup: For the third time, no-one stated this.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I have, Gary.

Next time I get around to the library I will PM you the pg.

 

[TimothyH]

Sadly this is not the privilegde of Evangelicals alone. Crazy nonsense is found all over the place. Also in the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
I say this also because the person you refer to is a close friend of mine.
He has seen alot and heard alot in his life, and is not a stupid person… Somehow however, he got the idea that Catholics and Orthodox worship Mary…

I mean… at some point we gotta ask ourselves if maybe in our assemblies, some people really give that impression, and its not always just the Evangelicals that have weird hallucinations…

I was referring to Evangelicals as a group, or a denomination if it can be reffered to as that. I was not referring to any individual. I’m sorry if I gave that impression.

For an Evangelical to watch me walk through our grotto on the way to the adoration chapel, they would be sure I worship Mary, if not statues. To see a priest incense a statue of Mary yesterday at the Feast of the Visitation, they would be sure that all Catholics worship images.

I really don’t know what to do about it.

-Tim-

 

[dvdjs]

That is not an Orthodox way to understand the Christian faith, as the Orthodox faith cannot be divided into essentials and non-essentials…

Thanks for this affirmation of Orthodox Catholic thinking. It is a fine answer to my question in post #60.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Nothing at all about Mary being the mediator between Creator and creature.

dzheremi page 58

address to pagan thinking “Mother Goddess”

The term Theotokos was apparently an original Christian creation that arose in the language of Christian Devotion to Her as the Mother of the Divine Savior and that eventually received its theological justification from the church clarification of what was implied by the orthodox witness to him.

[what received justification? Theotoko’s] and the justification is…

That justification was suppilied by Athanasius, whose lifelong obsession it was to insist to be the mediator between Creator and Creature Christ the Son of God had to be God in the full in the full an unequivical sense of the word; through God only God can be know.

God is not the mediator He is God in the full and unequivical sense of the word. Mary is no a Goddess which is being adressed she in mediating the transaction from God the Father to the Son of God.

Whats being addressed is Marys actual order in Grace, and its not Goddess it mediator.

Do you read this differently?

Nevertheless now less look here just for sample theres many writtings on Mary buy the Saint as the this is what he spend His life dedicated to Christs Nature thus the proper understanding Mary in Her role.

Prayer to Mary, Mother of Grace

It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near Him who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord God and Master who was born of you. For this reason, you are called full of grace. Prayer to Mary, Mother of Grace

It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near Him who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord God and Master who was born of you. For this reason, you are called full of grace. Remember us, most holy Virgin, and bestow on us gifts from the riches of your graces, Virgin full of graces.

St Athanasius, Bishop and Doctor

Let look at this quote… Mother of God and our Queen [what does a Queen do?] Help us for the sake of the King [how does a Queen help by mediating, She is not the King] For this reason you are called Full of Grace [lacking none] Bestow on us the richs of your Graces, Virgin full of Graces. [So Mary bestows Graces on Gods creatures, How? by Her mediation or “Intercession” to the King and explained clearly here.] Mediate or Intercede is the same understanding here.

Thoughts? You see this as incorrect?

 

[GaryTaylor]

This is what I responded to: “Could you please provide quotations from St. Athanasius to show that he believed that Mary is the sole operative mediator between creature and creator, as the title Mediatrix of all grace implies?”

First of all I never stated Mary was the sole operative of Grace, nor did I state Athanasius did. However, the CC theology defines this in the CCC and V-II which developes from Pope Leo XIII who I believe was the first to write an encyclical on this.

As far as I have read Augustin believed that Jesus Christ was the one mediator between God and man. Jesus said: No one comes to the Father except through Me. I hope you don’t raise the writings of saints above the holy inspired Bible. Or, do we have your opinion on the Bible right here?

Where are the works of Augustine you are referring to and from where in context? And far as your Bible quote, I believe we have established Mary is not a Goddess, yet as we see by Athanasius [Queen] how this is fact works. Which is in line with CC teaching for sure. Now if you would like to discuss the Biblical Quote I will do that with in depth. Start another thread.

As to what you hope I do, I appeciate the concern, however if you have been following this thread and the coversation with Cav you will see how I view the Saints. I follow the Deposit of Faith of the CC and to that in how the Saints relate. No Saint is above that. As we can conclude many made contrary statements for many reasons. Some devoloped their theological though and changed their mind. etc. However we all know God is God, and understand Marys place in the order of Grace. Do you understand the CC teaching on Mary and Her place in the order of Grace?

Actually there was a poll on CAF a few years back that showed that over 70 percent of the Catholics on this forum find that the title Mediatrix should not be made dogma,

You said; “Most Catholic’s” A CAF poll does not indicate MOST Catholics. There are over a Billion Catholic’s, 300-Thousand members of CAF, not all Catholic by far. How many took pary in the poll? Does that indicate MOST Catholics? Out of over a Billion Catholics when you can show well over 50% that you can state MOST Catholics. Its an incorrect statement and an opinion. I’m sorry you want to defend what you cannot and contnued to.

mainly because you need a whole theological explanation to follow everytime you use it. The word itself is controversial.

Thats an individual issue we as Catholic’s burden with Dogma when we “choose” to defend it. Thats not a reason “why” the Church acts with Dogma. The word is a word, so how do you mean is it controversial? In relation to what is already defined by the Church? Nothing needs to be further defined. Its all there now. Thats the point Hahn makes in his work. And he’s right all the doctrine is in place. Should catholics want to deal with Gods will defined by His Church is another issue. I find the more I study the CC work the more I understand they are absolutely correct in Morals and Faith.

I am not speaking of the underlying intentions of those who like this title. They have read up on it, and know that Mary is absolutely helpless apart from God. I am aware that the word Mediatrix, The is used in the piety of people past and present, and that what these people actually believe about Mary is not cause for scandal.

I follow you thinking, however piety and reality with Gods Kingdom are very different issues. We can rest assure Mary has a very real place in Gods Kingdom. I don’t know where you get the impression anyone is talking about anything but God working through Mary as he wills. To think otherwise is heresy, which is what Athanasius addressed.

And certainly I dont think Augustinus has written a statement about Mary that resembles what the other poster wrote. If he did, you need to prove that.

First no-one is talking Augustine so where are his quotes and from what works? And no you need to prove that. As of this point I have no idea what your talking but a claim about what Augustine states in regards to God and Mary how? And then you need to explain how his quotes apply to CC teaching and the Deposit of Faith. For he has made controversial statements when taken of context also. Predestination is a perfect example.And as you state above we need to understand how a Saint applys in relation to Constitution of the CC.

Do you think Mary died for your sins, do you think she is the way, the truth and the life? Do you think she is the door to the kingdom? Christ is THE Mediator. He is the Saviour. The other poster indicated that we as Catholics believe that these attributes belong to Mary, to which I respond that we certainly do not, and neither did Augustinus

You first sentence’s are irrelevant to this conversation. Point to the third is yes Christ is the Second Person Trinity and another link by God the Father thus God. This has nothing to do with “if” Mary can mediate by the will of God as she is Queen and we have established how this works already. Thus CCC V-II.

I don’t know what another poster implied or how in relation to this. I’m clear on this situation, As far as Dogma, I believe they have all they need to make it a reality, my personal opinion is whatever the Magesterium does, I’m fine with, I understand the theology of this. I also think it needs better wording than what I have seen thus clarification. I don’t relish the thought. Nevertheless, if its Gods will it will be. I’m not over zealous about the idea, nor do ever discuss this particular topic for it I don’t have to defend it.

Peace

 

[GaryTaylor]

intercede ˌɪntəˈsiːd]
vb (intr)

1. (often foll by in) to come between parties or act as [mediator] or advocate to intercede in the strike
2. (Historical Terms) Roman history (of a tribune or other magistrate) to interpose a veto
   [from Latin intercēdere to intervene, from inter- + cēdere to move]
   interceder

 

[GaryTaylor]

contrary.

You know what I see though is two different thoughts by the Saint.

When defending “Theotokos” against Goddess, the understanding is obvious that Mary is not a Goddess. What in essense happened with Mary through the Incarnation is She did mediate the will of God the Father through Her Faith by becoming the Mother of Jesus. “Mary said, “Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.” Luke

Marys fiat in Her Free-Will becomes a link in Salvation by Her cooperation, By Her cooperation She intercedes for God the Father in His plan for mankind. She mediates God the Fathers will at the Incarnation. For it was by Free-Will She chose to cooperate.

In the Prayer by the Saint we see yet another understanding of mediating as Queen to the King for the salvation of souls. Thus She intercedes to the Lord in and for the salvation of souls. By the will of God thus the Holy Spirit this occurs through Grace of course which She if Full of. This never changed from the time of the Annunciation, for She increased in Her role from the Annunciation to the foot of the Cross by continued participation/cooperation in Gods will. We see this increase with many Saints also.

dzheremi according to Athanasius does Mary as Queen mediate in our Salvation? Whats the OO teaching on this? Is the deposit of faith different than what Athanasius states in his prayer? I don’t want to read OO links though I’d like to hear your personal thoughts? Thus Queen, Grace, Intercede/mediate.