Orthodox and remarriage

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Cavaradossi said:
Plus, there is also precedent for repeating sacramental forms without them being held to be sacramental, as is with the case of repentant apostates who are canonically to be received by an anointing with Chrism, which is held to be non-sacramental. So it is not without merit to regard second and third marriages as non-sacramental.
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Good point. I spoke to a Coptic Orthodox bishop a long time ago (forgot his name, but it was maybe over 20 years ago when I was still in the COC) who stated, for example, that when a person is rebaptized who has already had an otherwise valid Trinitarian baptism through sprinkling, it is only to complete the FORM (i.e. immersion), not that the Sacrament is actually being repeated (though such a viewpoint may not be popular today in the COC). I even read in the old Catholic Encyclopedia that the CC has a similar perspective on the subject. But Baptism is another matter. Just mentioning it for the sake of agreement with your statement.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Eric2718 said:
Fair enough. I’ll buy the book and re-post if I have further questions.
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Eric, let me do some investigation. I think the book you are referring to is available from (of all things) a Coptic Orthodox website for free as an online reference. Can you give me the name of the book so I can be sure?

Blessings,
Marduk
 
mardukm said:
Eric, let me do some investigation. I think the book you are referring to is available from (of all things) a Coptic Orthodox website for free as an online reference. Can you give me the name of the book so I can be sure?

Blessings,
Marduk
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Awesome for thinking of me, but I’ve already ordered it from Barnes & Noble.com

If you’ll give me the Coptic site that has online books it still might be helpful.

The book title = Marriage: An Orthodox Perspective by Fr. John Meyendorff
 
Sorry to be so late to the party. There was a post on the first page that was incorrect but managed to go partly unnoticed.
ConstantineTG said:
Here’s another difference, and correct me if I am wrong here.

In Roman Catholicism, one can remarry multiple times if the spouse dies, and still receive Ordination. So if a man has been so unfortunate, say he married at 21. Spouse died when he was 25. Got married again at 30. Spouse died again when he was 35. And then remarried at 40, then not soon after he gets ordained a deacon.
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A man who has been remarried under such circumstances cannot be ordained. He can be married only once before ordination.
 
SonCatcher said:
Sorry to be so late to the party. There was a post on the first page that was incorrect but managed to go partly unnoticed.

A man who has been remarried under such circumstances cannot be ordained. He can be married only once before ordination.
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I might have missed this one. Is this in Canon Law?
 
Even here it is not clear vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_31031998_directorium-diaconi_en.html

38. “Those who have received the order of deacon, even those who are older, may not, in accordance with traditional Church discipline, enter into marriage”.(43) The same principle applies to deacons who have been widowed.(44) They are called to give proof of human and spiritual soundness in their state of life.

(43) is a bit fuzzy, it says “the same principle applies to deacons”, which give the impression the man is already a deacon. But the wording of the sentence seems to imply that this is for candidates to the diaconate, as the earlier part of the paragraph takes care of saying that an ordained deacon cannot remarry if they become a widower.
 
Eric2718 said:
The answers I’m getting aren’t really answering the questions I’m asking so I’m going to be more specific:
  1. Yes or no, if a couple is divorced are they still married in the eyes God?
  2. If the answer to #1 is “yes” then how is the remarriage not adultery?
  3. If the answer to #1 is “no” then why does the scripture say that marrying a divorced person is adultery since adultery can only happen when someone is married?
  4. “It is sinful…” Please be specific about the sin. Is it adultery or failure to limit oneself to only one marriage as is the ideal in the O. church?
Please answer the questions asked rather than provide general commentary on whether it’s sinful or not. Or please answer the questions asked then provide more material if desired. I’m not trying to be rude but the questions above are the root of what I’m asking and needing to know.
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Eric, From my understanding of marriage in the Orthodox marriage, the big goal in getting married to begin with, is to spend an eternity in heaven together, not to spend life together “till death do you part.” I think you’re looking for black and white answers to an issue that’s clearly different shades of gray.
 
Helen31 said:
Eric, From my understanding of marriage in the Orthodox marriage, the big goal in getting married to begin with, is to spend an eternity in heaven together, not to spend life together “till death do you part.” I think you’re looking for black and white answers to an issue that’s clearly different shades of gray.
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This is true. Marriage in Orthodoxy is eternal, not “'til death do us part.” The early canons regarding remarriage was actually adressing the issue of people wanting to get married after their spouse has died, not after a divorce. It is only later that it was applied to those whose marriage breaks down and out of the compassion of the Church the person is allowed to marry again. But this is a case-to-case basis that has to be worked over by the peron involved, the priest, and whoever is tasked with approving second and third marriages in the diocese, usually the Bishop or a presbyter he has appointed to that task. There is no straight answer here.
 
ConstantineTG said:
This is true. Marriage in Orthodoxy is eternal, not “'til death do us part.” … There is no straight answer here.
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Actually that is a straight answer. But it means remarriage is adultery. Fr. Meyendorff’s book on marriage quotes St. Basil the Great who says the 2nd marriage is bigamy – polygamy where one is married to 2 spouses. If the first marriage is not ended then it’s either adultery as the Lord says or it’s polygamy as St. Basil says. Both are sins. How can a priest do this? And oddly only the couple is doing something wrong (thus the penitential character of the 2nd marriage) and not the priest. But they can’t get married without him – he is the one doing the marrying.

How is it not polygamy or adultery if the first marriage lasts forever and not ended by divorce?

BTW, the local Antiochian priest and some Orthodox saints say that when a divorce happens then the marriage has ended. Which is it?
 
There really isn’t any sort of hard and fast rules on that. In the Roman Catholic chuch there are anullments which only serve to show that a sacramental marriage never existed to begin with, even though the church sanctioned the marriage and blessed the couple with the sacramental grace , and both parties (usually) believed they were in a truely sacramental marriage. Ultimately our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ himself is the only one who truely knows wether or not an individual couple was/is sacramentally married, and the only way of really knowing without a doubt is by prayer. If you’re looking for genuine answers for the purpose of finger pointing a suspected adulterer, thats really not a Christian approach you should be taking. On the other token, if you’re getting marriage minded with an Orthodox woman, it might be worth your while to go check out an Orthodox service and talk to one of the priests. If you’ve never been to an Orthodox church before, I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised with the people. It’s really a night and day difference from the Roman Catholic church to the Orthodox church. May I ask why you are so ferverant on having black and white answers?
 
Helen31 said:
There really isn’t any sort of hard and fast rules on that.
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I’m genuinely confused. You mean to tell me that in Orthodoxy there is no definite answer on whether divorce does or does not end a marriage?
May I ask why you are so ferverant on having black and white answers?
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Because I’m not happy being RC. I’ve visited the local EO parish many times and as you have said they are much warmer and friendlier than the RC parish. I’ve visited other EO parishes in other cities I’ve lived in and found the same. I’d like to convert but this issue is stopping me. I’m not out to find fault with Orthodoxy – I’d like to convert. Thus the intensity of my interest. But I’m not going to do it blindly. And I’m very concerned that I not join a church that seems to openly violate the Lord’s teachings on this. I don’t want to get into annullments here as I understand that well and I"m looking for answers about Orthodoxy.

The questions I’ve been asking aren’t hard.

Either divorce does or does not end a marriage.

If it does then how does that happen despite the Lord’s teachings to the contrary? Perhaps the same way that on his authority Moses allowed divorce to end marriages even though that was not God’s plan from the beginning?

If it does not end the marriage then how is it not adultery or polygamy? St. Basil the great calls it both where quoted in Fr. Meyendorff’s book on marriage.
 
Marriage is a Spiritual thing, and it’s a matter of the heart. Yes, “what God has brought together, let no man tear apart.” But if God has brought you together with a spouse that wants nothing more than to drag you and your family to Hell in a handbasket. Would God really want you to stay? I think not. Here’s a great article on the Orthodox Christian Marriage roca.org/OA/154/154f.htm.htm
Yes, under some circumstances you may be permitted to remarry, but not just on a whim. Husbands are called to be the leader of their family. If he’s going to lead his family to Hell, you can’t expect his wife to remain with him.
 
oh yea, :):newidea: we seem to be forgetting 1 thing Eric. LOVE
What do all those book you’re reading say about love? Does love have anything to do with begining or ending a marriage? No one’s even mentioned it yet.
 
Helen31 said:
Marriage is a Spiritual thing, and it’s a matter of the heart. Yes, “what God has brought together, let no man tear apart.” But if God has brought you together with a spouse that wants nothing more than to drag you and your family to Hell in a handbasket. Would God really want you to stay? I think not. Here’s a great article on the Orthodox Christian Marriage roca.org/OA/154/154f.htm.htm
Yes, under some circumstances you may be permitted to remarry, but not just on a whim. Husbands are called to be the leader of their family. If he’s going to lead his family to Hell, you can’t expect his wife to remain with him.
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Yes, but that’s not the same thing as dissolving a marriage. It’s hopefully only a temporary separation, and even the Catholic Church recognizes its validity in certain circumstances (like abuse). St. Paul mentions it: “A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband.” (I Cor. 7:10-11 NIV).

I saw that the OP is considering converting to Eastern Orthodoxy. OP, have you ever considered Byzantine Catholicism? I’ve been to the Divine Liturgy at a Ukrainian Greek parish numerous times, and they are very welcoming! 🙂 Plus the Liturgy is just so beautiful… Also, if you haven’t considered it already, ask yourself this question in addition to the marriage issue: What is the criteria for the Orthodox to accept a council as Ecumenical? For Catholics, the deciding factor is the ratification from the chief bishop, the pope. But what is it for Orthodoxy? It can’t simply be “the acceptance of the whole Church”, otherwise NO Council currently recognized would be Ecumenical! Here’s an article that explains the problem well:

catholic.com/magazine/articles/why-i-didn%E2%80%99t-convert-to-eastern-orthodoxy

God bless, I’m praying for you! 🙂
 
Roman Catholics keep telling me that Orthodoxy needs the pope to make clear what is actual Orthodox teaching, be an obvious source of unity, show which councils are Ecumenical, etc. etc.

Maybe it’s just me, but Orthodoxy seems to be doing all those things without His Holiness of Rome.
 
Eric2718 said:
Actually that is a straight answer. But it means remarriage is adultery. Fr. Meyendorff’s book on marriage quotes St. Basil the Great who says the 2nd marriage is bigamy – polygamy where one is married to 2 spouses. If the first marriage is not ended then it’s either adultery as the Lord says or it’s polygamy as St. Basil says. Both are sins. How can a priest do this? And oddly only the couple is doing something wrong (thus the penitential character of the 2nd marriage) and not the priest. But they can’t get married without him – he is the one doing the marrying.

How is it not polygamy or adultery if the first marriage lasts forever and not ended by divorce?

BTW, the local Antiochian priest and some Orthodox saints say that when a divorce happens then the marriage has ended. Which is it?
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Remarriage is not adultery. Remember that Scripture shouldn’t be taken as legalistic text. Adultery is a multi-faceted sin which sucks out the grace of a marriage. We know that every Sacrament has grace. The end of the marriage is when the circumstances have devoid the marriage of grace. That is when adultery happens, or anything that breaks the marital bond. It is a sin, no doubt, and due penance must be made for the sin. But any succeeding marriages (up to two more) is granted out of mercy and thus itself is not a sin.
 
Eric2718 said:
Actually that is a straight answer. But it means remarriage is adultery. Fr. Meyendorff’s book on marriage quotes St. Basil the Great who says the 2nd marriage is bigamy – polygamy where one is married to 2 spouses. If the first marriage is not ended then it’s either adultery as the Lord says or it’s polygamy as St. Basil says. Both are sins. How can a priest do this? And oddly only the couple is doing something wrong (thus the penitential character of the 2nd marriage) and not the priest. But they can’t get married without him – he is the one doing the marrying.
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Canonically, all second marriages (contracted by a man) are digamy, including marriages after the death of a spouse (this was the original context of the canon by St. Basil you are referencing; it regards the remarriage of a widower as being digamy). Remarriage in the case of a widow is permissible, according both to canon law and to the Scriptures, and so this is not discouraged canonically unless the widow is above the age of 60.
Eric2718 said:
How is it not polygamy or adultery if the first marriage lasts forever and not ended by divorce?
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In the case of the divorced or of widowers, it is polygamy, and they either have received the canonical penance for this sin, or have had the penance lessened or dispensed out of oikonomia. In the case of a widow under the age of 60, she is to be accounted blameless for the decision to remarry.
Eric2718 said:
BTW, the local Antiochian priest and some Orthodox saints say that when a divorce happens then the marriage has ended. Which is it?
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From the perspective of oikonomia, he is right. The first marriage is regarded as having ended, and the second marriage is what is enforced. From the canons and Scriptures, however, we know that remarriage is heavily discouraged, and comes with an attached penance, both for the divorced and for widowers.
 
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