Orthodox and the Blessed Virgin Mary

[Peter_J]

I would have to disagree with this statement, brother. The Eastern Orthodox have indeed developed in doctrine. Just a few examples:

This brings up another question: Did Dr. Hahn try to “have his cake and eat it to” by accusing the Orthodox of being both “stagnant in theology” and also “mistaken in doctrine”?

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I do not think that this is germane to the subject. Perhaps you could start a thread elsewhere on this subject?

Fair point, we’ve definitely left the topic pretty far behind. I’m afraid I played a big part in that, by bringing up the claims made by Dr. Hahn.

But before returning to the topic of the Orthodox and the Blessed Virgin Mary, I’d like to add one more thought about Hahn. I believe that quite a lot of people are hoping that he will comment on the statements that he made; but, quite frankly, I think that’s unlikely. Let’s face it, it’s been over 15 years since the book came out and he hasn’t done so (that I know of), and it really hasn’t hurt his popularity (that I can tell). Indeed, even among Eastern Catholics I’ve found way more Hahn-fans than Hahn-critics.

Having said that, here’s something that seems more likely to happen. I think it’s possible that the Hahns will eventually republish “Rome Sweet Home” (possibly on the 20th or 25th anniversary) in which case I could certainly see the new addition simply omitting his more controversial statements about the Eastern Orthodox.

 

[Peter_J]

But before returning to the topic of the Orthodox and the Blessed Virgin Mary, I’d like to add one more thought about Hahn. I believe that quite a lot of people are hoping that he will comment on the statements that he made; but, quite frankly, I think that’s unlikely. Let’s face it, it’s been over 15 years since the book came out and he hasn’t done so (that I know of), and it really hasn’t hurt his popularity (that I can tell). Indeed, even among Eastern Catholics I’ve found way more Hahn-fans than Hahn-critics.

Popularity among Catholics, I should have said.

 

[Hesychios]

Popularity among Catholics, I should have said.

I still have a number of things from St Joseph Communication by Scott Hahn, tapes and CD’s. I have listened to and read Hahn, Tim Staples, David Currie, Steve Wood and even Peter Kreeft.

I am planning to take some that stuff to China with me.

 

[Volodymyr]

PILGRIMAGE TO EKATINERINBURG

I invite all Orthodox Catolics to attend pilgrims for Tikhvin Mother of God at the Novo Tikhvin Female Monastery in Ekaterinburg where is such beautiful pathway for carrying of ikon decorated with flowers before Vladyka celebrating Divine Liturgy: This just happens in July, just now. I would love to go to honor Mother of God - but Urals is long distance from Kharkiv. Perhaps next year!!

http://www.sestry.ru/church/img1/prig17

http://www.sestry.ru/church/img1/prigx3

 

[Peter_J]

I still have a number of things from St Joseph Communication by Scott Hahn, tapes and CD’s. I have listened to and read Hahn, Tim Staples, David Currie, Steve Wood and even Peter Kreeft.

I am planning to take some that stuff to China with me.

Wow, I didn’t even know you were going to China. (Of course, I guess that explains your Chinese signature. )

Is St. Joseph Communication the Bud Macfarlane organization? Maybe I’m think of a different organization.

 

[Hesychios]

PILGRIMAGE TO EKATINERINBURG

I invite all Orthodox Catolics to attend pilgrims for Tikhvin Mother of God at the Novo Tikhvin Female Monastery in Ekaterinburg where is such beautiful pathway for carrying of ikon decorated with flowers before Vladyka celebrating Divine Liturgy: This just happens in July, just now. I would love to go to honor Mother of God - but Urals is long distance from Kharkiv. Perhaps next year!!

Amen!

I would also like to go and honor the Holy Theotokos. Perhaps some day we can be there together

The Tikhvin Mother of God icon has a place in our hearts here in Chicago as well!

http://www.sestry.ru/church/img1/prigx3

http://ocaphoto.oca.org/filetmp/2004/June/116/Detail/DSC_0147.jpg

Holy Trinity Cathedral
Chicago, IL. U.S.A.

 

[trophybearer]

Dear Andrew,

I did not see this question answered after you expressed it so here I go:

These prayers are prayers you are unlikely to hear unless you arrive at the Church way, way, before the Liturgy starts. The priest (and deacon) pray these prayers before entering the Altar in front of the Royal Doors (they are the “Prayers of Entrance” ). They can be found in any (complete) Divine Liturgy book (the one published by St. Tikhon’s Press for example).

The prayers do not teach Mary’s Immaculate Conception, but they certainly don’t contradict it either. In fact, as Fr. Lev Gillet (a Monk of the Eastern Church pointed out), a certain understanding of the Immaculate Conception is a (debated) part of our own Orthodox tradition the most famous adherent being St. Gregory Palamas. Certainly it is not a dogma to us as Orthodox, but it is also not a doctrine an Orthodox is bound to reject either. To adhere to or to reject this doctrine (in one form or another) is for us not a matter of dogma but to us as Orthodox but a matter of pious (and respectable) opinion.

Our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, in my view, are not separated from us here by dogma (since the Bull on the IC is not binding for me as an Orthodox Priest, it is from MY pov not a dogmatic issue even if it is such for a Roman Catholic) but by a particular emphasis on a pious opinion (which can be the opinion of an Orthodox, but is not necessarily so).

This is my two cents …

• Fr. Gregory

Forgive me Fr., but how can belief in the ‘immaculate conception’ be an acceptable pious opinion for an Orthodox Christian to hold when it’s completely contradictory to the Orthodox understanding of “original sin” and counts the Theotokos as the ‘great exception’ rather than the ‘great example’?

 

[Hesychios]

Wow, I didn’t even know you were going to China. (Of course, I guess that explains your Chinese signature. )

Is St. Joseph Communication the Bud Macfarlane organization? Maybe I’m think of a different organization.

I don’t know, it’s this company. I have been a customer for years.

Yes, I am leaving for China at the end of August for a couple of years, and I don’t know how active I will be on CAF during that time. I lost my job in January and nothing has come up, so I need to try something different. Unfortunately, there are no Orthodox parishes in the area, in fact almost no Orthodox priests since the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution.

The only Catholic parish in the area I am going to is part of the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association. It’s a shame, what once was an entire diocese (de Chefoo) is down to one single parish. I will probably visit at least once, I’ll let you know what it’s like.

 

[Peter_J]

Yes, I am leaving for China at the end of August for a couple of years, and I don’t know how active I will be on CAF during that time. I lost my job in January and nothing has come up, so I need to try something different.

Ouch. Sorry to hear that. Hope your new endevor in China works out well.

It will be a shame not to have you on CAF. As it is, we have so few Orthodox discussions here.

Unfortunately, there are no Orthodox parishes in the area, in fact almost no Orthodox priests since the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution.

The only Catholic parish in the area I am going to is part of the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association. It’s a shame, what once was an entire diocese (de Chefoo) is down to one single parish. I will probably visit at least once, I’ll let you know what it’s like.

Yes, please do.

 

[Mickey]

I hate to break this to you, but “that ridiculous statement” is from a hugely popular book, written by two hugely popular Catholic speakers. You’re not going to make it go away by ignoring it.

LOL! Popularity does not make for correct theology. I used to read a lot of Mr Hahn when I was in communion with Rome—I questioned his conclusions even then.

 

[Mickey]

Forgive me Fr., but how can belief in the ‘immaculate conception’ be an acceptable pious opinion for an Orthodox Christian to hold when it’s completely contradictory to the Orthodox understanding of “original sin” and counts the Theotokos as the ‘great exception’ rather than the ‘great example’?

This was my thought also.

 

[Father_Gregory]

Dear Trophybearer,

Forgive me Fr., but how can belief in the ‘immaculate conception’ be an acceptable pious opinion for an Orthodox Christian to hold

I think Fr. Lev Gillet - better known perhaps as “Monk of the Eastern Church” - begins to answer that question:

orrologion.blogspot.com/2008/07/immaculate-conception-and-orthodox.html

The complete series can be found on “Eirenikon” here:

eirenikon.wordpress.com/category/saints/

Just scroll down a little.

when it’s completely contradictory to the Orthodox understanding of “original sin” and counts the Theotokos as the ‘great exception’ rather than the ‘great example’?

You see, I am not so sure that there is such a really “big divide” on these issues between East and West. I would suspect that it is mostly a “Straw Man” set up by such influential writers as Fr. John Romanides and Vladimir Lossky. An Orthodox blogger wrote very well - I think - on this issue a few years ago:

razilazenje.blogspot.com/2006/12/ancestral-vs-original-sin-false.html

The Mother of God could be both a ‘Great Exception’ - which according to our own liturgical language she is - and the ‘Great Example’ - which again she is according to our own liturgical language. The Festal Menaion is a great resource for seeing how these two could be held together. I think the Menaion puts her personal ascetic feat to us as an example and her exceptional status as Mother of God as a great exception - especially concerning her conception after all only hers (and that of the Forerunner) are celebrated as feasts …

I hope this will suffice to at least entertain the possibility that perhaps Orthodoxy is broader than it is sometimes portrayed by more recent Orthodox writers. Kalomiros’ “The River of Fire” being a particularly popular, but misguided I believe, example of such over-simplified polemics. I believe there is an unhealthy over-emphasis on a particular stream of tradition at the expense of the whole tradition of our Faith.

My two cents for what it is worth (or not).

• Fr. Gregory

 

[Peter_J]

LOL! Popularity does not make for correct theology.

What?! Popular doesn’t imply correct? How can that be!?

I used to read a lot of Mr Hahn when I was in communion with Rome—I questioned his conclusions even then.

I wish I could say the same; but the truth is that the first time I read “Rome Sweet Home”, I just accepted his statements about Orthodox without question. (Or at least I think I did. I don’t remember having any kind of reaction to them.)

 

[Mickey]

You see, I am not so sure that there is such a really “big divide” on these issues between East and West.

Father bless,

There are many who believe there is a wider gap in the understanding than you seem to portray. And of course there are others who believe there is no gap at all, and that Holy Orthodoxy has always taught the IC (and other post schism Latin doctrines) without declaring them to be doctrine. As most here know, I stand with the former. I do not believe that individuals such as Fr. John Romanides, Vladimir Lossky and St John Maximovitch were simply knocking down straw men.

But then, I am the most wretched of all sinners. Forgive me and pray for me.

Mickey

 

[ronyodish]

I think Fr. Lev Gillet - better known perhaps as “Monk of the Eastern Church” - begins to answer that question:

orrologion.blogspot.com/2008/…-orthodox.html

Fr. Gregory,

Thanks for posting this link from Fr. Lev Gillet, I found the reading to be quite interesting and enlightening!

God bless!

Rony

 

[Mickey]

I think Fr. Lev Gillet - better known perhaps as “Monk of the Eastern Church” - begins to answer that question:

His Grace also refers to the figure of Archimandrite Lev (Gillet), better known as “A Monk of the Eastern Church.” Without denying his significant literary contribution to Orthodoxy in this century, we must point out that Father Lev was never, strictly speaking, Orthodox, except in name. Metropolitan Evlogy of Paris, a notorious modernist and ecumenist, received him into Orthodoxy in a most unusual way: by concelebration, no vesting, no renunciation of heresies, no Chrismation: nothing. Moreover, one need read only a few of his writings to realize that Father Lev never truly converted to Orthodoxy. Throughout his life, he considered himself to belong to both the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, in some mysterious way although at times he would say that “the light shines brighter in the Eastern Church.” We do not wish to condemn Father Lev, who by all accounts lived a life of great poverty and simplicity and who was a sympathetic spiritual Father to many people; nor do we in any way impugn the uprightness of his intentions. However, we feel it necessary to indicate “the source of the profound and extensive errors in [the] theological outlook” of a man who was, quite manifestly, “neither Orthodox in his ecclesiology nor traditional in his personal spiritual life” (“Questions and Comments from Readers,” *Orthodox Tradition, *Vol. XIII, No. 1 [1996], p. 31).
orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/review_toc.aspx

 

[trophybearer]

Father bless,

There are many who believe there is a wider gap in the understanding than you seem to portray. And of course there are others who believe there is no gap at all, and that Holy Orthodoxy has always taught the IC (and other post schism Latin doctrines) without declaring them to be doctrine. As most here know, I stand with the former. I do not believe that individuals such as Fr. John Romanides, Vladimir Lossky and St John Maximovitch were simply knocking down straw men.

But then, I am the most wretched of all sinners. Forgive me and pray for me.

Mickey

I concur.

 

[Peter_J]

His Grace also refers to the figure of Archimandrite Lev (Gillet), better known as “A Monk of the Eastern Church.” Without denying his significant literary contribution to Orthodoxy in this century, we must point out that Father Lev was never, strictly speaking, Orthodox, except in name. Metropolitan Evlogy of Paris, a notorious modernist and ecumenist, received him into Orthodoxy in a most unusual way: by concelebration, no vesting, no renunciation of heresies, no Chrismation: nothing. Moreover, one need read only a few of his writings to realize that Father Lev never truly converted to Orthodoxy. Throughout his life, he considered himself to belong to both the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, in some mysterious way although at times he would say that “the light shines brighter in the Eastern Church.” We do not wish to condemn Father Lev, who by all accounts lived a life of great poverty and simplicity and who was a sympathetic spiritual Father to many people; nor do we in any way impugn the uprightness of his intentions. However, we feel it necessary to indicate “the source of the profound and extensive errors in [the] theological outlook” of a man who was, quite manifestly, “neither Orthodox in his ecclesiology nor traditional in his personal spiritual life” (“Questions and Comments from Readers,” *Orthodox Tradition, *Vol. XIII, No. 1 [1996], p. 31).
orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/review_toc.aspx

Some good points there. I think it ought to be pointed out, however, that there are a large number of Christians who call themselves “Catholic” but who are clearly not in full communion with Pope Benedict XVI. Seems to me that Archimandrite Lev has more right to call himself “Orthodox” than those others have to call themselves “Catholic”.

 

[ronyodish]

His Grace also refers to the figure of Archimandrite Lev (Gillet), better known as “A Monk of the Eastern Church.” Without denying his significant literary contribution to Orthodoxy in this century, we must point out that Father Lev was never, strictly speaking, Orthodox, except in name. Metropolitan Evlogy of Paris, a notorious modernist and ecumenist, received him into Orthodoxy in a most unusual way: by concelebration, no vesting, no renunciation of heresies, no Chrismation: nothing. Moreover, one need read only a few of his writings to realize that Father Lev never truly converted to Orthodoxy. Throughout his life, he considered himself to belong to both the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, in some mysterious way although at times he would say that “the light shines brighter in the Eastern Church.” We do not wish to condemn Father Lev, who by all accounts lived a life of great poverty and simplicity and who was a sympathetic spiritual Father to many people; nor do we in any way impugn the uprightness of his intentions. However, we feel it necessary to indicate “the source of the profound and extensive errors in [the] theological outlook” of a man who was, quite manifestly, “neither Orthodox in his ecclesiology nor traditional in his personal spiritual life” (“Questions and Comments from Readers,” Orthodox Tradition, Vol. XIII, No. 1 [1996], p. 31).
orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/review_toc.aspx

Some good points there. I think it ought to be pointed out, however, that there are a large number of Christians who call themselves “Catholic” but who are clearly not in full communion with Pope Benedict XVI. Seems to me that Archimandrite Lev has more right to call himself “Orthodox” than those others have to call themselves “Catholic”.

Is Fr. Lev in good standing with the Eastern Orthodox? What church or monastery does he serve in? I hardly know much about the man, other than the fact that I found his article to be quite informative.

God bless,

Rony

 

[Peter_J]

I was giving this some more thought, after I posted this afternoon, especially about this part

Throughout his life, he considered himself to belong to both the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, in some mysterious way although at times he would say that “the light shines brighter in the Eastern Church.”

If this is correct, then surely we Catholics have as much, nay more, just cause for complaint as the Orthodox do. Archimandrite Lev was received into Orthodoxy (albeit in a way that bothered many Orthodox) and yet continued to claim to “belong to … the Roman Catholic Church”? I’m sure that, if the situation were reverse, the Orthodox would be quite upset.