Orthodox and the Blessed Virgin Mary

[BernadetteM]

Do the Orthodox believe that the Blessed Mary Virgin Mary was sinless?

If they do believe this, when did she become sinless? If they don’t believe in original sin why be baptized until the age of reason? Since a small child cannot sin if they have no concept of sin.

It confuses me if it is true that they don’t believe in original sin. Can someone explain this belief.

Thank you.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

do the orthodox believe that the blessed mary virgin mary was sinless?

If they do believe this, when did she become sinless? If they don’t believe in original sin why be baptized until the age of reason? Since a small child cannot sin if they have no concept of sin.

It confuses me if it is true that they don’t believe in original sin. Can someone explain this belief.

Thank you.

Yours in the hearts of jesus and mary

bernadette

good luck getting a straight answer!

 

[Hesychios]

Do the Orthodox believe that the Blessed Mary Virgin Mary was sinless?

Bernadette

Question:
“How exactly does the Orthodox Church view the sinlessness of Mary?”

Answer:
"I can say, in short, that the Orthodox Church believes that Mary, as a human being, could indeed have sinned, but chose not to… "

From Orthodox Q & A

www2.cytanet.com.cy/gogreek/theotokos_gr.gif

 

[Eucharisted]

Question:
“How exactly does the Orthodox Church view the sinlessness of Mary?”

Answer:
"I can say, in short, that the Orthodox Church believes that Mary, as a human being, could indeed have sinned, but chose not to… "

From Orthodox Q & A

www2.cytanet.com.cy/gogreek/theotokos_gr.gif

sign Why dose the Orthodox Church constantly have to attack us Catholics? There was absolutely no need to bring up the Catholic teaching on Mary and than compare it to the Orthodox teaching on Mary in a way to say Catholics are wrong. Just say what you Orthodox believe and let non-Orthodoxs be!

And for the record, we don’t believe Mary is sinless because she didn’t have Original Sin. We believe she is sinless by a singular grace which Jesus won for her by His death on the Cross, since by His Death He redeemed man and won for us every grace of God. By God’s grace, Mary was sinless throughout her life, from conception to the last breath.

Basically, Mary was holy due to God’s Mercy. It is the same as with a man who receives Holy Communion. Jesus gives him many graces, among them sanctifying grace, and so His Mercy acts in the man’s soul, turning it into a perfect mirror of God’s Image - i.e., Jesus Himself - just as He turns the bread and wine into His Body and Blood and just as He turned the water at Cana into wine.

 

[Hesychios]

sign Why dose the Orthodox Church constantly have to attack us Catholics? There was absolutely no need to bring up the Catholic teaching on Mary and than compare it to the Orthodox teaching on Mary in a way to say Catholics are wrong. Just say what you Orthodox believe and let non-Orthodoxs be!

I don’t see it as an attack.

You should note that what I quoted was very brief and to the point of the OP.

Part of the question of the person in the ‘linked Q & A’ is this:
“Doesn’t the teaching that Mary was sinless from birth state the same general concept, that Mary is more than the rest of humanity, as the Immaculate Conception (apart from the idea of original sin) except that it moves the moment of the supernatural grace of God to birth from conception?”

The questioner was asking about the apparent similarity of beliefs between your confession and mine and what you are concerned about (the ‘attack’, so to speak) is a clarification of the difference.

“Just say what you Orthodox believe and let non-Orthodoxs be!”

For the record I agree with you.

I think that sometimes we run into loaded terminology, and to answer a legitimate question we have to delve into the background of what our interlocutors understand as well as what we understand the term to mean.

But I believe if we want to know what Presbyterians believe, ask them, not a Catholic or Methodist. If we want to know what a Buddhist believes, ask them, not a Muslim, or Jehovah Witness.

Same here. If we want to know what Orthodox believe, it is best to ask on an Orthodox Website, and to learn what Latin Catholics believe it is best to ask Latin Catholics on a site like CAF.

 

[ronyodish]

"I can say, in short, that the Orthodox Church believes that Mary, as a human being, could indeed have sinned, but chose not to… "

This quote on its own is consistent with what Catholics believe about St. Mary. I didn’t read the rest of the link.

Anyways, Catholics believe that St. Mary could have sinned like all of us, but because she was filled-up with, and aided by, divine grace from the first moment of her existence, and because this plenitude of grace abided in her through out her entire life, she then was able to freely will and chose to resist all sins. In St. Mary, a perfect harmony of divine grace and man’s free will is accomplished.

For all of us created human persons, including St. Mary, no one can resist sin without the aid of divine grace. Some receive grace at an old age, when they convert to Christianity and are baptized into the Church, and are then able to fight sin on a daily basis for the remainder of their lives. Others receive grace as infants in baptism and grow up into the Church fighting sin early on from their youth. St. Mary received the fullness of grace at her conception, and grew up fighting sin all her life.

In the case of Jesus, Catholics believe that Jesus could not have sinned, because He was the Son of God, and thus incompatible with sin. In Jesus, there was more than just a perfect harmony between divine grace and man’s free will, rather, the fullness of God and the fullness of Man were united into one Person, one Son of God the Father. He and sin were incompatible by the Union of the natures, whereas with St. Mary, she and sin were at enmity with one another by her divinely aided free choice.

God bless,

Rony

 

[bpbasilphx]

The Orthodox understanding of original sin is different from the Western one.

We have inherited the EFFECTS of the fall, but not the personal guilt of it.

The Conception of the Theotokos on 9 December is a feast, but not one of the 12 Great Feasts.

Her preparation by God to be the Mother of the Messiah is celebrated on her Entrance into the Temple on 21 November.

The Orthodox call her “achrantos–immaculate”. She is immaculate and a stranger to sin and always has been, and it’s unnecessary (and possibly irreverent) to inquire further.

 

[mardukm]

The Orthodox understanding of original sin is different from the Western one.

We have inherited the EFFECTS of the fall, but not the personal guilt of it.

Do you believe the Westerns teach that we inherit guilt from Adam? Here is pretty good article from an EO who refutes that (mis)conception: razilazenje.blogspot.com/2006/12/ancestral-vs-original-sin-false.html

The Orthodox call her “achrantos–immaculate”. She is immaculate and a stranger to sin and always has been, and it’s unnecessary (and possibly irreverent) to inquire further.

But isn’t there more early Eastern witness to the IC than in the West?

Blessings

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

sign Why dose the Orthodox Church constantly have to attack us Catholics? There was absolutely no need to bring up the Catholic teaching on Mary and than compare it to the Orthodox teaching on Mary in a way to say Catholics are wrong. Just say what you Orthodox believe and let non-Orthodoxs be!

Yeah, I’ve noticed this same thing. Out of the two times I heard an Orthodox priest speak at, they identify themselves as “we are not the Catholic Church” or something like that. This always struck a chord with me because that is not how the Light of the Word, the Salt of the earth, a city set on a hill, would identify itself. But maybe its just because we are so very close, even thou we don’t want to admit it.

 

[mlouise007]

Let’s remember to be accurate when talking about what “Catholics” believe. There is a tendency, seen here in several posts, to say the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church are the beliefs of the Catholic Church. I hope we can remember that there are 21 other Catholic Churches each equal in dignity to the Roman Catholic Church. Our Eastern Catholic Churches predominately have their origins in Orthodox churches. Their tradition, spirituality and theology is basically Orthodox.

This writing from a Byzantine Catholic Theologist talks about “Original Sin” (sin), “Immaculate Conception” and the Theological Differences East and West, looking at the references in Holy Scripture for the teachings.

We are blessed to have these unique spiritual, liturgurgical, theological traditions/approaches as part of our Catholic Church. I would suggest that if it’s hard to understand how the one Catholic Church can have such different perspectives on these teachings we hold critical to our faith that is because these are indeed mysteries which the Church in her wisdom understands includes all our limited attempts at defining. Pope John Paul II of blessed memory particularly emphasized the importance of the equal dignity of our Eastern Catholic Churches which includes these teachings, different as they are from those of the Roman Catholic Church.

OP asked about the Orthodox position and it has seemed as if we have had a Catholic compared to Orthodox set of responses but it’s more correctly a Roman Catholic perspective/teaching as compared with Eastern Catholic and Orthodox perspective/teaching.

I liked the link Michael provided. At the end of Fr. John’s response there he makes an interesting and insightful reflection also: “You are correct in saying, however, that the Orthodox Church does not seem to have such a highly developed mariological tradition as the Christian West; it is, at least in my experience, only in recent times, with the growing interest in Orthodoxy especially among many evangelicals, that we have had to delve so deeply – and sometimes deeper than we should – into the role of Mary. Sometimes our answers seem somewhat lame, but in reality there is only so much one can say before one must acknowledge that, while there are certain things we simply cannot fully understand about this, reasoned faith, as defined in St James, becomes the only recourse.” (Emphasis is mine. )

 

[mardukm]

Dear sister mlouise,

Let’s remember to be accurate when talking about what “Catholics” believe. There is a tendency, seen here in several posts, to say the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church are the beliefs of the Catholic Church. I hope we can remember that there are 21 other Catholic Churches each equal in dignity to the Roman Catholic Church. Our Eastern Catholic Churches predominately have their origins in Orthodox churches. Their tradition, spirituality and theology is basically Orthodox.

I applaud any efforts understanding between East and West on the matter, but it should be pointed out that the current theological trend in EO’xy regarding Original Sin is not shared by all EO Christians. Here are just two examples:
razilazenje.blogspot.com/2006/12/ancestral-vs-original-sin-false.html

orthodoxchristianbooks.com/books/ (download the link to the book “The New Soteriology”)

So the debate is not exactly (or not just) between East and West, but rather between modern EO’xy, on the one hand, and historic EO’xy, on the other, historic EO’xy being more similar to the Western (and Oriental) position.

Of course, I accept the differences among the EO over the matter. It’s a bit of a given among the EO. I would only be wary of attempts by modern EO to pit its modern understanding AGAINST the historic position of the Church (held by other EO, OO, & CC).

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mlouise007]

Do you believe the Westerns teach that we inherit guilt from Adam? Here is pretty good article from an EO who refutes that (mis)conception: razilazenje.blogspot.com/2006/12/ancestral-vs-original-sin-false.html
Blessings

Thanks for that link. It will take me a few more passes through it to digest it properly

(This is an interesting quote from it: “…I do so not to defend Western Christianity, though I often feel compelled to since that tradition is so deeply misrepresented…” – maybe in sympathy with several comments made here.)

blessings- Marylouise

 

[mlouise007]

Dear sister mlouise,
I applaud any efforts understanding between East and West on the matter, but it should be pointed out that the current theological trend in EO’xy regarding Original Sin is not shared by all EO Christians…

So the debate is not exactly (or not just) between East and West, but rather between modern EO’xy, on the one hand, and historic EO’xy, on the other, historic EO’xy being more similar to the Western (and Oriental) position.
Blessings,
Marduk

Yes, thus my (inadequate) attempt to qualify my comments with “predominately have their origins in Orthodox churches… basically Orthodox.”

We could also return to Chaldean Rite’s origional post here

Thanks for this second link, too.
Blessings- Marylouise

 

[trophybearer]

Thanks for that link. It will take me a few more passes through it to digest it properly

(This is an interesting quote from it: “…I do so not to defend Western Christianity, though I often feel compelled to since that tradition is so deeply misrepresented…” – maybe in sympathy with several comments made here.)

blessings- Marylouise

Mardukum is an apostate Orthodox who regularly deludes himself so as to justify his apostacy. He claims to speak for Coptic Orthodoxy when in reality no Orthodox Copt would agree with him, and I know my share. My priest grew up a Copt and is now a priest in the Antiochian Orthodox Church. Don’t let him feign otherwise.

 

[ronyodish]

Let’s remember to be accurate when talking about what “Catholics” believe. There is a tendency, seen here in several posts, to say the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church are the beliefs of the Catholic Church. I hope we can remember that there are 21 other Catholic Churches each equal in dignity to the Roman Catholic Church. Our Eastern Catholic Churches predominately have their origins in Orthodox churches. Their tradition, spirituality and theology is basically Orthodox.

This writing from a Byzantine Catholic Theologist talks about “Original Sin” (sin), “Immaculate Conception” and the Theological Differences East and West, looking at the references in Holy Scripture for the teachings.

We are blessed to have these unique spiritual, liturgurgical, theological traditions/approaches as part of our Catholic Church. I would suggest that if it’s hard to understand how the one Catholic Church can have such different perspectives on these teachings we hold critical to our faith that is because these are indeed mysteries which the Church in her wisdom understands includes all our limited attempts at defining. Pope John Paul II of blessed memory particularly emphasized the importance of the equal dignity of our Eastern Catholic Churches which includes these teachings, different as they are from those of the Roman Catholic Church.

OP asked about the Orthodox position and it has seemed as if we have had a Catholic compared to Orthodox set of responses but it’s more correctly a Roman Catholic perspective/teaching as compared with Eastern Catholic and Orthodox perspective/teaching.

I liked the link Michael provided. At the end of Fr. John’s response there he makes an interesting and insightful reflection also: “You are correct in saying, however, that the Orthodox Church does not seem to have such a highly developed mariological tradition as the Christian West; it is, at least in my experience, only in recent times, with the growing interest in Orthodoxy especially among many evangelicals, that we have had to delve so deeply – and sometimes deeper than we should – into the role of Mary. Sometimes our answers seem somewhat lame, but in reality there is only so much one can say before one must acknowledge that, while there are certain things we simply cannot fully understand about this, reasoned faith, as defined in St James, becomes the only recourse.” (Emphasis is mine. )

mlouise007,

The beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church are indeed the beliefs of the Catholic Church. Likewise, the beliefs of the Chaldean, Melkite, Maronite, Coptic, Armenian, etc. are also indeed the beliefs of the Catholic Church. The beliefs of each particular Catholic Church is the beliefs of the universal Catholic Church. In other words, the faith of the Latin Church is the same faith of the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches. We have one faith descended from the Apostles.

The differences between us, the various different kinds of Catholics, is how we express the faith, not the faith itself. The faith is one. Our expressions, or forms, of the one faith are many. We are a pluriformed union or communion of Catholic Churches.

Our various complementary expressions of the one faith are not merely in matters of liturgy as some Catholics think, rather, we also have our various expressions in theology, spirituality, and canonical disciplines, as you pointed out. Catholics have to be careful not to fall into two extremes: one extreme is relativism, where each particular Catholic Church has her own faith in contradiction to the faith of another Catholic Church; the other extreme is uniformity, where each particular Catholic Church has the same form/expression in liturgy, theology, spirituality, and disciplines. Catholics must maintain a balance between these two extremes.

There are six major traditions in the Catholic Church (Latin, Constantinopolitan, Alexandrian, Antiochene, Armenian, and Assyro-Chaldean), and each tradition has her own theology, liturgy, spirituality, and disciplines. Yet, we all possess the same one faith handed down by the Apostles.

By the way, my particular Chaldean Catholic Church of the East neither has her origins in an Orthodox Church, nor is our theology, liturgy, spirituality, and disciplines, basically Orthodox. We are neither from the Eastern Orthodox nor are we from the Oriental Orthodox. We originate from the Church of the East. Our Chaldean Catholic Church, and our sister Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, as well as, our two non-Catholic sisters (Assyrian Church of the East, and Ancient Church of the East), all are daughters of what was once originally and simply known as the Church of the East.

God bless,

Rony

 

[mardukm]

Mardukum is an apostate Orthodox who regularly deludes himself so as to justify his apostacy. He claims to speak for Coptic Orthodoxy when in reality no Orthodox Copt would agree with him, and I know my share. My priest grew up a Copt and is now a priest in the Antiochian Orthodox Church. Don’t let him feign otherwise.

The links I gave her were to statements by EO, not Coptic Orthodox. But, I’ll take up your bluff on what the Coptic Orthodox teach on Original Sin in the Non-Catholic Forum if you want to start a thread here.

Blessings

 

[mlouise007]

Rony-

Catholics have to be careful not to fall into two extremes: one extreme is relativism, where each particular Catholic Church has her own faith in contradiction to the faith of another Catholic Church; the other extreme is uniformity, where each particular Catholic Church has the same form/expression in liturgy, theology, spirituality, and disciplines. Catholics must maintain a balance between these two extremes.

Well said. I agree with all you’ve said. If in the way I brought up the fact of our many expressions I sounded like I was speaking from an extreme I certainly didn’t intend to.

By the way, my particular Chaldean Catholic Church of the East neither has her origins in an Orthodox Church, nor is our theology, liturgy, spirituality, and disciplines, basically Orthodox…

I’m sorry I painted with too broad a brush, trying to gloss over with “predominately have their origins in Orthodox churches… basically Orthodox.” I appreciate your correction. If you have some references in English that would explore the latter I’d be grateful to have them.

I’ve only been to one Chaldean church, vespers last summer at the St. Peter Chaldean Catholic Cathedral in So CA. I’m looking forward to one Sunday this month going to a somewhat local Assyrian Chaldean Catholic Church thanks to the invitation from Anthony here. Since the death of Archbishop Rahho I’ve felt such deep sadness. I’ve tried to learn more about Chaldean Catholics but the press in English seems weak and in any case is not ever about theology, liturgy, spirituality, and disciplines.

Blessings- Marylouise

 

[ronyodish]

Well said. I agree with all you’ve said. If in the way I brought up the fact of our many expressions I sounded like I was speaking from an extreme I certainly didn’t intend to.

Marylouise,

No problem

I’m sorry I painted with too broad a brush, trying to gloss over with “predominately have their origins in Orthodox churches… basically Orthodox.” I appreciate your correction. If you have some references in English that would explore the latter I’d be grateful to have them.

That’s alright, many people confuse us with our Byzantine Catholic brethren and their Eastern Orthodox counterparts, even professors of theology. When they don’t make that mistake, they make the next subsequent mistake, and that is, they assume that the issues that the Greek and Latin Christians commonly debate over are the same issues that concern us Assyro-Chaldeans, when often times, they are inapplicable to us.

You did say predominately, so you are technically correct, the majority of Eastern and Oriental Catholics share, basically, the same Orthodox traditions of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches. We just happen to be a minor except to that.

We are still in the process of translating many aspects of our Assyro-Chaldean tradition into the English language, and so, the English resources are limited.

For theology, I’m still waiting for the future formation of a particular catechism for the Chaldean Catholic Church, which should become a good source of our particular theology. Currently, there are a few English material on the Church of the East theology/exegesis available from a few publications like Atour and Gorgias. There is an online English copy of the Book of Marganitha (The Pearl), On the Truth of Christianity, by Mar Abdisho, which has a theological elaboration on the Faith. One particular Biblical commentary is by Isho’dad of Merv (Vol 1, and 2).

As far as Spirituality, you can check the writings of Mar Isaac of Nineveh, one of the greatest Saints of the Church of the East. There is also a small and concise book called Spiritual Treasures from the Chaldean Tradition, which you can check out. A nice addition is Fr. Andrew’s translation of a book known as The Book of Before & After, a prayer/psalms/hymns book.

For the liturgy of the Eucharist, you can go to Kaldu.org for an online English copy. In the Chaldean Church, we have a liturgical breviary called the Hudra, but there is no, as far as I know, a complete English translation of it.

For the particular disciplines of our Church, I am not aware of any English versions of that.

I’ve only been to one Chaldean church, vespers last summer at the St. Peter Chaldean Catholic Cathedral in So CA. I’m looking forward to one Sunday this month going to a somewhat local Assyrian Chaldean Catholic Church thanks to the invitation from Anthony here. Since the death of Archbishop Rahho I’ve felt such deep sadness. I’ve tried to learn more about Chaldean Catholics but the press in English seems weak and in any case is not ever about theology, liturgy, spirituality, and disciplines.

I hope you have a great time in visiting the Assyrian-Chaldean Catholic Church! If you ever get a chance to meet Bishop Mar Bawai Soro, he can help answer any question you might have on our Assyrian-Chaldean tradition. He is one of the brightest bishops our Catholic Church of the East has in her hierarchy.

God bless,

Rony

 

[Peter_J]

The Orthodox understanding of original sin is different from the Western one.

We have inherited the EFFECTS of the fall, but not the personal guilt of it.

The Conception of the Theotokos on 9 December is a feast, but not one of the 12 Great Feasts.

Her preparation by God to be the Mother of the Messiah is celebrated on her Entrance into the Temple on 21 November.

The Orthodox call her “achrantos–immaculate”. She is immaculate and a stranger to sin and always has been, and it’s unnecessary (and possibly irreverent) to inquire further.

Hi bpbasilphx. Haven’t seen you around here lately.

I’m curious about 9 December not being one of the 12 Great Feasts. Of course, I guess it might help if I knew what the 12 Great Feasts are. Could you list them, or give a link?

Thanks in advance,

 

[Volodymyr]

****ДВУНАДЕСЯТЫЕ ПРАЗДНИКИ (12 Main Feasts of Orthodoxy)

---

In the services of Orthodox church 12 great holidays of the yearly liturgical cyle not including Feast of all Feasts, Holy Paskha. This are celebrated for Jesus Christ and for Mother of God. These are: 1. Birth Most Holy Mother of God, 2. Erection Holy Cross of Lord, 3. Entrance in Temple of Most Holy Mother of God, 4. Birth of Christ, 5. Baptism of Lord , 6. Meeting of Lord, 7. Announcement to Holy Mother of God. 8. Entrance of Lord to Ieruslaem, 9. Assumption of Lord, 10. Trinity - Pentecost, 11. Transformation of the Lord, 12. Falling Asleep of Most Holy Mother of God.

Also great but not-12 listed holidays are Protection of Most Holy Mother of God, Circumcision of Lord, Birth of Ioan the Forerunner, Day of Holy First Apostles Peter and Paul, Beheading of Ioann the Forerunner.

Conception of Anna and Ioakim in December is important but not great Feast. But this feast together with Entrance Most Holy Mother of God into temple are explaining Mary’s spotlessness. We believe Ioakim and Anna were Holy persons who were given a Holy, but human person, daughter. To help her be close to God, she was entrusted at young age to Temple, where she lived a sinless life, knowing the will of God and following example of her Holy Parents and forerunners. You can read discussion of this in sermon of St. Gregory Palamas on day of Entrance into temple.

orthodox.net/sermons/entry-of-the-theotokos-saint-gregory-palamas.html