Orthodox Bible Canon vs. Catholic Bible Canon

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Hi, I understand that the Orthodox have more OT? books in the bible than Catholics. How can this be possible if they broke away (or as they say, Catholics broke away) from the One Holy Apostolic Catholic(?) Church in 1054A.D. with the schism and they were sharing the same bible canon since the 400s?

Please be concise if possible. Thank you for your help in advance.
God Bless You!
Brian
 
Hi, I understand that the Orthodox have more OT? books in the bible than Catholics. How can this be possible if they broke away (or as they say, Catholics broke away) from the One Holy Apostolic Catholic(?) Church in 1054A.D. with the schism and they were sharing the same bible canon since the 400s?

Please be concise if possible. Thank you for your help in advance.
God Bless You!
Brian
Because they weren’t sharing the same biblical canon since the 400s, nor do they even necessarily share the same theology of canon per se with the Latinate church.

If you want to see the differences in the various canons, this chart is handy and accurate as far as I know:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon (scroll down).

Also, when you reference 1054, you’re only speaking of the Byzantine (Greek Orthodox) Church, which is only one of the various Orthodox Churches that have parted ways with Rome over the centuries. Your comments make it sound as though this was the first major break among the Ancient Churches who were communion with Rome, which isn’t the case.
 
Hi, I understand that the Orthodox have more OT? books in the bible than Catholics. How can this be possible if they broke away (or as they say, Catholics broke away) from the One Holy Apostolic Catholic(?) Church in 1054A.D. with the schism and they were sharing the same bible canon since the 400s?

Please be concise if possible. Thank you for your help in advance.
God Bless You!
Brian
Because there was no universally agreed on canon, ever. No ecumenical council promulgated one. The EO and the Miaphysites used (translations of) the Septuagint, which contains more books than the Catholic canon. I wonder why the Latins don’t use those books, not that it matters.
 
Hi, Thank you for the posts.

I do remember now that the Armenian? Church broke in the 300s? or were not even ever Catholic and might claim to be founded by one of the first Apostles. I wonder what cannon they use. I think some of those churches came under the Pope and probably changed canon. I wonder what Canon they use.

The Greek Orthodox, i thought since they were in COMMUNION? with the Catholic church under the Pope? would have used the same canon. I am new to this study. Thanks for your help.

I actually saw the WIKI sight and that is the reason i am asking these questions here : ) In hopes that i will soon one day revert to the Catholic church!!

Thank you for the help!!
Brian
 
Because they weren’t sharing the same biblical canon since the 400s, nor do they even necessarily share the same theology of canon per se with the Latinate church.

If you want to see the differences in the various canons, this chart is handy and accurate as far as I know:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon (scroll down).

Also, when you reference 1054, you’re only speaking of the Byzantine (Greek Orthodox) Church, which is only one of the various Orthodox Churches that have parted ways with Rome over the centuries. Your comments make it sound as though this was the first major break among the Ancient Churches who were communion with Rome, which isn’t the case.
Hi, Thank you for the posts.

I do remember now that the Armenian? Church broke in the 300s? or were not even ever Catholic and might claim to be founded by one of the first Apostles. I wonder what cannon they use. I think some of those churches came under the Pope and probably changed canon. I wonder what Canon they use.

The Greek Orthodox, i thought since they were in COMMUNION? with the Catholic church under the Pope? would have used the same canon. I am new to this study. Thanks for your help.

I actually saw the WIKI sight and that is the reason i am asking these questions here : ) In hopes that i will soon one day revert to the Catholic church!!

Thank you for the help!!
Brian
 
Because there was no universally agreed on canon, ever. No ecumenical council promulgated one. The EO and the Miaphysites used (translations of) the Septuagint, which contains more books than the Catholic canon. I wonder why the Latins don’t use those books, not that it matters.
Hi, What is your background. I was raised Catholic, and now close to reverting and being a peace with THE ONE TRUE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH : )

It has been a long journey since 2004 when i told my protestant friend, at least you can become Methodist, but i cannot ever be Catholic… since Catholics work their way to heaven… and i am by no means a great intellect or book reader.

God has been working on me and i don’t think it is ONLY my upbringing. I was somewhat angry in my heart in what Catholics taught at times… but now i am beginning to have my eyes opened more and more : )

God Bless You!
Brian
 
Hi, Thank you for the posts.

I do remember now that the Armenian? Church broke in the 300s? or were not even ever Catholic and might claim to be founded by one of the first Apostles. I wonder what cannon they use. I think some of those churches came under the Pope and probably changed canon. I wonder what Canon they use.
Two cents: actually the Armenians only officially severed ties with both Rome and Constantinople in 554 at the second Council of Dvin, which rejected the dyophysite formulation of Chalcedon (AD 451).
 
GodHeals
Hi, I understand that the Orthodox have more OT? books in the bible than Catholics. How can this be possible…?
Saint Jerome translated the ancient Greek and Hebrew Old Testament (46 books) and the Greek New Testament (27 books) into Latin and combined them into the first one volume set of Sacred Scriptures called “the Bible” – Fr. John Trigilio on Aug/20/2010 (EWTN)

The books that actually are the inspired Word of God was decided by Pope Damasus at a Council of Rome in 382, and this has been irreformable, confirmed at the Councils of Hippo, 393, Carthage III 397, Carthage IV in 419 and canonised at the Ecumenical Council of Trent (1545-1563).

It is clear from Scripture that Jesus established His Church on His First Vicar Peter.
Jesus specifically entrusts Peter with His authority and confers infallibility:
All four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)

Sole authority to Peter:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

No one else has any authority to change what Christ’s Catholic Church has declared, but throughout history others have tried to exert their own self-will.
 
Because there was no universally agreed on canon, ever. No ecumenical council promulgated one. The EO and the Miaphysites used (translations of) the Septuagint, which contains more books than the Catholic canon. I wonder why the Latins don’t use those books, not that it matters.
I don’t think an ecumenical council was ever needed to validate what the local synod of Rome (circa 382) and the Councils of Hippo (393 AD) and Carthage (397) had decided on. This was the Canon that the western half of the Church (the Latin Rite) used. Ecumenical Councils were mainly called to help clarify a doctrine (or doctrines) that is threatening to tear the Church apart.

The Greek Church, IMO, was never the cohesive Church that the Latin Church was (and is). Most of the great heresies of the One Church (when Greeks and Latins were united) sprang up from and took hold in the East. The patriarchs alliances with the secular rulers tended to cloud the issue as well.

This would affect the Western popes in the 10th-15th centuries in a similar way, where the pope had a large amount of secular power. But luckily, these guys were more interested in other matters than teaching in error.
 
Here’s a very lengthy, but well-worth-reading explanation:
newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm

Although Rome officially declared the Canon of the OT in 382, still there were many and continuing disagreements about the Canon of the OT. Some of the reasons revolved around the difference between the Hellenist Jews’ (Alexandrian) Bible and the Hebrew Jews’ (Palestinian) Bible.

The NT was accepted by the year 405, I believe, and was largely left undisputed until the 16th Century.
 
Hi, What is your background. I was raised Catholic, and now close to reverting and being a peace with THE ONE TRUE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH : )

It has been a long journey since 2004 when i told my protestant friend, at least you can become Methodist, but i cannot ever be Catholic… since Catholics work their way to heaven… and i am by no means a great intellect or book reader.

God has been working on me and i don’t think it is ONLY my upbringing. I was somewhat angry in my heart in what Catholics taught at times… but now i am beginning to have my eyes opened more and more : )

God Bless You!
Brian
Well, I have no quarrel with the CC. My best friends are Catholic, I’m in a Catholic school and I love Latin. I just like to question everything, even when I agree on it, like the canon, but I love debate. This is my handicap that cannot be helped 😉

My background is reformed protestantism, if that helps.
 
Well, I have no quarrel with the CC. My best friends are Catholic, I’m in a Catholic school and I love Latin. I just like to question everything, even when I agree on it, like the canon, but I love debate. This is my handicap that cannot be helped 😉

My background is reformed protestantism, if that helps.
So reformed protestantism is Calvin teachings of sorts, like the Presbyterian Church?

I like to question all sorts of things, as well. Since, i do a lot of personal studies, and don’t have many friends that like a good debate (known as effective reasoning if done right, i heard, or persuasive talks, which is what every relationship is all about in the first place in one way or another), i seem to push some of them away… so i am learning much about relationships too, in this process!

I may have to go back for a Masters in order to find people to debate my God given interests : ) I heard the Jews back in the days did this sort of thing for entertainment and spiritual growth! I need these types of friends, it seems!
 
Saint Jerome translated the ancient Greek and Hebrew Old Testament (46 books) and the Greek New Testament (27 books) into Latin and combined them into the first one volume set of Sacred Scriptures called “the Bible” – Fr. John Trigilio on Aug/20/2010 (EWTN)

The books that actually are the inspired Word of God was decided by Pope Damasus at a Council of Rome in 382, and this has been irreformable, confirmed at the Councils of Hippo, 393, Carthage III 397, Carthage IV in 419 and canonised at the Ecumenical Council of Trent (1545-1563).

It is clear from Scripture that Jesus established His Church on His First Vicar Peter.
Jesus specifically entrusts Peter with His authority and confers infallibility:
All four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)

Sole authority to Peter:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

No one else has any authority to change what Christ’s Catholic Church has declared, but throughout history others have tried to exert their own self-will.
THANK YOU ALL FOR THE POSTINGS!!

I am somewhat confused now though… i thought the Catholic Church had a BIGGER (Besides Peter being the rock and Rome and such) say in all of this. I didn’t know the Eastern? (equal all Orthodox churches?) had such a big say and weren’t ever really in agreement with the Catholic Church.

So does it all rest on ST. PETER then? I guess i need to read that LONG new advent Canon of the Old Testament and similar articles… i thought there were easy answers 🙂

God Bless You!
Brian
 
THANK YOU ALL FOR THE POSTINGS!!

I am somewhat confused now though… i thought the Catholic Church had a BIGGER (Besides Peter being the rock and Rome and such) say in all of this. I didn’t know the Eastern? (equal all Orthodox churches?) had such a big say and weren’t ever really in agreement with the Catholic Church.

So does it all rest on ST. PETER then? I guess i need to read that LONG new advent Canon of the Old Testament and similar articles… i thought there were easy answers 🙂

God Bless You!
Brian
Even though the Catholic Canon is traceable to the local synods of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage, they were not ecumenical at the time. But history has shown them to be the point of origin of a certified Catholic canon. By the time ecumenical councils of Florence (15th century) and Trent (16th century) affirmed those ancient canons, the Orthodox weren’t recognizing ecumenical councils.

Also, let it be noted, that according even to some Orthodox, the Orthodox themselves do not have an agreed upon canon. For example, Orthodox priest Fr. Stergiou writes: “there are also inconsistencies in the different Traditions of Orthodoxy on which books are to be included in the greater Canon.”

At the heart of it, if you think about it, since there are Orthodox traditions that have more contents in their canons than the Catholic Bibles, they really are not disunited with the Catholic claim of the 73 books. Orthodox agree those 73 books are divinely inspired. On that point, the Orthodox and Catholics are in agreement before and after 1054. It should also be noted that the Orthodox do not point to an ecumenical council that determined the canon.

And although this may be slightly controversial, I think it’s worth pointing out. The language of the Council of Trent said this:*And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one’s mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below … [lists the books] … But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts…let him be anathema.*To me that does not refer to a closed canon, but identifies what has been received. It is an affirmation of X, not a denial of Y, per se. Some may argue that the Ordinary Magisterium has closed the canon by its actions, and that is a valid argument. On the other hand, the Council of Trent, when considering the issue of the canonicity of a few other books, the Council elected not to explicitly reject those books. Catholic canon historian Gary Michuta writes:*This is a matter of record, not of interpretation. On March 29, 1546 the Council Fathers took up the fourth of fourteen questions (Capita Dubitationum) on Scripture and Tradition. At issue was whether those books that were not included in the official list, but were included in the Latin Vulgate (e.g. The Book of Esdras, Fourth Ezra, and Third Maccabees), should be rejected by a Conciliar decree, or be passed over in silence. Only three Fathers voted for an explicit rejection. Forty-two voted that the status of these books should be passed over in silence. *Now, all that being said, I don’t foresee any sign of the Catholic canon adding books. I think those arguing for a closed canon via the Ordinary Magisterium could make a decent argument. However, I think it’s also a viable argument to say the Catholic decrees on the canon do not contradict the Orthodox canons. It’s one thing to say A is true, and B is not true and another thing to just say A is true without commenting on B. Anyway, maybe the Spirit will eventually sort that out more clearly, at least to foggy people like me. :o
 
Even though the Catholic Canon is traceable to the local synods of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage, they were not ecumenical at the time. But history has shown them to be the point of origin of a certified Catholic canon. By the time ecumenical councils of Florence (15th century) and Trent (16th century) affirmed those ancient canons, the Orthodox weren’t recognizing ecumenical councils.

Also, let it be noted, that according even to some Orthodox, the Orthodox themselves do not have an agreed upon canon. For example, Orthodox priest Fr. Stergiou writes: “there are also inconsistencies in the different Traditions of Orthodoxy on which books are to be included in the greater Canon.”

At the heart of it, if you think about it, since there are Orthodox traditions that have more contents in their canons than the Catholic Bibles, they really are not disunited with the Catholic claim of the 73 books. Orthodox agree those 73 books are divinely inspired. On that point, the Orthodox and Catholics are in agreement before and after 1054. It should also be noted that the Orthodox do not point to an ecumenical council that determined the canon.

And although this may be slightly controversial, I think it’s worth pointing out. The language of the Council of Trent said this:*And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one’s mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below … [lists the books] … But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts…let him be anathema.*To me that does not refer to a closed canon, but identifies what has been received. It is an affirmation of X, not a denial of Y, per se. Some may argue that the Ordinary Magisterium has closed the canon by its actions, and that is a valid argument. On the other hand, the Council of Trent, when considering the issue of the canonicity of a few other books, the Council elected not to explicitly reject those books. Catholic canon historian Gary Michuta writes:*This is a matter of record, not of interpretation. On March 29, 1546 the Council Fathers took up the fourth of fourteen questions (Capita Dubitationum) on Scripture and Tradition. At issue was whether those books that were not included in the official list, but were included in the Latin Vulgate (e.g. The Book of Esdras, Fourth Ezra, and Third Maccabees), should be rejected by a Conciliar decree, or be passed over in silence. Only three Fathers voted for an explicit rejection. Forty-two voted that the status of these books should be passed over in silence. *Now, all that being said, I don’t foresee any sign of the Catholic canon adding books. I think those arguing for a closed canon via the Ordinary Magisterium could make a decent argument. However, I think it’s also a viable argument to say the Catholic decrees on the canon do not contradict the Orthodox canons. It’s one thing to say A is true, and B is not true and another thing to just say A is true without commenting on B. Anyway, maybe the Spirit will eventually sort that out more clearly, at least to foggy people like me. :o
Awesome info!..I would like to see where Gary Michuta received his info from, in regards to the other books being voted to be passed over in silence. Do you know where I could obtain this source?
 
GodHeals #12
i thought the Catholic Church had a BIGGER (Besides Peter being the rock and Rome and such) say in all of this. I didn’t know the Eastern?
The Catholic Church has always been the only Church established by Jesus the Christ, but from the beginning there have been dissenters and heretics.

There is the Latin Rite, and the Eastern Rite of the Catholic Church with the same dogma and doctrine; naturally, all of these are in union with the See of Peter and assent to Papal Supremacy.

The Orthodox Churches have broken with the See of Peter since 1054, and are individualistic among themselves.

With free-will and selfism, St Paul attests: “I know that after my departure…of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them.” [Acts 20:30].
 
Awesome info!..I would like to see where Gary Michuta received his info from, in regards to the other books being voted to be passed over in silence. Do you know where I could obtain this source?
No, but his website is handsonapologetics.com. :o
His book Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger also will have the footnotes. And it is a great book. I don’t have it handy or I’d try to find that page. The quote above I found on his website.
 
Saint Jerome translated the ancient Greek and Hebrew Old Testament (46 books) and the Greek New Testament (27 books) into Latin and combined them into the first one volume set of Sacred Scriptures called “the Bible” – Fr. John Trigilio on Aug/20/2010 (EWTN)

The books that actually are the inspired Word of God was decided by Pope Damasus at a Council of Rome in 382, and this has been irreformable, confirmed at the Councils of Hippo, 393, Carthage III 397, Carthage IV in 419 and canonised at the Ecumenical Council of Trent (1545-1563).
Actually the synods at Rome, Hippo and Carthage made no decision as to what was the “inspired word of God”. That term is never used. Rather the canon was to designate those writings which were suitable to be read in the liturgy [the Mass] of the Church. The canon was not set until possibly the council of Trent and even then there is some discussion as to whether it was set then. The Council of Trent lists books received by the Church as sacred but never calls them inspired. I believe the idea of scripture as the “inspired word of God” is protestant in origin to buttress their doctrine of sola scriptura or fini scriptura or whatever the current manifestation of the doctrine is.
 
Actually the synods at Rome, Hippo and Carthage made no decision as to what was the “inspired word of God”. That term is never used. Rather the canon was to designate those writings which were suitable to be read in the liturgy [the Mass] of the Church. The canon was not set until possibly the council of Trent and even then there is some discussion as to whether it was set then. The Council of Trent lists books received by the Church as sacred but never calls them inspired. I believe the idea of scripture as the “inspired word of God” is protestant in origin to buttress their doctrine of sola scriptura or fini scriptura or whatever the current manifestation of the doctrine is.
Whoa!..Catholics have always believed Scripture to be the “inspired word of God.” This is not Protestant in origin…but, rather, it is fundamental to a basic truth of what Scripture is.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work
.

And yes, those councils did intend to decide which books were to be read as “Divine Scripture.”
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xv.iv.iv.xxv.html
 
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