Orthodox / Catholic Joint Prayer Eve of the Feast of Sts. Peter & Paul

[1Tim215Mommy]

A local Catholic Church last night held a joint prayer service Orthodox / Catholic for the Eve of today’s Sts. Peter & Paul. I was told that it would be Vespers - it wasn’t anything that even vaguely resembled Vespers. The local Roman Bishop & several Catholic Priests came. An Orthodox Priest gave the homily and I noticed 1 other Orthodox Priest in attendance.

The “joint” prayers were all non-Orthodox prayers and the songs with music were non-Orthodox. Other than the Orthodox Priest giving the homily, there wasn’t anything particularly Orthodox about the joint prayer service. The songs were split up so have the room sang a paragraph & then the other half sang a paragraph, in similar fashion as the Row, Row, Row, Your Boat Gently Down the Stream.

We were encouraged to unite with Catholics to organize our laity to do: joint book studies and socio/political-type events together.

There was an encouragement given to Catholics to checkout our parish’s Orthodox Bookstore to learn more about Orthodoxy.

Inside the Catholic Church was very different. The narthex had a rug on the wall. There was no place to light a candle, no icons, no statues either, in fact no images at all. There was a stage with seats in the center of it facing…us, the audience? Similar to the set of a Talk Show. There was a pillar on one side of the stage with a gold square, maybe it was a Catholic tabernacle? But maybe not because when the Catholic priest incensed the empty altar, he didn’t incense the pilar or gold box. But then, it was the only thing that might have been. It boils down to, I only knew I was in a Church because of the sign and because one of the Catholic Priests at the beginning said “Welcome to our Church”.

The people were very friendly afterward. Offering cookies, cake, water & punch. Some of the women were particularly fawning over me and my youngest, then it was revealed through our conversation that they’d thought I was one of the priest’s wife. Once I cleared it up that I wasn’t I was left alone as they went in search of the Presbytera.

I’m glad I attended, but don’t think I would again.

Thoughts, Comments, Questions anyone?

 

[JMJ_coder]

I think there are several strains of thought. There is the Vespers itself, the architecture of the Church, the joint prayer, etc.

The first thing I want to comment on is - hooray! We should strive for more joint prayer. Not through our efforts, but only through prayer and the grace of God will our divisions be healed.

The second thing I noticed in your post was that you were expecting some form of Orthodox liturgy to be incorporated in some fashion. I don’t know the nature of what was intended, but in my local Orthodox-Catholic ecumenical group we alternate visiting sites. One meeting is at an Orthodox Church and the next is at a Catholic Church (of varying rites). We always begin each meeting with prayer and whoever hosts the meeting does the prayer from their tradition. For example, on one occasion at an Orthodox Church we started with a Moleben to the Blessed Virgin (I believe it was on one of her feast days). When we hosted it at my parish, we did Vespers according to the current Roman Ritual.

Now, I don’t know what exactly you experienced at the Vespers. For most parishes, Vespers is a foreign concept, unfortunately. If this was their first attempt at it, it may not have gone…um, smoothly. Now, I also don’t know what songs/hymns were sung - hopefully not Row, Row, Row Your Boat. But, here is brief overview of how Vespers is done in the Roman Rite:

Inviatory
Opening Hymn
Antiphon 1
Psalm 1
Antiphon 2
Psalm 2
Antiphon 3
Canticle
Reading
Homily (optional)
Magnificat
Petitions
Our Father
Closing Prayer

Now, in the Roman Rite it is traditional to alternate Psalm stanzas between two ‘choirs’. This goes back to the Middle Ages.

As to the architecture of the church building. I don’t have enough information to go on, but sacred architecture after the middle of the 20th century has been, in general, a disaster. Too many documents were misinterpreted, intentionally or ignorantly, to allow a whole hosts of errors, such as a loss of statues and icons and stained glass windows, tabernacles placed out of sight and mind, etc., etc. Things are getting better, but slowly. This really deserves its own thread (or 100).

 

[Ad_Orientem]

Thoughts, Comments, Questions anyone?

There is authentic ecumenism and false. Vatican II’s Unitatis Redintegratio gives guidelines for carrying out the former.

Pope Pius XI discusses the latter in his 1928 encyclical Mortalium Animos. Unfortunately the errors he condemned are still alive and well among indifferentists, pluralists, and those on the “spirit of Vatican II” (but not what the Council actually said) bandwagon.

Based on your remarks about the modernist architecture and fondness for “presbytera,” I would be afraid that the event in question might fall into the latter category; but one could not know for sure without knowing the persons who organized the event and their intentions.

 

[L_Marshall]

The “joint” prayers were all non-Orthodox prayers and the songs with music were non-Orthodox. Other than the Orthodox Priest giving the homily, there wasn’t anything particularly Orthodox about the joint prayer service. The songs were split up so have the room sang a paragraph & then the other half sang a paragraph, in similar fashion as the Row, Row, Row, Your Boat Gently Down the Stream.

I can’t be sure without hearing the prayers, but it sounds like you attended a Catholic Vespers service. We often pray this in the way you describe, which is informally called singing as a choir. Row, Row, Row Your Boat is sung as a round, not a choir, but I digress.
On occasion, these things are sanitized to the point where they don’t resemble an Orthodox or Catholic event (which is disappointing), but I can’t say without knowing the actual prayers.

We were encouraged to unite with Catholics to organize our laity to do: joint book studies and socio/political-type events together.

There was an encouragement given to Catholics to checkout our parish’s Orthodox Bookstore to learn more about Orthodoxy.

This is all very good. Our teachings are similar, and often agree with each other.

The narthex had a rug on the wall.

That’s called a tapestry. They’re common in some places.

There was no place to light a candle, no icons, no statues either, in fact no images at all.

This is unfortunate. Many Catholic churches have votive stands (to light candles), and many images. Unfortunately, some do not.

There was a stage with seats in the center of it facing…us, the audience? Similar to the set of a Talk Show.

This is (unfortunately) a common set-up for modern churches. I pray it will change. A more traditional Catholic sanctuary looks like this:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

There was a pillar on one side of the stage with a gold square, maybe it was a Catholic tabernacle?

This sounds like the tabernacle, sometimes they are square.

But maybe not because when the Catholic priest incensed the empty altar, he didn’t incense the pilar or gold box. But then, it was the only thing that might have been.

The tabernacle isn’t usually incensed at Vespers. I’m not quite sure why.

It boils down to, I only knew I was in a Church because of the sign and because one of the Catholic Priests at the beginning said “Welcome to our Church”.

It sounds like you were in a very modern style Catholic church. While our traditions are much richer than that, unfortunately such styles are built for the purpose of economy (which is reasonable), or out of poor taste (which is not reasonable).
I’d encourage you to look at a better-built Catholic church if you ever get the chance. Many are quite beautiful.

 

[5Loaves]

The songs were split up so have the room sang a paragraph & then the other half sang a paragraph, in similar fashion as the Row, Row, Row, Your Boat Gently Down the Stream.

You seem to be describing antiphonal singing, a quite ancient form of liturgical prayer both East and West in particular for psalmody. I was just at Holy Virgin Cathedral [ROCOR] for services for the Feast of St John the Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco and parts of the prayers were chanted antiphonally.

 

[5Loaves]

…The songs were split up so have the room sang a paragraph & then the other half sang a paragraph, in similar fashion as the Row, Row, Row, Your Boat Gently Down the Stream.

We were encouraged to unite with Catholics to organize our laity to do: joint book studies and socio/political-type events together.

There was an encouragement given to Catholics to checkout our parish’s Orthodox Bookstore to learn more about Orthodoxy.

Inside the Catholic Church was very different…

I’m glad I attended, but don’t think I would again.

Thoughts, Comments, Questions anyone?
5Loaves;10926804:

You seem to be describing antiphonal singing, a quite ancient form of liturgical prayer both East and West in particular for psalmody. I was just at Holy Virgin Cathedral [ROCOR] for services for the Feast of St John

the Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco and parts of the prayers were chanted antiphonally.

Thanks to the dog needing dinner, I got timed out.

*I’m glad you took part *and hope you will do so again when other joint services take place, or other joint opportunities you mention were encouraged. With the growing intolerance and violence we need to find the ways in which our Churches can work together. (Wasn’t the purpose of this service to pray for the two kidnapped Syrian bishops?)

I imagine both Catholic laity, and the Orthodox clergy would have been happy to explain the elements of the interior of the church which you found unfamiliar. Latin Catholics haven’t a clue usually when they come into an Orthodox Church, or Eastern Catholic Church and need our help with explaining. (Where is the Holy Water? Why are we standing the whole time and not kneeling? How come we can’t see what’s going on at the altar? etc. )

As we know Sts Peter and Paul were hardly best buds! Yet on this Feast we venerate the holy icon of the two of them locked in embrace.

I hope we will see more images from this morning of HH Francis, Bishop of Rome, and Metropolitan Ioannis Zizioulas, head of the Orthodox delegation representing the Patriarchate of Constantinople, praying together at the tomb of St. Peter following the liturgy for the Feast of Saints Peter and Paul.

 

[ConstantineTG]

A local Catholic Church last night held a joint prayer service Orthodox / Catholic for the Eve of today’s Sts. Peter & Paul. I was told that it would be Vespers - it wasn’t anything that even vaguely resembled Vespers. The local Roman Bishop & several Catholic Priests came. An Orthodox Priest gave the homily and I noticed 1 other Orthodox Priest in attendance.

The “joint” prayers were all non-Orthodox prayers and the songs with music were non-Orthodox. Other than the Orthodox Priest giving the homily, there wasn’t anything particularly Orthodox about the joint prayer service. The songs were split up so have the room sang a paragraph & then the other half sang a paragraph, in similar fashion as the Row, Row, Row, Your Boat Gently Down the Stream.

We were encouraged to unite with Catholics to organize our laity to do: joint book studies and socio/political-type events together.

There was an encouragement given to Catholics to checkout our parish’s Orthodox Bookstore to learn more about Orthodoxy.

Inside the Catholic Church was very different. The narthex had a rug on the wall. There was no place to light a candle, no icons, no statues either, in fact no images at all. There was a stage with seats in the center of it facing…us, the audience? Similar to the set of a Talk Show. There was a pillar on one side of the stage with a gold square, maybe it was a Catholic tabernacle? But maybe not because when the Catholic priest incensed the empty altar, he didn’t incense the pilar or gold box. But then, it was the only thing that might have been. It boils down to, I only knew I was in a Church because of the sign and because one of the Catholic Priests at the beginning said “Welcome to our Church”.

The people were very friendly afterward. Offering cookies, cake, water & punch. Some of the women were particularly fawning over me and my youngest, then it was revealed through our conversation that they’d thought I was one of the priest’s wife. Once I cleared it up that I wasn’t I was left alone as they went in search of the Presbytera.

I’m glad I attended, but don’t think I would again.

Thoughts, Comments, Questions anyone?

I’ve been to services where the Psalms were read alternating between the two sides of the Church. I don’t know about the tone you are talking about, are you familiar with the jurisdiction participating in this event? They may be using tones that may sound odd to you. I attended an ACROD parish a few weeks ago and the tones were really odd to me. But that is their tradition.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

(Wasn’t the purpose of this service to pray for the two kidnapped Syrian bishops?)

No, that wasn’t the purpose. Although the Orthodox Priest thanked the Catholics for praying for them. Since the Catholics did not pray for them publicly at this “Vespers”, I guess it was a presumption on his part that all Catholics present have been praying for them privately.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

are you familiar with the jurisdiction participating in this event?

It was the Roman jurisdiction of the Catholic Church that hosted it. The prayers, hymns & music were Catholic, not Orthodox at all.

The Orthodox Jurisdictions represented were Greek, Antiochian & OCA.

When the Orthodox Priest spoke briefly about his conversion from Protestant Christianity to Orthodox Christianity the Catholic Bishop visibly shook with laughter behind him, indicating he thinks Orthodoxy is a joke and Protestant.

 

[JMJ_coder]

When the Orthodox Priest spoke briefly about his conversion from Protestant Christianity to Orthodox Christianity the Catholic Bishop visibly shook with laughter behind him, indicating he thinks Orthodoxy is a joke and Protestant.

Don’t you think it is rather unfair and presumptuous of you to assume what the Bishop was thinking?

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

Don’t you think it is rather unfair and presumptuous of you to assume what the Bishop was thinking?

Is there another logical thing you think I missed that would have triggered him to visibly shake with laughter at that very moment considering it was in the middle of the Service when there was nothing funny at all going on in the “audience” area or on the “stage” area?

 

[JMJ_coder]

Is there another logical thing you think I missed that would have triggered him to visibly shake with laughter at that very moment considering it was in the middle of the Service when there was nothing funny at all going on in the “audience” area or on the “stage” area?

It could have been a whole hosts of things. Going by what little description you provided, here is one alternate possibility - maybe the Bishop recognized a similar experience in his background to what the Priest was relating, a sort of ‘been there done that’ moment that prompted the laughter.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

It could have been a whole hosts of things. Going by what little description you provided, here is one alternate possibility - maybe the Bishop recognized a similar experience in his background to what the Priest was relating, a sort of ‘been there done that’ moment that prompted the laughter.

That’s not logical as the Catholic Bishop is a cradle Catholic, not a convert or a revert.

 

[L_Marshall]

That’s not logical as the Catholic Bishop is a cradle Catholic, not a convert or a revert.

Despite this, the bishop may have been reminded of the experiences of a friend or relative.

Even more: he could have suddenly remembered something completely different that made him laugh (it happens to all of us!)

 

[JMJ_coder]

That’s not logical as the Catholic Bishop is a cradle Catholic, not a convert or a revert.

That doesn’t mean he couldn’t have related to something. But, that is just one possibility.

The point is that you have imputed a very negative motive and interpretation to something that you really don’t have all the facts on. You have jumped to conclusions without warrant and that is an injustice.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

That doesn’t mean he couldn’t have related to something. But, that is just one possibility.

The point is that you have imputed a very negative motive and interpretation to something that you really don’t have all the facts on. You have jumped to conclusions without warrant and that is an injustice.

I was there. I witnessed what happened. I came to the only Reasonable conclusion considering the circumstances which I saw & heard.

You bring an accusation against me of Injustice. Yet you were not there and did not witness what I witnessed.

I’m judging based on what I witnessed, you are judging based on what you didn’t witness and are assuming that i’m not only wrong in my judgement, but also that I am injust.

The Catholic Bishop was looking directly at the Orthodox Priest when he said he used to be a Protestant and converted to Orthodoxy and at that precise moment the Catholic Bishop, with eyes still on the Orthodox Priest, busts out laughing.

If you choose to come to a different conclusion even though you weren’t there, that’s fine, but don’t accuse me of Injustice for coming to the only reasonable conclusion to something I witnessed that you didn’t.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

Even more: he could have suddenly remembered something completely different that made him laugh (it happens to all of us!)

IF that’s the case, and being there I doubt it very much, but if that’s the case it was very disrespectful for the Catholic Bishop to be sitting literally center stage, looking at the Orthodox Priest, but ignoring what was going on while thinking about something unrelated. Either way, it does show a complete lack of respect.

Again, I’m glad I went. I’m glad I witnessed the entire event. I will never participate in such an event ever again.

 

[EIF5A]

Is it possible it was an amicable laughter? Kind of like “rival” sports teams…?

I realize the subject at hand is much more serious than that, but I really don’t think (or at least hope) the Catholic bishop meant any real disrespect.

If he really meant to disrespect the priest, I suspect he may have rolled his eyes or something…

 

[JMJ_coder]

I was there. I witnessed what happened. I came to the only Reasonable conclusion considering the circumstances which I saw & heard.

You bring an accusation against me of Injustice. Yet you were not there and did not witness what I witnessed.

I’m judging based on what I witnessed, you are judging based on what you didn’t witness and are assuming that i’m not only wrong in my judgement, but also that I am injust.

The Catholic Bishop was looking directly at the Orthodox Priest when he said he used to be a Protestant and converted to Orthodoxy and at that precise moment the Catholic Bishop, with eyes still on the Orthodox Priest, busts out laughing.

If you choose to come to a different conclusion even though you weren’t there, that’s fine, but don’t accuse me of Injustice for coming to the only reasonable conclusion to something I witnessed that you didn’t.

You saw laughter and jumped to a conclusion. Did you ask the Bishop about it? Not from what you said here. Did you ask the Priest about it? Not from what you said here. Did you ask other ‘witnesses’ about it? Not from what you said here. You saw some laughter (which grows in enormity with each post - now it busting out laughter) during a liturgy and without any other information you drew a conclusion and assigned motive. Again, that is an injustice on your part.

 

[neokarny]

Not being there obviously I don’t have much thoughts, but I am rather mixed on this. I’m pretty liberal on other churches having sacramental grace and what-not, but Orthodox clergy participating in a liturgical service with any church we’re not in communion with makes me a bit uneasy.

Just curious, but how did the Orthodox clergy dress?