Orthodox / Catholic Joint Prayer Eve of the Feast of Sts. Peter & Paul

[JMJ_coder]

If the Bishop really has such disdain for the Orthodox, as you seem to claim by your accusation, why would he even bother to host and/or attend a joint prayer service with the Orthodox?

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

Is it possible it was an amicable laughter? Kind of like “rival” sports teams…?

I realize the subject at hand is much more serious than that, but I really don’t think (or at least hope) the Catholic bishop meant any real disrespect.

If he really meant to disrespect the priest, I suspect he may have rolled his eyes or something…

I’ve not experienced rival sports teams amicably laughing at each other.

About a minute into his laughing, he tried to cover it up. Covered his mouth & changed his facial expression to a somber one.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Not being there obviously I don’t have much thoughts, but I am rather mixed on this. I’m pretty liberal on other churches having sacramental grace and what-not, but Orthodox clergy participating in a liturgical service with any church we’re not in communion with makes me a bit uneasy.

Just curious, but how did the Orthodox clergy dress?

But, there is no sacrament during a Vespers liturgy. Remember also that Pope Benedict XVI and Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew celebrated Vespers together in 2008.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

Not being there obviously I don’t have much thoughts, but I am rather mixed on this. I’m pretty liberal on other churches having sacramental grace and what-not, but Orthodox clergy participating in a liturgical service with any church we’re not in communion with makes me a bit uneasy.

Just curious, but how did the Orthodox clergy dress?

Me too. I feel like I participated in something uncanonical. If it makes you feel any better, it was not a Communion Service. The prayers themselves were not any I’ve ever seen in an Orthodox Prayer book or heard at any Orthodox Church Service I’ve ever attended. As you can imagine, one of the prayers related Jeses as founded the Catholic Papacy on St. Peter.

The Greek Orthodox & Antiochian Orthodox Priest both wore their traditional black robes, no vestments. The priest who I believe was OCA wore the same except his was grey.

 

[neokarny]

But, there is no sacrament during a Vespers liturgy. Remember also that Pope Benedict XVI and Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew celebrated Vespers together in 2008.

True - it’s not a eucharistic liturgy, but it is a liturgy nonetheless. I’m also uneasy about HAH Bartholomew doing the same thing. Strangely a paradox of feelings I realize, especially given my Antiochian affiliation and otherwise moderately liberal perspective on the OO, RC, EC, etc.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

But, there is no sacrament during a Vespers liturgy. Remember also that Pope Benedict XVI and Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew celebrated Vespers together in 2008.

Right on both counts.

 

[L_Marshall]

Again, I’m glad I went. I’m glad I witnessed the entire event. I will never participate in such an event ever again.

Firstly, I understand your frustration. After that though, I must insist that you step back and reflect. While initially your questions seemed to be focused on the happenings of the event, you have become extremely negative, and uncharitable.

I would encourage you not to make an assumption about an entire group of people because of the actions of one (especially when you don’t know what the person was thinking for certain).

Do everyday people slip up and occasionally act less reverently than they ought to while in a church? Certainly.
Do clergymen slip up and occasionally act less reverently than they ought to while in a church? Certainly.

I apologize you had a negative experience in this church, but to form your entire idea of a group of people, and an individual person on this one experience is foolish.

For instance:
If you go to a restaurant and the food is subpar, would you never go again under any circumstances? Perhaps the cook is having an off day, or the supplies are running low.
Maybe if you went again you would discover that the food is excellent, but since you judged the restaurant and did not think of your own error in judgement, you’re stuck eating your mystery-meat burger at the local McDonalds.

 

[JMJ_coder]

True - it’s not a eucharistic liturgy, but it is a liturgy nonetheless. I’m also uneasy about HAH Bartholomew doing the same thing. Strangely a paradox of feelings I realize, especially given my Antiochian affiliation and otherwise moderately liberal perspective on the OO, RC, EC, etc.

What does HAH stand for?

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

True - it’s not a eucharistic liturgy, but it is a liturgy nonetheless. I’m also uneasy about HAH Bartholomew doing the same thing.

Right. Many Orthodox are also uneasy about it also. I wanted to attend this to support our priest and to see for myself. I am glad I went, but I don’t feel good about it and won’t do it again.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

What does HAH stand for?

His All Holiness

 

[JMJ_coder]

His All Holiness

I see. Does this title apply to any Orthodox Patriarch or just the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople?

 

[neokarny]

Me too. I feel like I participated in something uncanonical. If it makes you feel any better, it was not a Communion Service. The prayers themselves were not any I’ve ever seen in an Orthodox Prayer book or heard at any Orthodox Church Service I’ve ever attended. As you can imagine, one of the prayers related Jeses as founded the Catholic Papacy on St. Peter.

The Greek Orthodox & Antiochian Orthodox Priest both wore their traditional black robes, no vestments. The priest who I believe was OCA wore the same except his was grey.

You didn’t disobey the perogatives of your priest/bishop in attending so I wouldn’t worry. Likewise, I’d likely have went as well so long as it didn’t go against my priest’s or bishop’s directives. My uneasiness is possibly just an over-reaction on my part, IDK.

Anyway, in my opinion, just because the prayers aren’t explicitly found in Orthodoxy doesn’t necessarily mean they’re all bad - other than the example you gave. Look at the Litany of the Holy Name of Jesus for example, it’s an amazing prayer that’s fully Orthodox in content even if post-schism in origin.

 

[neokarny]

I see. Does this title apply to any Orthodox Patriarch or just the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople?

Just the Ecumenical Patriarch. The other primates have their own titles that are usually either “His Holiness” or “His Beatitude.” My patriarch is His Beatitude Patriarch John X. “HB,” or “HH” for short.

 

[teresa_lamb]

I was suppose to attend this service Friday night…however, my 94 yr old grandmother passed away and I wasn’t up to it.

My understanding was that it was suppose to be a Vigil service with a coming together with the Greek Orthodox to pray for the Orthodox priests that were kidnapped in Syria…did this happen?

Was this held at St. Anthony’s Parish in Sacramento?

If so, I can ask my priest who is from Holy Wisdom Eastern Catholic Parish and see what his feelings were on it; )

Teresa

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

Firstly, I understand your frustration. After that though, I must insist that you step back and reflect. While initially your questions seemed to be focused on the happenings of the event, you have become extremely negative, and uncharitable.

I would encourage you not to make an assumption about an entire group of people because of the actions of one (especially when you don’t know what the person was thinking for certain).

Do everyday people slip up and occasionally act less reverently than they ought to while in a church? Certainly.
Do clergymen slip up and occasionally act less reverently than they ought to while in a church? Certainly.

I apologize you had a negative experience in this church, but to form your entire idea of a group of people, and an individual person on this one experience is foolish.

For instance:
If you go to a restaurant and the food is subpar, would you never go again under any circumstances? Perhaps the cook is having an off day, or the supplies are running low.
Maybe if you went again you would discover that the food is excellent, but since you judged the restaurant and did not think of your own error in judgement, you’re stuck eating your mystery-meat burger at the local McDonalds.

I’m had an “okay” experience. I will not go again, because I’ve already done it. I have no need to go outside of my Faith Tradition to be fulfilled spiritually. I also don’t want to expose my daughter to this again, not because it was bad, but because it’s not our Faith. Once is okay, but there is no reason to repeat the experience.

I don’t mean to come across negative. I’m simply trying to relate what I saw & experienced. In doing that to the best of my ability, I’ve been accused of Injustice so of course it’s natural for me to defend myself. I see that defending myself against the accusation it makes it seem like that was a primary focus of the experience, but it wasn’t at all.

I was expecting Vespers, but it wasn’t Vespers as I know it. I was expecting a Church, but it wasn’t a Church as I know it. It was very, very, very different. Different doesn’t mean bad. Different means not the same.

As I’ve said before, the people were nice and hospitable with their drinks and pastries.

I’m glad I went, but won’t go again.

 

[JMJ_coder]

As you can imagine, one of the prayers related Jeses as founded the Catholic Papacy on St. Peter.

Assuming it was for the Solemnity of Sts. Peter and Paul, it was probably either Antiphon 2 from Evening Prayer 1 - You are Peter, and on this rock I will build by Church - or Antiphon 3 from Evening Prayer 2 - You are shepherd of the flock, the prince of the apostles; to you were entrusted the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

 

[neokarny]

Assuming it was for the Solemnity of Sts. Peter and Paul, it was probably either Antiphon 2 from Evening Prayer 1 - You are Peter, and on this rock I will build by Church - or Antiphon 3 from Evening Prayer 2 - You are shepherd of the flock, the prince of the apostles; to you were entrusted the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

Then these could both be understood in an EO manner. The problem being the joint prayer aspect, with both EO and RC understanding them very differently.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

I was suppose to attend this service Friday night…however, my 94 yr old grandmother passed away and I wasn’t up to it.

My understanding was that it was suppose to be a Vigil service with a coming together with the Greek Orthodox to pray for the Orthodox priests that were kidnapped in Syria…did this happen?

Was this held at St. Anthony’s Parish in Sacramento?

If so, I can ask my priest who is from Holy Wisdom Eastern Catholic Parish and see what his feelings were on it; )

Teresa

Teresa, I’m so sorry to hear about the loss of your grandmother. May her memory be eternal!

Yes, it was at St. Anthony’s. I was told the purpose of the event was the Feast of Sts. Peter & Paul. Fr. Timothy Robinson did thank the Catholics for praying for the kidnapped yet I had no way of knowing that was a purpose for the event. Perhaps that is how it was advertised to the Catholics?

I wonder if your priest is who I thought might be OCA. I didn’t recognize him. Is he a very tall man who may have wore a grey colored robe?

 

[SAVINGRACE]

IF that’s the case, and being there I doubt it very much, but if that’s the case it was very disrespectful for the Catholic Bishop to be sitting literally center stage, looking at the Orthodox Priest, but ignoring what was going on while thinking about something unrelated. Either way, it does show a complete lack of respect.

Again, I’m glad I went. I’m glad I witnessed the entire event. I will never participate in such an event ever again.

The incident below was shot in one of the holiest shrines in Christianity, the Church of the Nativity where Our Lord was born.

Are we supposed to judge Orthodoxy based on that single incident? Of course not. We look at the bigger picture. Try to focus on the positives from your experience. Peace be upon you.

youtube.com/watch?v=Jn90BNz729k

 

[neokarny]

The incident below was shot in one of the holiest shrines in Christianity, the Church of the Nativity where Our Lord was born.

Are we supposed to judge Orthodoxy based on that single incident? Of course not. We look at the bigger picture. Try to focus on the positives from your experience. Peace be upon you.

youtube.com/watch?v=Jn90BNz729k

I agree with what you’re trying to say, but bringing up that incident (or any scandal or controversy, for that matter) probably is not the best way to do it without making people defensive.