Orthodox & Catholic - Need Advice

[jg8ok]

I have a question. I converted to Orthodox awhile ago, and was baptized in the Orthodox Church. I am now considering converting to Catholic, since my girlfriend and her family are all Catholic. If we were to get married, I know our wedding would be at the Catholic Church. From everything I have read, both the Orthodox and Catholics consider themselves the one original, True Church. How does anyone really know for sure? What advice would you give to someone who is thinking of converting from Orthodox to Catholic? It seems the more I research Christian history, the more difficult it becomes to determine which was the original and which one split from the original Church. Does it really matter whether someone is Orthodox or Catholic - aren’t we all Christians?

 

[vsedriver]

It seems the more I research Christian history, the more difficult it becomes to determine which was the original and which one split from the original Church. Does it really matter whether someone is Orthodox or Catholic - aren’t we all Christians?

For me the answer is simple. Jesus founded One Church and that is the church I want to belong to. I follow the Holy Scripture. Jesus is a king. He left his kingdom on earth to be shepherded by a chief steward. Jesus’ chief steward was Peter and his successors. Only the chief steward carried the keys of the kingdom while the king was away. Only Peter was given the keys to the kingdom. Where Peter is there is Jesus’ Church.

 

[akasseb]

I have a question. I converted to Orthodox awhile ago, and was baptized in the Orthodox Church. I am now considering converting to Catholic, since my girlfriend and her family are all Catholic. If we were to get married, I know our wedding would be at the Catholic Church. From everything I have read, both the Orthodox and Catholics consider themselves the one original, True Church. How does anyone really know for sure? What advice would you give to someone who is thinking of converting from Orthodox to Catholic? It seems the more I research Christian history, the more difficult it becomes to determine which was the original and which one split from the original Church. Does it really matter whether someone is Orthodox or Catholic - aren’t we all Christians?

Various theological issues aside (such as the filioque), the issue of papal primacy is the heart of the matter (with language and culture providing the wedge). One often hears that the Catholics and the Orthodox are in schism with each other. But this isn’t so. The Orthodox are in schism from the Catholic Church. The Code of Canon Law (Can. 751) defines schism as “the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

If one studies ecclesiology, one learns that all non-Catholic Christians participate in the Truth of the Catholic Church in varying and imperfect ways, and always with an admixture of error. This is no less the case with the Eastern Orthodox, who participate in much of the Truth. For example, because they have apostolic succession they have valid sacraments. But huge areas of the East have fallen into heresy, with some lasting for centuries (Rome has never fallen into heresy). The East also has the problem of Caesaropapism. We also see that the Orthodox faith is partitioned by political boundaries (Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc). Christ founded a universal Church, not a Church fragmented by language and borders.

If one reads the Church Fathers from both East and West, it is clear that the Bishop of Rome had pride of place. When examining the history of the schism, one cannot help but be saddened. This is especially true when one considers that the East went into schism right as the Catholic Church was entering its most glorious age. There are other motives of credibility as well, such as the fact that science developed in the West.

 

[truthsave]

…the more I research Christian history, the more difficult it becomes to determine which was the original and which one split from the original Church. Does it really matter whether someone is Orthodox or Catholic - aren’t we all Christians?

You are posing a question that you know it is not easy to answer in a way that is uncontestable for both Roman catholic and Orthodox.
Both sides will give you very acceptable answers from their point of view. Both documented and more or less solidly supported.
It is clear that a person that has chosen to be Orthodox is willing to accept the Orthodox explication and a Roman Catholic the Roman Catholic explication.
Trying to be neutral I would say that both belonged to the One original Church. Then it is up to you considering who do you think departed more markedly from the original message.
The responsability of choosing is yours. But no doubt both are Christians!

 

[PiousTemplar]

You are posing a question that you know it is not easy to answer in a way that is uncontestable for both Roman catholic and Orthodox.
Both sides will give you very acceptable answers from their point of view. Both documented and more or less solidly supported.
It is clear that a person that has chosen to be Orthodox is willing to accept the Orthodox explication and a Roman Catholic the Roman Catholic explication.
Trying to be neutral I would say that both belonged to the One original Church. Then it is up to you considering who do you think departed more markedly from the original message.
The responsability of choosing is yours. But no doubt both are Christians!

What a wonderful way of saying it!

 

[Julia_Mae]

Trying to be neutral I would say that both belonged to the One original Church.

That’s my take on it. Except, neither is the “one original” church because in the intervening years many changes have been wrought, but both retain the deposit of faith, both have true Sacraments. Even if two brothers are estranged, they still come from the same Father.

 

[akasseb]

It is clear that a person that has chosen to be Orthodox is willing to accept the Orthodox explication and a Roman Catholic the Roman Catholic explication.

It is the Catholic Church and not the Roman Catholic Church.

And this answer really doesn’t get us anywhere or say anything substantial. Of course, someone who is Orthodox is going to think the Orthodox faith has the truth, and a Catholic is going to think the Catholic Church has the truth. But this principle can be applied to anything: Christian/Muslim, Catholic/Protestant, Liberal/Conservative, Republican/Democrat. The Truth transcends whatever individual truths one holds at any given time.

The Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church can’t both be right in toto or when they hold opposing positions. Either the Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth or he is not. Either the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son or it doesn’t.

Christ founded a single Church. The Orthodox participate in this Truth imperfectly and with an admixture of error. And, as mentioned above, to which Orthodox body should one belong?

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Orthodox and Catholics have saints in heaven. The Orthodox and Catholics have Jesus on their altars in the Eucharist. Is there an Orthodox heaven that is separate from the Catholic heaven? Is there an Orthodox Jesus other than the Catholic Jesus?

What separates us are petty human arguments. We are the one true Church, together.

Now, should you be Catholic? That is for you to decide. But my advice is, don’t be Catholic just because of your fiancee. Be in the faith that you believe in. There are distinct expressions of faith in both Churches, you may not be happy with the RC expression of the faith. Do what brings you closer to God.

 

[fhansen]

I have a question. I converted to Orthodox awhile ago, and was baptized in the Orthodox Church. I am now considering converting to Catholic, since my girlfriend and her family are all Catholic. If we were to get married, I know our wedding would be at the Catholic Church. From everything I have read, both the Orthodox and Catholics consider themselves the one original, True Church. How does anyone really know for sure? What advice would you give to someone who is thinking of converting from Orthodox to Catholic? It seems the more I research Christian history, the more difficult it becomes to determine which was the original and which one split from the original Church. Does it really matter whether someone is Orthodox or Catholic - aren’t we all Christians?

They’re both the one true Church. But authority will remain a point of contention-for now at least.

 

[truthsave]

It is the Catholic Church and not the Roman Catholic Church.

I use the distinsion not to lower the Roman Catholic Church and forgive me if you have felt it this way, but to distinguish since The Orthodox Church is officially called The Orthodox Catholic Church.

akasseb:

And this answer really doesn’t get us anywhere or say anything substantial. Of course, someone who is Orthodox is going to think the Orthodox faith has the truth, and a Catholic is going to think the Catholic Church has the truth. But this principle can be applied to anything: Christian/Muslim, Catholic/Protestant, Liberal/Conservative, Republican/Democrat. The Truth transcends whatever individual truths one holds at any given time.

Yes, you are right but I don’t held any position not I feel I held one to say the absolute truth also for who see things differently then myself in this specific matter.

akasseb:

The Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church can’t both be right in toto or when they hold opposing positions. Either the Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth or he is not. Either the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son or it doesn’t.

This matter became a divisionist doctrine, and even though one of the two must be right I don’t think being right in one or more subject preclude one to be the true Church and the other the wrong Church, but I know for somebody is this way; I just say my opinion here.

akasseb:

Christ founded a single Church. The Orthodox participate in this Truth imperfectly and with an admixture of error. And, as mentioned above, to which Orthodox body should one belong?

You know the Orthodox say perfectly the same thing. Both have arguments that are percived as incontestable from an Orthodox Catholic point of view and from a Roman Catholic point of view.

 

[Marybeloved]

I use the distinsion not to lower the Roman Catholic Church and forgive me if you have felt it this way, but to distinguish since The Orthodox Church is officially called The Orthodox Catholic Church.

You know the Orthodox say perfectly the same thing. Both have arguments that are percived as incontestable from an Orthodox Catholic point of view and from a Roman Catholic point of view.

Hello Truthsave,

Please just say “The Catholic Church”- That is the official name of the Catholic Church, and everyone knows who you’re talking about when you say “the Catholic Church”- So there’s no danger of confusion there. I know you say that you mean no insult, and I believe you- But you don’t plant a title that is improper and even offensive on others so that you can properly distinguish your own preferred title for your own communion. We have other churches and 22 other rites within the Catholic Church that are not the Roman Church or the Latin rite. So please just use the proper name for the whole Church that is both correct, official and preferred.

I agree with most of your other comments on the state of affairs between our churches.

Peace.

 

[truthsave]

Hello Truthsave,

Please just say “The Catholic Church”- That is the official name of the Catholic Church, and everyone knows who you’re talking about when you say “the Catholic Church”- So there’s no danger of confusion there. I know you say that you mean no insult, and I believe you- But you don’t plant a title that is improper and even offensive on others so that you can properly distinguish your own preferred title for your own communion. We have other churches and 22 other rites within the Catholic Church that are not the Roman Church or the Latin rite. So please just use the proper name for the whole Church that is both correct, official and preferred.

I agree with most of your other comments on the state of affairs between our churches.

Peace.

If my saying could ever been perceived as offensive to some of you I am sorry. OK then for the some that could ever take it as an offence I will refer from now on as Catholic Church. Thank you for pointing it out. It is never nice been offensive and even less when you don’t even intended to be.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I have a question. I converted to Orthodox awhile ago, and was baptized in the Orthodox Church. I am now considering converting to Catholic, since my girlfriend and her family are all Catholic. If we were to get married, I know our wedding would be at the Catholic Church. From everything I have read, both the Orthodox and Catholics consider themselves the one original, True Church. How does anyone really know for sure? What advice would you give to someone who is thinking of converting from Orthodox to Catholic? It seems the more I research Christian history, the more difficult it becomes to determine which was the original and which one split from the original Church. Does it really matter whether someone is Orthodox or Catholic - aren’t we all Christians?

Perhaps consider reading testimonials from converts into the Catholic Church.
You can hear lots of audio interviews of converts at the archives of The Journey Home (type “Journey Home” in the second (name removed by moderator)ut field on this page) or from The Catholic Forum.

Or the popular book series on conversion stories Surprised By Truth. If I understand correctly, Jimmy Akin’s testimony is in that book and he had it narrowed down to Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

Also, as much as I encourage anyone to enter the Catholic Church, please be sure not to convert “for a girl.” I know you didn’t say that but just in case… Do have a conviction if you are to convert. It is a superior foundation for entering the faith.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

There is a LOT of basic misunderstandings here. Roman and Orthodox Churches were the One Church flounded by Our Lord; each has the same 7 Sacraments of Christ. As Blessed John Paul II The Great said famously, Orthodox and Roman are the 2 Lungs of The Church. 22 Eastern Orthodox (“Byzantine”) Sects are in Full Union with the Vatican and us. The “Orthodox” Churches of Constantinople and Moscow are Close to Similar Full Communion with the Vatican. The Orthodox Church signed a formal Declaration that they recognize the Pope as the ‘First Bishop’ of Bishops. Some details need to be worked out. Roman and Byzantine and Orthodox are The different Historic Developments of The One Church Founded by Our Lord. We number 1.3 Billion of the 2 Billion Christians in the world. We are Not different Churches, except in details and lines of authority, very Parralel Similar Liturgies.
:byzsoc::signofcross: It is technically incorrect to say one 'converts' from one to the other; We only need to learn the different Liturgies, focii of each. We follow the Liturgies of the Service we attend: Orthodox have Consecrated Bread and Wine dropped in the Mouth, we have the Eucharistic Host.

 

[Khalid]

The Catholic Church is the correct one. I also am an Orthodox - I’ve not managed to get confirmed Catholic yet, but consider myself Catholic, defend the Catholic position, go to Catholic mass (rarely, as I have no money and no car, and no close-by church, and no bus on Sundays, and no church on the bus line; excuses, excuses - don’t be like me and make excuses, go get confirmed in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church), so on and so forth (no, I don’t take communion).

I can argue this all day, but as a “probabilistic” (instead of a philosophical/absolute approach):

1. 
   *]All of the ancient heresies came from the East (Arianism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Docetism, Pelagianism, etc.), and were often supported by the Patriarchs (so, probabilistically, where is new heresy or schism more likely to be? West or East?).
   
   *]The Eastern church is anti-theological and anti-intellectual, and demonizes St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas. Look at how many books of theology or philosophy have been published by the Orthodox Church in the last 500 years - less than the single council of Trent published, and less than have been published in five years by Catholics and one year by Protestants.
   
   *]Biblical studies is non-existent in Orthodoxy.
   
   *]Orthodox positions on divorce and contraception are demonstrably sinful, as they are in contravention of the philosophically-provable natural moral law, as the contravene the final cause of instantiated humanity.
   
   *]There is no leadership in the Orthodox Church; most of the Orthodox “demoninations” (that’s too good a typo to let go: I meant to write “denominations”) are not in communion with each other (i.e. Ethiopian and Eritrean and Assyrian are in communion with each other, but not with anyone else, Greek is not in communion with Macedonian, Coptic is not in communion with anyone, etc. *). The
   
   *]The Orthodox Church has been influenced and contaminated into an anti-intellectual, anti-theological, anti-philosophical, anti-Western stance by centuries of domination by Mohammedans (to this day, the Ecumenical Patriarch must be a citizen of Turkey and confirmed by the Turkish government): the Orthodox imbibed some Mohammedan attitudes and principles by osmosis, and others (like rabid Jew-hatred) for self-protection (as, if the Mohammedans were pointed at the Jews, they’d be less likely to actively persecute Christians as badly), and today have an ingrained dhimmi (Mohammedan-conquered and subjugated) mentality (see “The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam, 7th through 20th Centuries” by Bat Ye’or), which is almost like a Stockholm Syndrome over vast periods of time.
   
   *]The Eastern method of prayer is a form of self-hypnosis, seemingly open to attacks by the enemy in anyone with less than perfect discernment of spirits. As evidence of this Adversarial influence:
   
   *]The Orthodox have the “essence-energies” distinction, between what God “is” and his so-called “uncreated energies” (they call it the “Tabor light”), which introduces a division into the unity of the Most Holy Trinity and is suggestive of polytheism, based on justifying the experiences of some mystics practicing the Orthodox prayer of self-hypnosis, called “hesychasm” (which has been thoroughly influenced by the Islamic prayers “salaat” and “dhikr”, but not without influencing them in return) as Godly and not Adversarial.
   
   A Church that disapproves of learning can not be correct, as it is the light of reason which illumines faith, and vice verse: only falsehood need hide in the shadows. A church that introduces distinctions in the Godhead can not be correct. A church that allows divorce and contraception can not be correct, for God has instilled in us rationality to investigate the world and draw conclusions therefrom; and our philosophy tells us that certain acts are inherently mortally sinful, as they distort or destroy the final cause (teleology, purpose, or goal-directedness) of our being.
   
   So on and so forth. With more time and a little more effort (it is 2 AM) it can be proven that the Catholic Church (not the “Orthodox Catholic Church” as they style themselves, often called “Eastern Orthodox”) is true; I give you merely evidence, not conclusive argumentation, here.
   
   However, the Orthodox Church does have valid Holy Orders, which means the sacraments administered are valid - they do have the Real Presence, and real priests, and real baptism, so on - but schismatic. I believe an Orthodox could be saved if he truly believed his church was the original, and never came across any evidence otherwise and wasn’t a deep thinker and never questioned it, but I don’t think an Orthodox can be saved if they know that the Catholic Church is the true church - as far as I know, that’s one of the only exceptions to “extra ecclesiam nulla salus”, is if a person in a Church truly doesn’t know that the Catholic Church is the original, and had no way of knowing, what is called “invincible ignorance”.*

 

[truthsave]

I respect all your point Khalid, but since I have became Orthodox it means I have more affinity with the Orthodox approach.
There are some people, since we can be very different, that need to point out who is the wrong and who is the right. It is true that is a common attitude.
even the Apostols had this very human and respectful attitude. They were not happy with others. There was a passage in Luke that for me is explicit on the relantion between Catholic and Orthodox, even at the beginning there was something like that, since it is a human attitude:

An argument [a]started among them as to which of them might be the greatest. Luke 9:46

“Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us."But Jesus said to him, “Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is [a]for you.” Luke ):49-50

The anthi- theological and anti-intellectual attitude as you call it:
I have, sometimes an intellectual attitude, and pseudo-philosophical, and I can tell you that whenever I have this attitude I loose so much time in not been a Christian but in affirming my on way of thinking and sometimes it happens I am almost satisfied with myself, and a little pride. These feelings can make enemies, self prideness and can led to :

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and [a]cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. Mattew 23:23

Everytime I was deeply putting myself in my ex-beloved ( unfortunately not enough ex yet)passion for theological and philosofical gymnastic, I was loosing the heart of Christianity in favour of my personal human weakness and attitude.

I was perfectly finding myself in : **“You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! **” Mattew 23:24

Yes loosing time in straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
I was a camel swallower!
I realized that what our Saviour said was applying perfectly to me even though I was not officially a Pharesee. I was declaring myself Christian but could easily, very easily becoming a Pharesee. I realized being a Pharisee it is much more an human inclination then becoming a Christian. Of course my being a Pharisee was in Jesus name. And doing it on His name was blinding me and not letting me relize that if I had to do something in His name was following His teachings. At least trying to. And my intellectualization surely was taking a lot of energy out from me and protecting me from the realization of my own weakness and fault and responsability and fear of not wanting to “really” loosing my life in His name.

St. Therese of Lisieux was an example of this semplicity of toughts.

It is also my personal opinion that it is better, at least for me for sure, using theology and philosophy as an help to my very small faith. But I recognize it.

I think as Christians we should try, to become saints. There is only one pity in life: not becoming a saint. (I have red it somewhere and I think it is very true)
Whatever helps us to becoming a saint it can be considered good. For myself my intellectuality is one very big obstacle, since he protect myself from loosing myself in Christ. But I am a man. And even though I would like to loose myself in Christ I can just say I slightly diluite myself in Him. At least something!

As far as the other points we could talk a lot about it.

I think if we try to give a fault to one or the other we can easily find a really good reasoning from both side.