Orthodox catholics

[Nine_Two]

Oh I’ve got Netflix… I’m gonna watch that tonight!

Canadian Netflix, I’m afraid. I don’t remember seeing it on American Netflix.

 

[Nine_Two]

Right. I’m an enemy invading your fortress so as to attack you. Nine two, I just don’t share your convictions. You believe I’m there to harm you and I’m some sort of spy. I believe I’m in real need of a sacrament, I’m out of options and I can get it there.

I didn’t ask about the attack, I asked about the deception involved in the scene.

Because if you approach Communion like a Latin, the priest is going to think you’re coming up for a blessing. You’re going to have to try to blend in, just like they did in the movie.

So is that, or is that not, deception?

 

[Marybeloved]

I didn’t ask about the attack, I asked about the deception involved in the scene.

Because if you approach Communion like a Latin, the priest is going to think you’re coming up for a blessing. You’re going to have to try to blend in, just like they did in the movie.

So is that, or is that not, deception?

The hypothetical situation was if it were possible to do it anonymously without such pretence. It was already said at the beginning that this is not the case in the orthodox church and then it became if it were, then I would. The situation imagined was like in a Catholic church where no such “checks” exist at communion. So no. No deception since no disguise is involved. Besides the Vatican seems to forbid it to Catholics anyway even in necessity as seen above, so the hypothesis would not be sustained. At this point then, the conversation becomes pointless.

 

[Nine_Two]

The hypothetical situation was if it were possible to do it anonymously without such pretence. It was already said at the beginning that this is not the case in the orthodox church and then it became if it were, then I would. The situation imagined was like in a Catholic church where no such “checks” exist at communion. So no. No deception since no disguise is involved. Besides the Vatican seems to forbid it to Catholics anyway even in necessity as seen above, so the hypothesis would not be sustained. At this point then, the conversation becomes pointless.

So you’re going up for a blessing, ok, then there is no problem because you’ll never get Communion like that. I just assumed that you were talking about blending in so you actually had a shot of meeting your goal.

Nonetheless, it still shows a lack of respect for us. Glad to hear you’re willing to show us some respect when the Vatican commands it though.

 

[TEPO]

Canadian Netflix, I’m afraid. I don’t remember seeing it on American Netflix.

Oh, you just think you have everything that I want but can’t have. .

 

[Marybeloved]

So you’re going up for a blessing, ok, then there is no problem because you’ll never get Communion like that. I just assumed that you were talking about blending in so you actually had a shot of meeting your goal.

Nonetheless, it still shows a lack of respect for us. Glad to hear you’re willing to show us some respect when the Vatican commands it though.

It was never about showing you anything since you just wouldn’t be involved you made it a matter of damnation which don’t agree with. The point of the anonymity was that there would be no scandal to Orthodox. The point of the Vatican is not about desecration of the Eucharist but about obedience. This was all predicated on a purely hypothetical premise where no Orthodox would be scandalized. Since I don’t feel the same way if it were a Protestant as I said earlier, I just don’t see it as a matter of respect but a question of whether the person was prepared to receive Christ or not.

 

[Marybeloved]

So you’re going up for a blessing, ok, then there is no problem because you’ll never get Communion like that. I just assumed that you were talking about blending in so you actually had a shot of meeting your goal.

Nonetheless, it still shows a lack of respect for us. Glad to hear you’re willing to show us some respect when the Vatican commands it though.

It was never about showing you anything since you just wouldn’t be involved you made it a matter of damnation which don’t agree with. The point of the anonymity was that there would be no scandal to Orthodox. The point of the Vatican is not about desecration of the Eucharist but about obedience. This was all predicated on a purely hypothetical premise where no Orthodox would be scandalized. Since I don’t feel the same way if it were a Protestant as I said earlier, I just don’t see it as a matter of respect but a question of whether the person was prepared to receive Christ or not.

 

[dzheremi]

Didn’t we already have this argument when a different Catholic poster brought up the same “what if I just didn’t tell anybody and went up anyway” idea? The answer was no then, the answer is no now, the answer will always be no. You’re only deceiving yourself if you entertain any other idea.

It would probably be shocking to a Latin Catholic, but Orthodox priests can and do refuse to give communion on occasion, if they have some reason to do so. We’re talking about Orthodox communicants here. If the priest doesn’t know who you are/can’t verify that you are a baptized Orthodox Christian (who has been to confession, as necessary), you will not be receiving communion. Period.

 

[Nine_Two]

It was never about showing you anything since you just wouldn’t be involved you made it a matter of damnation which don’t agree with. The point of the anonymity was that there would be no scandal to Orthodox. The point of the Vatican is not about desecration of the Eucharist but about obedience. This was all predicated on a purely hypothetical premise where no Orthodox would be scandalized. Since I don’t feel the same way if it were a Protestant as I said earlier, I just don’t see it as a matter of respect but a question of whether the person was prepared to receive Christ or not.

I answered the point about not causing scandal to Orthodox. You never answered it (I invite you to go back and look through what I posted if you don’t remember it). Just because no one is aware of it to get offended by it, doesn’t make it alright.

Once again it is about respect, something you clearly don’t have for us.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I also think that if I had no other choice and they did not ask about my church or specifically state that no Orthodox should come up for reception, I would take communion or penance, if it was possible to do it anonymously.

I don’t think that’s a good position to take. We still have to respect their rules, and their default rule is not to commune non-Orthodox. If you get explicit permission, I guess that’s another matter, but silence is not consent.

Honesty and charity demand that we presume only what is reasonable to presume. The default standard in Orthodox churches is that we may not receive the Holy Eucharist there. To assume otherwise would be a lie.

To withhold Communion from from a worthy Catholic is not good. …And Catholics are worthy.

Orthodox churches are perfectly entitled to refuse Communion to anyone as they see fit.

We Catholics can often be kind of spoiled brats about this. Most of us are so used to our little western Christian world, full of just Latin Catholics and Protestants, and in that context, there’s pretty much no one who would deny us Communion. We need to suck it up and accept that, when we look East, there are churches who deny us Communion.

Perhaps the experience of accepting this will help us develop more empathy; now we’ll know what Protestants sometimes feel like when they hear they can’t receive our Holy Communion.

Plus no one can presume to tell me what the Lord would do on the last day when there’s no sin involved that I can see. I certainly don’t worry over what bothers people who are not Jesus Christ unless it will cause scandal or ruin the peace of souls who may be aware of what’s happening and have been taught to believe it was wrong.

It’s basic logic and ethics, Marybeloved. Presuming something is okay is sometimes alright, and sometimes not so.

For instance, say you’re a college student, and you need a few bucks to go get a soda or something. You know your roommate keeps some spare cash in his desk. Is it a sin to borrow some to get a drink?

Well, if you know he wouldn’t mind, it’s not a sin.

If you know he would mind, then it is a sin.

See?

Even if no announcement is made or whatever, the basic default in Orthodox Christianity is not to give Holy Communion to non-Orthodox. To presume that they would be okay with you receiving just because they don’t check and see if you’re Orthodox is effectively a lie - you’d be lying to them, pretending to be Orthodox when you’re not.

It’s wrong, and we mustn’t do it. If we do such a thing, then we have no right to object if a Protestant sneakily receives Communion at a Catholic Mass.

Spiritually, we’re in communion. Only in a worldly sense we’re not, so your Eucharist is although slightly less legitimate, still better than no Eucharist at all… Which would only be helpful if we happened to find ourselves stranded in Eastern Europe somewhere on a Sunday -near an Orthodox Church!

We don’t have a right to their Sacraments if they don’t want to administer them to us. They’re entitled to withhold them as they see fit. And since they disagree that we’re spiritually in communion, this is a very serious matter for them. It’s the absolute height of disrespect to sneakily attempt to receive the Holy Eucharist of an Orthodox community.

If a baptized Protestant went to confession (presuming he could without revealing he wasn’t Catholic) and I knew about it, I wouldn’t be bothered by it and if I saw them afterward partake of communion, the only thing that may bother me is if they disbelieved the real presence, not because they were Protestant partaking of communion, especially since it’s an individual thing and not an official or public one.

Whether you or I am bothered by it is irrelevant; it is an official, public matter. It’s in canon law, Marybeloved.

A Protestant can receive the Holy Eucharist at a Catholic Mass only under very specific conditions and in conformity with the norms of the local bishop. There must be a grave reason for their doing so, they must be unable, either physically or morally, to approach a minister of their own denomination, they must manifest a Catholic faith in the Eucharist, etc.

If they don’t meet the conditions, they don’t get to receive Communion. How you or I feel is not a determining factor.

From what I’ve been told, through whom I perceive as being a reliable source, the Orthodox can in fact receive Communion in the Catholic Church.

But Protestants can’t (except in very limited conditions). If we can justly expect Protestants to respect our rules and not sneakily attempt to receive the Catholic Eucharist, then the Orthodox can justly expect us to respect their rules.

Plus I don’t see why I’m expected to believe that such a situation would kill my soul (I don’t) simply because many Orthodox believe so- Is that the outlook you would approve of in a fellow Catholic?

*Serious *violations of the commandment “thou shalt not lie” are mortal sins.

Silently presenting yourself for Communion at an Orthodox Liturgy constitutes a lie about a very serious matter. It’s inherently a lie because the Orthodox by default do not commune non-Orthodox. You know that if you identified yourself as a Catholic, they would not offer you Holy Communion. So pretending to be Orthodox is really a serious lie in this situation.

Well we already have permission. Our Church tells us to go for it, assuming that its not possible to receive in a Catholic parish.

You would also need permission from an Orthodox bishop.

Right. I’m an enemy invading your fortress so as to attack you. Nine two, I just don’t share your convictions. You believe I’m there to harm you and I’m some sort of spy. I believe I’m in real need of a sacrament, I’m out of options and I can get it there.

We’re not entitled to their Eucharist. Not at all. Nor are they entitled to ours. We choose to offer it to them - if their own bishops would permit it - but that in no way obligates them to do likewise. They didn’t ask for permission to receive the Eucharist at Catholic Masses.

If you can’t get to a Catholic Liturgy but can get to an Orthodox one, and this is a one-time thing, then doing without isn’t going to kill you. You can survive a week or two, or whatever.

If you can’t get to a Catholic Liturgy but can get to an Orthodox one for an extended period of time, then the proper thing to do is to lawfully, respectfully, and openly petition the local Orthodox bishop for permission to commune at an Orthodox parish. Who knows? You may get permission. But to do so sneakily when we know they would explicitly disapprove if they knew we weren’t Orthodox, is morally wrong.

First off your church says to respect the wishes of the other churches involved.

But even if it didn’t. The Catholic Church has no right to give you permission to do anything in our churches. It would be like if your neighbor gave me permission to eat your food. The world doesn’t work like that.

Exactly. I don’t know why this seems so hard for some of my fellow Catholics to understand.

 

[TEPO]

So what if I like to stir the pot a little… It’s not like I’m the one missing out on anything here. After all, I’m not a Protestant and my Church has the fullness of Truth -although I do sympathize more for the Protestants than I do for the Orthodox.

 

[Cavaradossi]

So what if I like to stir the pot a little… It’s not like I’m the one missing out on anything here. After all, I’m not a Protestant and my Church has the fullness of Truth -although I do sympathize more for the Protestants than I do for the Orthodox.

Then why would you want to have our Eucharist?

 

[TEPO]

Then why would you want to have our Eucharist?

I don’t actually want it, I just want the rights to it.

 

[TEPO]

Then why would you want to have our Eucharist?

I don’t think you really want me to get sentimental with you right now, do you?

 

[TEPO]

Obviously the Orthodox view Catholics as filthy. …and that sort of hurts my feelings… So I suppose I just want the rights to it, not that I actually want it at all.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I don’t think you really want me to get sentimental with you right now, do you?

I think it is a serious and legitimate question. If you don’t believe that we have the fullness of the truth, why would you ever want to partake of our Eucharist? Why would you want to enter into our Eucharistic communion, when you do not share our beliefs?

 

[TEPO]

I think it is a serious and legitimate question. If you don’t believe that we have the fullness of the truth, why would you ever want to partake of our Eucharist? Why would you want to enter into our Eucharistic communion, when you do not share our beliefs?

See post 95

 

[Cavaradossi]

Obviously the Orthodox view Catholics as filthy. …and that sort of hurts my feelings.

Not at all. It is just that we take Paul’s injunction to discern the Body of Christ very seriously. If we do not share the unity of faith, then how can we share the divine and mystic gifts without eating and drinking condemnation upon ourselves because of what would be a disunity which would rend the eucharistic community apart? Again, this is much more than mentality of ’ it’s just Jesus and me’ (the very question, ‘how could they rightfully keep me from the Eucharist’ is reflective of this mentality), it is about Jesus and His relation to the Eucharistic community—His Mystical Body—gathered in one place with one bishop and one Eucharist. If one does not share in the unity of the faith of the eucharistic community, he should not partake without some sort of dispensation of the bishop, who is head of that community.

 

[Cavaradossi]

See post 95

But see, I don’t think it comes from any sort of disdain. The Orthodox are naturally more conscious of the communal aspect of the Eucharist. I would not feel comfortable communing in a Catholic Church or Oriental Orthodox Church without first receiving the approval of my own bishop and then of the bishop who would be allowing me to commune, and I suspect that most of my fellow Orthodox posters would feel the same way. And if either denied me such permission, I would not feel dejected, but know only that either my bishop did not think that it would be beneficial for my salvation, or that the other bishop did not believe that it would be beneficial either for my salvation or for the salvation of his flock.

 

[TEPO]

Not at all. It is just that we take Paul’s injunction to discern the Body of Christ very seriously. If we do not share the unity of faith, then how can we share the divine and mystic gifts without eating and drinking condemnation upon ourselves because of what would be a disunity which would rend the eucharistic community apart? Again, this is much more than mentality of ’ it’s just Jesus and me’ (the very question, ‘how could they rightfully keep me from the Eucharist’ is reflective of this mentality), it is about Jesus and His relation to the Eucharistic community—His Mystical Body—gathered in one place with one bishop and one Eucharist. If one does not share in the unity of the faith of the eucharistic community, he should not partake without some sort of dispensation of the bishop, who is head of that community.

We take Peters injunction to discern the Body of Christ very seriously. I do believe Peter and Paul were together on this…? Sooo, why aren’t we?