Orthodox Christmas

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Why exactly is the Orthodox Christmas celebrated on the 7th of January? Is there some historical/religious/pious event that placed it on that date instead of the 25th of December? Now that I think of it does anyone know why the Latin Church chose the 25th of December? (other than the pagan influence)

I mean we both got our traditions from the apostles, did they have conflicting ideas too? Also, (one last question I swear!) Is Christmas supposed to be the actual date of Christ’s birth, or a set day of remberence?
 
It is because some Orthodox keep the old calendar, so they’re a couple weeks different.

December 25 is, as you know, a pagan holiday that was “baptized” by the early Christian church. Coming, as it does, near the darkest night of the year, the Nativity “turns the corner” toward brighter days, which is symbolically appropriate.

We’d also feel silly singing Jingle Bells in August.

I don’t think many people think December 25 is the actual anniversary of Christ’s birth.
 
Cruikshank_s said:
Why exactly is the Orthodox Christmas celebrated on the 7th of January? Is there some historical/religious/pious event that placed it on that date instead of the 25th of December? Now that I think of it does anyone know why the Latin Church chose the 25th of December? (other than the pagan influence)

I mean we both got our traditions from the apostles, did they have conflicting ideas too? Also, (one last question I swear!) Is Christmas supposed to be the actual date of Christ’s birth, or a set day of remberence?
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I have been under the old calendar for over 20 years. I switched from the jurisdiction of the Russian Orthodox Church outside Russia to the Antiochian Orthodox Church, and in so doing I am now under the new calendar. For me, after 20 years of celebrating Christmas on January 7 (which is December 25 on the Julian calendar - you see) it is actually very hard go to December 25! Under the old calendar the Nativity fast actually gets more strict on December 25, but now instead of fasting I eat meat. It really is hard to change this!
 
So we USED to celebrate on the same day and it’s just a calendar preference?? When did the change happen and how/why did the Eastern Orthodox keep the old calendar?
 
Cruikshank_s said:
So we USED to celebrate on the same day and it’s just a calendar preference?? When did the change happen and how/why did the Eastern Orthodox keep the old calendar?
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Well, here’s where the confusion comes in: the same date, December 25, is still used, but the day that date falls on has changed. 😛

I only have a hazy recollection of all the details, but here’s my horrible attempt at making it clear as mud. 😃

The original calendar didn’t factor in that the year is just short of 365 days (can’t remember the exact number), so as the years passed, the time of the year that December 25 fell on shifted; eventually it would be in the middle of the season of spring. Much later on the calendar was “corrected”, and this corrected calendar became the calendar used in the West, while the original calendar was still used in the East.

Since that time much of the East has also corrected the calendar, but this has been controversial in some quarters, and it came after the Western “fix” so the date is now different (more years of shifting days on the calendar).

Peace and God bless!
 
Perhaps this will make no sense, unless you know how to program in BASIC. For what it is worth, there is a formula I use to calculate the date of Pascha (ie. Easter). This formula produces the date on the Julian Calendar, so an added line to advance 13 days is needed to give the Gregorian Calendar date.
SUB Pascha (cy%, yr%, paschamonth%, paschadate%)
’
paschayear% = cy% * 100 + yr%
’
a% = FIX(paschayear% MOD 4 + .01)
b% = FIX(paschayear% MOD 7 + .01)
c% = FIX(paschayear% MOD 19 + .01)
d% = FIX((19 * c% + 15) MOD 30 + .01)
e% = FIX((2 * a% + 4 * b% - d% + 34) MOD 7 + .01)
paschamonth% = FIX((d% + e% + 114) / 31)
paschadate% = FIX((d% + e% + 114) MOD 31 + .01) + 1
’
'-Change Julian to Gregorian
CALL ADVDATE(13, cy%, yr%, paschamonth%, paschadate%)
’
END SUB
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Some Orthodox follow the Old Calendar some the New Calendar, but all of them follow the old formula for the date of Easter. The reason the formula gives a Julian Calendar date is because the formula has a Julian Calendar date built into it that is needed to calculate the correct date.
 
JohnVIII said:
Perhaps this will make no sense, unless you know how to program in BASIC. For what it is worth, there is a formula I use to calculate the date of Pascha (ie. Easter). This formula produces the date on the Julian Calendar, so an added line to advance 13 days is needed to give the Gregorian Calendar date.

Some Orthodox follow the Old Calendar some the New Calendar, but all of them follow the old formula for the date of Easter. The reason the formula gives a Julian Calendar date is because the formula has a Julian Calendar date built into it that is needed to calculate the correct date.
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So which Calendar do I use? (Latin Rite) Gregorian?
 
Ok also, I want to make sure I’m thinking right: We both celebrate Christmas on the 25 of December, but along the way the Latin Rite changed calendars and so now our respective 25ths of December fall on different days. And it’s listed as the 7th of January simply because it’s telling me the corresponding Latin date?
 
Cruikshank_s said:
Ok also, I want to make sure I’m thinking right: We both celebrate Christmas on the 25 of December, but along the way the Latin Rite changed calendars and so now our respective 25ths of December fall on different days. And it’s listed as the 7th of January simply because it’s telling me the corresponding Latin date?
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That is correct. The old Julian calendar has leap year every four years, just the same as the new Julian calendar. But that is the only adjustment to the Julian calendar has. As for the new Gregorian calendar, in addition to leap year every four years, it also has no leap year on every century year, unless that century year is divisible by 400, in which case it is a leap year.

The use of the new Gregorian calendar in the Orthodox Church is actually forbidden, as it was anathematized on November 20, 1583 (old calandar date). Its use today by many of the Orthodox churches is done so by “economy”.
 
An unresolved problem arose for those Orthodox Churches (the one I belong to now included) that went to the New Calendar but did not go to the new formula to determine the date of Easter. On some years the fast for the Holy Apostles ends before it begins.

Can anyone tell me-
Do Eastern Catholics do Easter with the Roman Church or do any of them have it on the same day as the Orthodox?
 
Modern calendar is corrected to 365.2425 days per year; we float around that using leap days. 365.24219 days per solar year is the scientific baseline.

The “Old Calendar” is offset because of centuries of difference from the “New Calendar”, and counting leap days differently; when the cultures of old calendarists modernized the civil calendars, the feast days were off, but retained in their Julian places on the calendar, tho referenced with the new system dates.

From wikipedia:
Calendar | rule | Mean year in days | calendar year minus mean tropical year in hh:mm:ss
Old Egyptian | 365 | = 365. 000 000 000 | -05:48:45.25
Julian | 365 + ¼ | = 365. 250 000 000 | 00:11:14.75
Gregorian | 365 + 97⁄400 | = 365. 242 500 000 | 00:00:26.75
Khayyam | 365 + 8⁄33 | = 365. 24 24 24 24 | 00:00:20.20
Revised Julian | 365 + 218⁄900 | = 365. 24 22 22 22 | 00:00:02.75
von Mädler | 365 + 31⁄128 | = 365. 242 187 500 |-00:00:00.25
 
So we USED to celebrate on the same day and it’s just a calendar preference?? When did the change happen and how/why did the Eastern Orthodox keep the old calendar?

**The change happened in the west sometime in the 16th century under one of the Popes name Gregory (hence the name "Gregorian Calendar).

It’s an issue too complex to discuss on computer boards. There is considerable literature by mostly Orthodox polemecists on both sides of the issue.

What’s ironic is that some Orthodox writers who consider the calendar as the touchstone of Orthodoxy seem to ignore the fact that the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Ukraine is TOTALLY on the Old Calendar.

And it’s been called “a situation bewildering to Orthodox and non-Orthodox alike.”

Ultimately, it’s not about the cycle of feasts and fasts, but the numbering of day.

You’ll save yourself a lot of trouble if you just leave the matter alone.**
 
Cruikshank_s said:
Why exactly is the Orthodox Christmas celebrated on the 7th of January? Is there some historical/religious/pious event that placed it on that date instead of the 25th of December? Now that I think of it does anyone know why the Latin Church chose the 25th of December? (other than the pagan influence)

I mean we both got our traditions from the apostles, did they have conflicting ideas too? Also, (one last question I swear!) Is Christmas supposed to be the actual date of Christ’s birth, or a set day of remberence?
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Many in the OCA operate under the Revised Julian Calendar. The Nativity is on December 25th just like the West. Pasch is done differently though.
 
There are actually four dates for Christmas. This is due to both calendar issues (Gregorian vs. Julian) and from the fact that some Apostolic Churches celebrated Christmas when we in the West celebrate Epiphany (Armenian – January 6). Also remember that as the calendars drift more and more, Christmas move apart – so in a number of years Orthodox Christmas will be on January 8 then 9, etc.

Thus the current dates of Christmas are:

December 25
January 6
January 7
January 19

And if you’re smart, you’ll demand a big festive dinner for each of those occasions. 😛
 
JohnVIII said:
Can anyone tell me-
Do Eastern Catholics do Easter with the Roman Church or do any of them have it on the same day as the Orthodox?
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As far as I know, Eastern Catholics use the Gregorian Calendar.
 
As far as I know, Eastern Catholics use the Gregorian Calendar.

But in Ukraine, the Julian calendar is used by Ukrainian Catholics.
 
As far as I know, Eastern Catholics use the Gregorian Calendar.
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But in Ukraine, the Julian calendar is used by Ukrainian Catholics.
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Not only in Ukraine - there are quite a few UGCC parishes in both the US and Canada that still observe the Julian Calendar. Basically each UGCC community can decide which calendar to observe in the diaspora.
 
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