Orthodox Church in America and Culture

[ConstantineTG]

But that’s not true. The Orthodox Churches DID develop those Liturgies, and they continued to develop them when they corrected them on those points which they had gone astray.

You’re of course correct that the Liturgy should develop organically. That’s one of the biggest problems those Orthodox I’ve spoken with on the issue find with the Novus Ordo and why they think it is in such shambles today.

But what do we mean when we say it should be developed organically? That it should take what’s gone before it and allow it to change slowly in accord with the need of the community. A sentence here, a word or phrase there, slowly these things change to make The Liturgy a true representation of the Community (within, of course, the Truth of The Church)

Well that’s what has been done. The Liturgy is not being used by Easterners, but by Westerners. It is their liturgical heritage. I might think your argument was stronger if it was an Eastern community with no experience in Western liturgy suddenly adopting this Liturgy but that’s not the case - it’s something that grew in their community from Orthodoxy to schism and back to Orthodoxy. That *is *organic growth.

I mean there should be a continuous line of development from the origin.

 

[Rawb]

I mean there should be a continuous line of development from the origin.

Perhaps in an ideal world, yes, but we’re working within the situation we find ourselves.

I’m not talking about the Mass of Paul VI itself. Just the innovations. Since the innovations are borne out of a desire to please the masses (people, not the Liturgy)

I know what you meant. The Sarum Rite and such were Orthodox Liturgies. It is acceptable for the Orthodox to re-institute them and adapt them to meet the needs of Her people. Thus it was allowed, it was a reasonable request.

The Novus Ordo is a complete Roman Catholic invention. It was never Orthodox, and thus it would be inappropriate to adopt any of it’s…novelties. Different situation entirely.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Perhaps in an ideal world, yes, but we’re working within the situation we find ourselves.

You guys could have picked up the Old Catholics back then. They were perfect, they were Roman Rite and they opposed Papal Infallibility. But its too late not.

I know what you meant. The Sarum Rite and such were Orthodox Liturgies. It is acceptable for the Orthodox to re-institute them and adapt them to meet the needs of Her people. Thus it was allowed, it was a reasonable request.

The Novus Ordo is a complete Roman Catholic invention. It was never Orthodox, and thus it would be inappropriate to adopt any of it’s…novelties. Different situation entirely.

You said the Liturgy belongs to the people who are part of the Church. So are you in favor of innovations introduced for the sake of satisfying the wants of the people. I’m not talking about he Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. Forget that, that was just an example.

 

[Rawb]

You guys could have picked up the Old Catholics back then. They were perfect, they were Roman Rite and they opposed Papal Infallibility. But its too late not.

This struck me as hilarious, “They were ripe for the picking!” I see what you mean though, and yeah, it would’ve been a great path for reunion. You’re also right however when you say it’s too late now. Why do people insist on ordaining women and opening Communion? Ah well.

You said the Liturgy belongs to the people who are part of the Church. So are you in favor of innovations introduced for the sake of satisfying the wants of the people. I’m not talking about he Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. Forget that, that was just an example.

Are you asking me a question or are we calling the whole thing off?

 

[Hesychios]

You guys could have picked up the Old Catholics back then. They were perfect …

We don’t “pick up” members like that. It’s not like we are out to ‘score’. They have to want to be Orthodox, they have to really believe in it, we are not playing a numbers game grabbing bodies.

The western rites in Orthodoxy derive from two sources.

Some Old Catholics in France asked to be admitted into Holy Orthodoxy, many adopted the Byzantine liturgy, but a few parishes use the Gregorian rite, which they had always used. So the Orthodox church does have an active Gregorian rite liturgy.

Anglicans (and later some others, like Lutherans) in North America asked to be admitted into Holy Orthodoxy, they use the Liturgy of St Tikhon, which is basically an earlier Anglican variation of the liturgy (this was before the BCP 1928, so I suppose the 1892 version). St Tikhon from his days in the north American Metropolia proposed that the Holy Synod accept the liturgy as a valid form of worship. Interestingly, the Russian Metropolia (the OCA today) has not made use of it.

However, where it has been used the congregations and their priests or ministers were already using these liturgies, or something extremely similar.

Those are the two basic groups, there would be a smattering of others (individual priests and monks converting) but that makes the basic foundation.

For what it’s worth most Protestant congregations in recent decades that have become Orthodox have adopted the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom/St Basil. Whether or not they can use another liturgy is not up to them, but in the hands of the bishop who receives them.

There is no question that some people are great admirers of these liturgies (I don’t, but some do). Many would like to see the western church return to it’s Orthodox roots and subsequently want to see these liturgies flourish again, and quite possibly they are eager to demonstrate to their eastern brothers and sisters that it is possible to be a western Christian and also be fully Orthodox. It is a demonstration of hope, I suppose.

From my experience I don’t think most individual Protestant converts actually want the western rites anyway, once they have become exposed to the Liturgy of St John that seems satisfactory enough. I think perhaps the allowing of western rites has also had a little bit to do with bringing entire congregations (including Grandma and aunt Meg) into the church with a little less distress and culture shock. Whatever the reasons it remains a pastoral decision.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Saying that a liturgy belongs to a church is like saying that the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom belongs to St. John Chrysostom—nobody has a copyright or anything taken out on liturgies. It’s a rather different situation from Eastern Catholicism as there is no independent “Ex-Anglican” or “Ex-Catholic” hierarchy as one might see with the sui iuris Eastern Catholic Churches; the use of the Western Rite is simply a parish-level decision and only in some ROCOR and Antiochian churches.

 

[Tyuiop411]

Hesychios, one thing thats always bugged me about some Eastern Orthodox is their insistence that once a Catholic becomes Orthodox he must renounce all things western. I wonder what would become of our Saints, novenas, prayers, sacramentals, and devotions if the East and West ever reunited on Orthodox terms.

 

[Hesychios]

Hesychios, one thing thats always bugged me about some Eastern Orthodox is their insistence that once a Catholic becomes Orthodox he must renounce all things western. I wonder what would become of our Saints, novenas, prayers, sacramentals, and devotions if the East and West ever reunited on Orthodox terms.

I wouldn’t say one must renounce all things western. Renouncing any heresies would be sufficient. I think your church would feel the same way.

If a Roman Catholic is very attached to these specifically western devotionals he (or she) should probably not look into Holy Orthodoxy, and stay away from the Eastern Catholic churches too. They aren’t very popular in the east, probably because there is a different mindset at work. A lot of those devotions are driven in some way by indulgences, which Orthodox do not generally have or need. I am not saying I know, but perhaps that is part of the reason.

 

[Tyuiop411]

I wouldn’t say one must renounce all things western. Renouncing any heresies would be sufficient. I think your church would feel the same way.

If a Roman Catholic is very attached to these specifically western devotionals he (or she) should probably not look into Holy Orthodoxy, and stay away from the Eastern Catholic churches too. They aren’t very popular in the east, probably because there is a different mindset at work. A lot of those devotions are driven in some way by indulgences, which Orthodox do not generally have or need. I am not saying I know, but perhaps that is part of the reason.

Post-schism Catholic Saints would be my primary concern if the RCC and the EO reunited on Orthodox terms. Would our Saints simply cease to be Saints? Would there be a wholesale adoption of all post-schism Catholic Saints? I know this seems like a weird thought, but I’m a wanderer, I’m always thinking “what if…”

 

[Cavaradossi]

Post-schism Catholic Saints would be my primary concern if the RCC and the EO reunited on Orthodox terms. Would our Saints simply cease to be Saints? Would there be a wholesale adoption of all post-schism Catholic Saints? I know this seems like a weird thought, but I’m a wanderer, I’m always thinking “what if…”

That is a hard question, but one which applies to both sides. An especially interesting question might be: what happens to the sainthood of Pope Nicholas I and Photios? Both are especially reviled characters in Orthodoxy and Catholicism respectively, and both are revered by their respective churches as saints. Do we find a way to make it so that both were justified in their actions? Do we just slip it in under the radar? It’s going to be a tough sell to make.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

In the OCA I visited, little old Ukrainian ladies besieged me with blessed bread. Such sweetheart. I love little old Orthodox ladies.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Thats the thing, can people just bring their liturgical traditions just because they want to? Doesn’t liturgical traditions belong to the Church and not the people who practice them? I mean, people can easily shift not only between Liturgical Rites but also in and out of Catholicism/Orthodoxy into different Christian denominations and even non-Christian faiths. I know priests and bishops can do that to, but as part of the ordination of the Bishop he is the visible symbol of the Church, not the laity.

How is an Orthodox Western Rite much different than the Anglican-use Roman Rite within the Catholic Church? I don’t know of any entire Anglican dioceses (with their bishops) coming into communion with Rome.

So you wouldn’t mind all these “Novus Ordo innovations” if it creeps into the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom because the people want it?

I don’t think it was his position that the Orthodox Church must or ought to grant the use of a different liturgy (or even specific practices within a liturgy) simply because the people desire it, rather that the Orthodox church may do so.