Orthodox Churches, and Eastern Rite

[dvdjs]

The very first sticherion for the Vespers of the Falling Asleep of Our Lady reads, “O Marvelous wonder! The Font of life hath been laid in a grave, and the tomb hath become a ladder leading to heaven. Rejoice, O Gethsemane, the holy chamber of the Theotokos…”

There is no clear statement that she died in this passage. That is not to say that she didn’t, simply that the passing from earthly existence and translation to heaven is the point - not her death, as though that has some theological importance.

There is no such thing as a deathless dormition

But that is clear - explicitly - in the texts of the feast.

O Theotokos, Mother of the Life, clouds caught up the apostles into
the air at your deathless Dormition.

Also:

What spiritual songs shall we now offer you, O most holy one?
For by your deathless Dormition you have sanctified the whole world,
and have been translated to the places above the world,
there to perceive the beauty of the Almighty,
and, as His Mother, to rejoice in it exceedingly.

Not only does a deathless dormition exist. That is the whole point of the feast: that “death is no longer death”, as Schmemann says, “neither fear, nor horror, nor finality, but radiant and authentic Resurrection joy.”

Death is no longer death. Death radiates with eternity and immortality. Death is not rupture but union; not sorrow but joy; not defeat, but victory. This then is what we celebrate on the day of the Dormition of the Most Pure Mother

 

[Cavaradossi]

I just reread all of the propers for vespers and matins of the feast, and cannot find anything that supports your contention. In the canon, we say that she passed from earth to the mansions of heaven and to life without end. From earth, not from death; not even through death.

Funny, we must be reading different texts, because the second troparion (after the Herimos) from the fourth ode of the first canon of Orthros says specifically, “Ζωῆς ἀϊδίου καὶ κρείττονος, ὁ θάνατός σου γέγονε, διαβατήριον Ἁγνή,” or (roughly translated), “Your death, O Pure One, has become a passage of eternal and better [or perhaps the better English term here would be ‘more excellent’] life.”

 

[GaryTaylor]

Marys death was a consequence of what sin?

So what supernatural death are we defining?

 

[frjohnmorris]

There is no clear statement that she died in this passage. That is not to say that she didn’t, simply that the passing from earthly existence and translation to heaven is the point - not her death, as though that has some theological importance.

But that is clear - explicitly - in the texts of the feast.

Also:

Not only does a deathless dormition exist. That is the whole point of the feast: that “death is no longer death”, as Schmemann says, “neither fear, nor horror, nor finality, but radiant and authentic Resurrection joy.”

The Sticherion tells us that the body of Our Lady was placed in the grave. If someone is not dead, they are not placed in a grave. The third Kathisma for Matins of the feast contains the phrase, “for as thy falling asleep, it was death without corruption…” Our Lady is not the only Saint whose body did not corrupt. Both the Eastern Orthodox and the Roan Catholic Church venerates the uncorrupted bodies of Saints.
The 9th ode of the 1st Canon for the feast, “Verily the ranks of the Apostles did bury thy God-bearing body…” Again, if the Apostles buried her body, she was dead.
The name of the feast, Falling Asleep, mean dying.
Mary died a natural death. Three days later the Apostles opened her tomb to show St. Thomas her body, but the body was not there, they then had a vision of her ascending body and soul to Heaven. The icon of the feast, shows her lying dead.

Fr. John
.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I just reread all of the propers for vespers and matins of the feast, and cannot find anything that supports your contention. In the canon, we say that she passed from earth to the mansions of heaven and to life without end. From earth, not from death; not even through death.

Another, which I forgot about. This is from the third troparion of the sixth ode of the second canon, “διὰ θανάτου γάρ, πρὸς τὴν ζωὴν μεταβέβηκας…,” Which specifically means, “for through death, you passed to life…”

 

[dvdjs]

The Sticherion tells us that the body of Our Lady was placed in the grave. If someone is not dead, they are not placed in a grave. The third Kathisma for Matins of the feast contains the phrase, “for as thy falling asleep, it was death without corruption…” Our Lady is not the only Saint whose body did not corrupt. Both the Eastern Orthodox and the Roan Catholic Church venerates the uncorrupted bodies of Saints.
The 9th ode of the 1st Canon for the feast, “Verily the ranks of the Apostles did bury thy God-bearing body…” Again, if the Apostles buried her body, she was dead.
The name of the feast, Falling Asleep, mean dying.
Mary died a natural death. Three days later the Apostles opened her tomb to show St. Thomas her body, but the body was not there, they then had a vision of her ascending body and soul to Heaven. The icon of the feast, shows her lying dead.
.

I do not contest that she died. I really don’t care. I don’t care if her soul and body were never separated, were separated for seconds, or for some other finite time less than or equal to three days.

I contest that that her “death” is of any significance for the feast, or that it is meaningful in the texts of the feast. Or that it is clear - ie stated directly and unambiguously, without the need for conjecture and interpretation, in the texts.

Indeed, I think the fixation on her physical death, avails absolutely nothing and impedes an genuine understanding of the significance of the feast - an understanding that might be advanced by coming to grips with the fact that there is a “deathless dormition” and we provclaim it.

 

[frjohnmorris]

Another, which I forgot about. This is from the third troparion of the sixth ode of the second canon, “διὰ θανάτου γάρ, πρὸς τὴν ζωὴν μεταβέβηκας…,” Which specifically means, “for through death, you passed to life…”

Thus the liturgical texts for the Feast of the Falling Asleep of the Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary teach that she actually died and then passed to life after her death. Remember the feast originated in the East. Therefore, the Eastern liturgical texts are the best definition of the meaning of the feast.

Fr. John

 

[dvdjs]

Funny, we must be reading different texts, because the second troparion (after the Herimos) from the fourth ode of the first canon of Orthros says specifically, “Ζωῆς ἀϊδίου καὶ κρείττονος, ὁ θάνατός σου γέγονε, διαβατήριον Ἁγνή,” or (roughly translated), “Your death, O Pure One, has become a passage of eternal and better [or perhaps the better English term here would be ‘more excellent’] life.”

I have seen this translated differently: Death has become for you … In any case, the idea that her death had some redemptive power , analogous to the death of Christ as suggested in your earlier post, is not clear fro the text, and represents a highly novel interpretation that I have never heard elsewhere.

 

[dvdjs]

Thus the liturgical texts for the Feast of the Falling Asleep of the Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary teach that she actually died and then passed to life after her death. Remember the feast originated in the East. Therefore, the Eastern liturgical texts are the best definition of the meaning of the feast.

Wow. It is hard to imagine anything more pointless that thinking that the feast of the dormition is to teach that she died and to commemorate that death. Repeating:

Indeed, I think the fixation on her physical death, avails absolutely nothing and impedes an genuine understanding of the significance of the feast - an understanding that might be advanced by coming to grips with the fact that there is a “deathless dormition” and we proclaim it.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I have seen this translated differently: Death has become for you …

It seems silly to argue that the σου from “θάνατός σου” with the word σου functioning as an enclitic (hence the accute accent on τός which otherwise would not be there) is not meant to modify the word θάνατός.

In any case, the idea that her death had some redemptive power , analogous to the death of Christ as suggested in your earlier post, is not clear fro the text, and represents a highly novel interpretation that I have never heard elsewhere.

Nonsense, I never wrote anything of the sort. I simply pointed out that the texts comment on the paschal nature of death (which as Protopresbyter Alexander Schmemann points out is the idea of death as a passing into new life). There is no redemptive power in death analagous to the death of Christ, nor did I ever write such a blasphemy against Christ as has here been implied in libelous manner. Rather I wrote that the paschal mystery is only encountered through death, something which is true both in baptism (where the old man is slain), and in our coming bodily death and resurrection.

 

[dvdjs]

Nonsense, I never wrote anything of the sort. I simply pointed out that the texts comment on the paschal nature of death (which as Protopresbyter Alexander Schmemann points out is the idea of death as a passing into new life). There is no redemptive power in death analagous to the death of Christ, nor did I ever write such a blasphemy against Christ as has here been implied in libelous manner. Rather I wrote that the paschal mystery is only encountered through death, something which is true both in baptism (where the old man is slain), and in our coming bodily death and resurrection.

Good. I am glad that you qualify your allusion to the Paschal mystery. And further, by introduction of the the metaphorical death at baptism - like the martyrdom in marriage, see that physical death is not the point at all, but the translation to new life. That is just what I have been hoping for people to say.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Good. I am glad that you qualify your allusion to the Paschal mystery. And further, by introduction of the the metaphorical death at baptism - like the martyrdom in marriage, see that physical death is not the point at all, but the translation to new life. That is just what I have been hoping for people to say.

But physical death is still a part of it, and it informs our piety to a certain extent (both East and West, think of memento mori, for example). We cannot become so completely docetic that we come to think that there is no significance to the event of our own human deaths.

 

[dvdjs]

But physical death is still a part of it, and it informs our piety to a certain extent (both East and West, think of memento mori, for example). We cannot become so completely docetic that we come to think that there is no significance to the event of our own human deaths.

Fair enough; passing from earthly is worth memorializing.
But we need to be promoting the recognition that “death is no longer death”, “neither fear, nor horror, nor finality, but radiant and authentic Resurrection joy.”

 

[frjohnmorris]

Wow. It is hard to imagine anything more pointless that thinking that the feast of the dormition is to teach that she died and to commemorate that death. Repeating:

The Church always commemorates Saints on the day of their death and entry into Heaven.
The first words of the Canon of Matins for the feast are “Your holy and noble death…” I am taking this from a Festal Menaion published by the Sisters of St. Basil the Great who belong to the Ukrainian Catholic Church.
The feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary is also the feast of her assumption. The feast commemorate, the teaching that she died and was buried, but that 3rd day the Apostles went to her tomb and found it empty and saw her ascending, body and soul into Heaven 3 days later. By the way there was a discuss a while back about where she died, the liturgical texts clearly state that she was buried in Gethsemane.

Fr. John

 

[dvdjs]

The feast commemorate, the teaching that she died and was buried

No. You really miss the point.

Can Orthodoxy survive in an American church of Protestant converts? Hospodi Pomiluj.

 

[Peter_J]

Can Orthodoxy survive in an American church of Protestant converts? Hospodi Pomiluj.

I think the answer to that will depend on whether you base it on reality or on prejudice.

 

[dvdjs]

I think the answer to that will depend on whether you base it on reality or on prejudice.

The answer will depend on authentic orthopraxis and orthodox thinking that is rooted in tradition rather than the modern theological innovations or pre-conversion baggage; it will have nothing to do with what I base anything on.

And after all of these posts, all of the attempts at discussion, and all of the stonewalling (any discussion of the significance of “deathless dormition”?), it is a bit much to suggest that prejudice is at work.

 

[Peter_J]

The answer will depend on authentic orthopraxis and orthodox thinking that is rooted in tradition rather than the modern theological innovations or pre-conversion baggage; it will have nothing to do with what I base anything on.

And after all of these posts, all of the attempts at discussion, and all of the stonewalling (any discussion of the significance of “deathless dormition”?), it is a bit much to suggest that prejudice is at work.

Oh I was just kidding. There’s no such thing as prejudice against protestants who converted to Orthodoxy.

 

[frjohnmorris]

No. You really miss the point.

Can Orthodoxy survive in an American church of Protestant converts? Hospodi Pomiluj.

I am not sure how to take that comment. It sounds rather ethnocntric. I hope that you did not mean it that way. We require catechesis and full acceptance of the Orthodox Faith without reservations before we bring any converts into the Church. It takes about a year. When we have received a whole parish, which we have, the entire parish has to be catechized.
Not only can Orthodoxy survive. It is flourishing. In the Deanery, my parish is the only old parish, the rest are all American Churches filled with former Protestants. Right now the majority of clergy under the Patriarchate of Antioch in the United States were not born in the Orthodox Church. During the past 25 years we have started dozens of missions that have grown into parishes.

Fr. John

 

[frjohnmorris]

I just reread all of the propers for vespers and matins of the feast, and cannot find anything that supports your contention. In the canon, we say that she passed from earth to the mansions of heaven and to life without end. From earth, not from death; not even through death.

Christ’s death, and resurrection, are essential in the paschal mystery. Our resurrection is the fruit of this mystery. I am surprised to hear the idea that our death, or hers, has significance. I think the idea is just the opposite: death by Christ’s death is vanquished, and we share in the triumph over death. Hwncw we speak of the “deathless dormition”…

I looked at both Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic (Melkite and Byzantine Catholic) translations and they all contain multiple references to the death and burial of Our Lady. Then after her death and burial she rose from the dead and ascended body and soul to Heaven.

The Kontakion of the feast in the Melkite Eastern Catholic translation reads:
Neither death nor the tomb could hold the Mother of God…
The death, resurrection and ascension of Mary has significance because it shows that we too will rise from the dead…

Fr. John