Orthodox Churches, and Eastern Rite

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The CC - purification/purgatory states those who are saved and not yet glorified must be purified before entering heaven and this is the purification/purgatory.

What is doesn’t say is that it is a place or specific process( other than continued divinization) or that one has to undergo particular specifics such as fires and toll booths etc. I think all that is fine to help grasp the concept. Needless to say this isn’t well defined.

Also we have to concede free-will exists here but the strength of conviction must be elevated as I would suspect in heaven.
 
Further thought, individuals who experience a near death experience or in fact by all medical terms in fact were dead, yet survived by Gods Grace. What happened there, in Gods wisdom the particular judgment was postponed as a blessing?
 
I do not know. As I have written many times, we cannot understand the mysteries of God.

Fr. John
 
I do not know. As I have written many times, we cannot understand the mysteries of God.

Fr. John
Father John, btw, if you get a chance read “Life of the Virgin” by St Maximus the Confessor. You’ll see the further elaboration is relation to your posts on St Mary’s Dormition. I’ll type it up and post it when I have a moment. I attempted to last night and became distracted.
 
Father John, btw, if you get a chance read “Life of the Virgin” by St Maximus the Confessor. You’ll see the further elaboration is relation to your posts on St Mary’s Dormition. I’ll type it up and post it when I have a moment. I attempted to last night and became distracted.
If I have, I do not remember it. I have read a great deal and cannot remember everything that I have read.
However, this morning, I checked a Byzantine Catholic liturgical book. It contains the same texts regarding the Dormition that we and the Melkites use. The texts refer to Mary’s death and then her assumption.

Fr. John
 
If I have, I do not remember it. I have read a great deal and cannot remember everything that I have read.
However, this morning, I checked a Byzantine Catholic liturgical book. It contains the same texts regarding the Dormition that we and the Melkites use. The texts refer to Mary’s death and then her assumption.

Fr. John
Right, you may have read it your thinking is consistent, also with the Angel Gabriel by being called by the Lord. The Saint expose’s much of the tradition which dates back to St Marys birth forward.

“When Christ our God wanted to bring his all-holy and immaculate mother forth from the world and lead her into the kingdom of heaven so that she would receive the eternal crown of virtues and supernatural labors, and so that he could place her at his right hand beautifully adorned with golden tassels in many colors (cf. Ps 44:10, 14) and proclaim her queen of all creatures, and so that she would pass behind the veil and dwell in the Holy of Holies, he revealed her glorious Dormition to her in advance. And he sent the archangel Gabriel to her again to announce her glorious Dormition, as he had before the wondrous conception. Thus the archangel came and brought her a branch from a date palm, which is a sign of victory: as once they went with branches of date palms to meet her son (cf. John 12:13), the victor over death and vanquisher of Hell, so the archangel brought the branch to the holy queen, a sign of victory over suffering and fearlessness before death.”

Life of the Virgin.

Not exactly what I was referencing but its all I could find on a search.
 
Right, you may have read it your thinking is consistent, also with the Angel Gabriel by being called by the Lord. The Saint expose’s much of the tradition which dates back to St Marys birth forward.

“When Christ our God wanted to bring his all-holy and immaculate mother forth from the world and lead her into the kingdom of heaven so that she would receive the eternal crown of virtues and supernatural labors, and so that he could place her at his right hand beautifully adorned with golden tassels in many colors (cf. Ps 44:10, 14) and proclaim her queen of all creatures, and so that she would pass behind the veil and dwell in the Holy of Holies, he revealed her glorious Dormition to her in advance. And he sent the archangel Gabriel to her again to announce her glorious Dormition, as he had before the wondrous conception. Thus the archangel came and brought her a branch from a date palm, which is a sign of victory: as once they went with branches of date palms to meet her son (cf. John 12:13), the victor over death and vanquisher of Hell, so the archangel brought the branch to the holy queen, a sign of victory over suffering and fearlessness before death.”

Life of the Virgin.

Not exactly what I was referencing but its all I could find on a search.
The point is that not only Eastern Orthodox, but Eastern Catholics in communion with Rome teach that the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary actually died. That means that she was born in ancestral sin. However, by God’s grace, she was able to live a sinless life, and was prepared to become the Theotokos, a fact that Eastern Orthodox will celebrate on Thursday when we observe the Feast of the Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple.

Fr. John
 
The translation of Romans 5:12 is not a matter of dispute. It is simply a matter of correctly translating the original Greek, which the Latin translation did not. Fr. John
Hello frjohn,
The Coucil of Trent decreed "For that which the apostle has said, By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned (Romans 5:12), is not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church spread every where hath always understood it. For, by reason of this rule of faith, from a tradition of the apostles, even infants, who could not as yet commit any sin of themselves, are for this cause truly baptized for the remission of sins, that in them that may be cleansed away by regeneration, which they have contracted by generation. For, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the kingdom of God. (John iii. 5.)

This canon of Trent can also be seen in the councils of Carthage and Orange. So it is a rule of faith in the Catholic Church that however one might want to translate Romans 5:12, it is to be understood that all men have sinned in Adam and thus contract by generation the fault or sin of Adam. Christ promised that he would send to the Church the Spirit of truth who would guide the Church to all truth. The Holy Spirit was sent upon the Church at Pentacost.
CCC#85 “The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.” This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome."

So for a catholic, the Church who is guided by the Holy Spirit and which Spirit is the principle author of Holy Scripture, has told us that the authentic interpretation of Romans 5:12 is that all mankind has sinned in Adam.

The New Jerome Biblical Commentary says the meaning of the phrase “eph ho” is much disputed. It list 5 ways that “eph ho” has been variously translated. The New Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture says the phrase 'eph ho pantes hemarton" is ambigious and has been variously translated. The New Jerome Biblical Commentary says that most modern commentators understand “eph ho” as the equivalent of a conjunction, “since, because, inasmuch as.” Yet this understanding is also not without some difficulties. However it is translated, the Church understands Romans 5:12 as that in Adam all mankind have sinned.

The CCC#402 says: All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: “sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned.” Here we see that Romans 5:12 is translated “because all men sinned.” This appears to be the common translation now. According to the Catholic Church’s rule of faith as the Council of Trent decreed, “because all men sinned” means that all men have sinned in Adam.

The thrust of Romans 5:12-14 is that St Paul is saying that Adam’s sin which resulted in death both bodily death and spiritual death has spread to all mankind. Adam’s sin is the cause of the spiritual and bodily death of all mankind. For even those people before the Law, from Adam to Moses died even though they did not sin after the trespass of Adam which was a positive or formal command. These people did in fact sin against the natural law for we have the account of the flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Cain killing Abel. However, these personal sins were not like the transgression of Adam because the natural law did not explicitly bind under pain of death. If, nevertheless, they in fact had to die, this proves, the Apostle concludes, that death is due not to personal sins but to original sin or the fault of Adam. It is also proved, the Fathers of the Church usually add, by the fact that some people die before reaching the use of reason (infants and children), that is, before they are capable of sinning.

Some commentators interpret “because all men sinned” to refer to personal sins so that the cause of death is not only Adam’s sin but each man’s personal sins too. However, this interpretation appears to contradict what St Paul says in verses 13-14. In these verses, St Paul argues that the personal sins of people from Adam to Moses was not accounted against them to the point of being penalized by death “for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law. But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin after the pattern of the trespass of Adam, who is the type of the one who was to come.” St Paul concludes in verse 15 “For if by that one person’s transgression the many died.”

(continued)
 
HelloThe CCC#402 says: All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: “sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned.” Here we see that Romans 5:12 is translated “because all men sinned.” This appears to be the common translation now. According to the Catholic Church’s rule of faith as the Council of Trent decreed, “because all men sinned” means that all men have sinned in Adam.

The thrust of Romans 5:12-14 is that St Paul is saying that Adam’s sin which resulted in death both bodily death and spiritual death has spread to all mankind.
I thougth that according to Roman Catholic teaching, Mary did not sin. How can you say that all men have sinned if Mary did not sin?
 
The translation of Romans 5:12 is not a matter of dispute. It is simply a matter of correctly translating the original Greek, which the Latin translation did not. As a result Augustine developed a theology that is un Biblical and included total depravity, and the loss of free will. We inherit mortality from Adam and Eve. Your last statement is correct. Adam’s transgression brought death to all his descendents. Because we are mortal, we are born in corruption. Because we are born in corruption, we all sin. Because we are born mortal infants die, although they have committed no personal sins. Ancestral sin is the inheritance of the consequences of the sin of Adam and Eve which is mortality. God only judges us guilty of our own sins not the sins of Adam and Eve.

Fr. John
(continued)

Nor can it be said that all men die because all men personally commit a mortal sin. It is evident that some infants and children die without commiting a personal sin at all. And who is to say that all the holy men and women and prophets of old ever committed a mortal sin. Maybe some did, maybe some didn’t. I guess it may be possible that the phrase “because all men sinned” may have a secondary meaning referring to personal sins but that is not its primary meaning according to the teaching of the Church. Nor have I read anywhere that the Church says that it may have such a secondary meaning. This interpretation is nothing more than one given to it by some particular commentators and whether or not they received an inspiration from the Holy Spirit can be debated. I have read somewhere that some of the greek fathers understood 'because all men sinned" to refer to personal sins in some manner though maybe not in a primary manner. However, this is besides the point as Christ entrusted the authentic interpretation of the Word of God, both written and oral, to the teaching magisterium of the Church alone.

According to the teaching of the Catholic Church, St Augustine did not develope a theology of original sin that is unbiblical as is clear from what I said in the previous post concerning the faith of the Catholic Church. St Augustine developed his theology of original sin from Holy Scripture especially from St Paul. The Church has decreed that Augustine’s interpretation of St Paul is correct and at least the essentials of Augustine’s theology of original sin. Whether or not everything Augustine said concerning original sin is in accord with the Church’s teaching, I don’t know off hand.

St Augustine did not invent the doctrine of original sin. He appeals to the Tradition of the Church when he writes to the Pelagian Bishop Julian of Eclanum “It is not I who have invented original sin, which the Catholic Faith holds from of old, but thou, who deniest it, thou art without doubt a new heretic.”

In Contra Julianum, St Augustine appeals to the Tradition of the Church concerning original sin and quotes St Irenaeus, St Cyprian, Reticius of Autun, Olympius, St Hilary, St Ambrose, Innocent I, St Gregory Nazianzus, St John Chrysostom, St Basil and St Jerome.

That St Augustine taught a doctrine of total depravity and loss of free will due to original sin is false. If it appears some texts seem to suggest this, then I suggest one read his book of retractions as well as try to understand what he is saying in light of man’s supernatural end. If you read somewhere that St Augustine taught a doctrine of total depravity and loss of free will, then I suggest that this person from whom you read this about either has a very vivid imagination or does not understand what Augustine actually taught.
St Augustine said “He who created thee without thy help, does not justify thee without thy help.”

The teaching of the Catholic Church is that we not only inherit mortality from Adam and Eve, but the death of the soul too which is the loss of sanctifying grace which grace is what makes us just and righteous before God and His adoptive sons and daughters. The death of the body was a consequence of the death of the soul. It is a good thing that our bodies will rise from the dead at the end of the world, but it is much more important that our souls rise from their death first. Jesus did not come to redeem us from only physical death but especially from spiritual death. Jesus said “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live" (John 11:25).

And "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born* from above…Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit. (John 3: 3, 5-6).

The Church baptizes infants for the forgiveness of sins. Now you can’t be baptized for the forgiveness of sins without some fault. The fault that infants are forgiven is not one they have personally committed but it is the fault or sin of that first sin of the human race committed by Adam and Eve and which is transmitted to every single human being (except Jesus and Mary) by propagation of the human race “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience, many will be made righteous.” (Romans 5:19).

Richca
 
I thougth that according to Roman Catholic teaching, Mary did not sin. How can you say that all men have sinned if Mary did not sin?
Hi tomdstone,
Your correct. I did not mean to say that Mary and Jesus ever sinned. Both Mary and Jesus never committed an actual personal sin nor were they conceived with original sin on their souls. Mary and Jesus are the only two persons descended from Adam and Eve who did not contract original sin. Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary in 1854.

Our Blessed Lady confirmed the dogma of her Immaculate Conception in 1858 in Lourdes, France in her apparitions to St Bernadette of Soubirous. The parish priest of Lourdes had asked Bernadette to ask the Lady of the apparitions her name. Finally, on the feast of the Annunciation on March 25, 1858, Our Lady again appeared to St Bernadette. Bernadette asked Mary 4 times “Would you be so kind as to tell me who you are?” The answer finally came: “I am the Immaculate Conception.”

Richca
 
Hi tomdstone,
Your correct. I did not mean to say that Mary and Jesus ever sinned. Both Mary and Jesus never committed an actual personal sin nor were they conceived with original sin on their souls. Mary and Jesus are the only two persons descended from Adam and Eve who did not contract original sin. Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary in 1854.

Our Blessed Lady confirmed the dogma of her Immaculate Conception in 1858 in Lourdes, France in her apparitions to St Bernadette of Soubirous. The parish priest of Lourdes had asked Bernadette to ask the Lady of the apparitions her name. Finally, on the feast of the Annunciation on March 25, 1858, Our Lady again appeared to St Bernadette. Bernadette asked Mary 4 times “Would you be so kind as to tell me who you are?” The answer finally came: “I am the Immaculate Conception.”

Richca
Maybe you would know? It has been my thinking that Mary did not die but was assumed into heaven and that assumed meant that and if she did die how would she be then assumed body and soul? I ask because it seemed to that because Mary was free from sin and did not sin and also being the Mother of Jesus the Christ free of sin that she did not die but was assumed to heaven body and soul by God.
 
The point is that not only Eastern Orthodox, but Eastern Catholics in communion with Rome teach that the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary actually died. That means that she was born in ancestral sin. However, by God’s grace, she was able to live a sinless life, and was prepared to become the Theotokos, a fact that Eastern Orthodox will celebrate on Thursday when we observe the Feast of the Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple.

Fr. John
The teaching from St Maximus is in line with your thinking. She was preserved at the Incarnation. which the difference being with the CC and IC is at the moment of Her conception, which they consider most fitting. As to Her childhood the teachings come from the Gospel of James which precedes anything we see in scripture.

The arguments all remain the same through from the Incarnation forward as to St Mary’s state of grace.

Calvin’s conclusions deviate from the basic assertion of Augustine.

"And it was made clear to me that all things are good even if they are corrupted…all that is corrupted is thereby deprived of good. But if they are deprived of all good, they will cease to be… if they are deprived of all good, they will cease to exist. So long as they are, therefore, they are good. Therefore, whatsoever is, is good. For good to be diminished is evil; still, however much it is diminished, something must remain of its original nature as long as it exists at all… For no matter what kind or however insignificant a thing may be, the good which is its nature cannot be destroyed without the thing itself being destroyed. And even if the corruption is not arrested, it still does not cease having some good of which it cannot be further deprived. And if the corruption comes to be total and entire, there is no good left because it is no longer an entity at all. Wherefore corruption cannot consume the good without also consuming the thing itself.

Every actual being is therefore good… (and) only the foolish and unknowing can deny that it is still good even when corrupted. For whenever a thing is consumed by corruption, not even the corruption remains for it is nothing in itself, having no subsistent being in which to exist. From this it follows that there is nothing to be called evil if there is nothing good…every being, in so far as it has a being, is good.

…We find that the bad man is not bad because he is a man; rather, he is a good entity in so far as he is a man, evil (only) in so far as he is wicked. Therefore, if anyone says that simply to be a man is evil… he rightly falls under the prophetic judgment: woe to him who calls evil good and good evil. For this amounts to finding fault with God’s work, because man is an entity of God’s creation."

Augustine, Confessions and Enchiridion
 
Hey Father, the reformers had the same problem reading the Saints as they do with Sola Scripture reading. 😛
 
It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase “kecharitomene” as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace (Greek Grammar of the New Testament, Blass & DeBrunner).]

Death is a consequence of the discontinuation of communion with the life and love of God, and thereby a captivity of mankind and creation by the devil and this is nailed to the Cross as St Paul states.

God does not have a discontinuation of Grace from himself, nor did He when He was alive. Jesus the Living God takes on a completely human nature, fully human/divine as the hypostatic union states. The discontinuation of Communion thus Grace does not apply to the Human condition of Jesus Christ or he would not be God, This is the why Mary is perfectly Graced and by the Greek language.

We can only be debating “when” in my estimation. The Catholic Church states from my estimation that it is Most Fitting in the IC.

Also according to my Biblical reading and the sequence of events the BVM was “kecharitomene” before the Incarnation? What does that make all who believe in the Incarnation theory? Wrong? :eek:
 
Maybe you would know? It has been my thinking that Mary did not die but was assumed into heaven and that assumed meant that and if she did die how would she be then assumed body and soul? I ask because it seemed to that because Mary was free from sin and did not sin and also being the Mother of Jesus the Christ free of sin that she did not die but was assumed to heaven body and soul by God.
Hi Spina,
I see you are a member of the Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites 👍 I’m very famaliar with the Discalced Carmelites in the western province of the U.S. and I know a number of the priests in this province.
As to the question whether our Blessed Lady died or not before her assumption into heaven, I don’t know whether the Church has pronounced anything definitive on the matter one way or the other. The definition given by Pope Pius XII in 1950 is that Mary was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory after having completed the course of her earthly life.

The APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION OF MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS where in Pope Pius XII
defined the dogma of the Assumption of our Blessed Mother does contain references from fathers and doctors of the Church where Mary was assumed into heaven after death.

Concerning the Feast of the Assumption, the Apostolic Constitution says: “They offered more profound explanations of its meaning and nature, bringing out into sharper light the fact that this feast shows, not only that the dead body of the Blessed Virgin Mary remained incorrupt, but that she gained a triumph out of death, her heavenly glorification after the example of her only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.”

It quotes St John Damascene “It was fitting that she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death.”

It also quotes another ancient writer : “As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him.”

And then in the Office of Readings from the Liturgy of the Hours for the Feast of the Assumption, some of the same texts I quoted above are in the second reading. The second reading is taken from the apostolic constitution MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS.

The CCC#966 refers to the Dormition of Mary from the Byzantine Liturgy, the Feast of the Dormition, August 15. From a quick google search, it appears to mean the Falling Asleep of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Whether or not the falling asleep of Mary refers to her actually dying or not in the Byzantine Liturgy, I don’t know.

In Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, Richca
 
Follow? We have feast’s including the IC and everywhere but Rome first, liturgy, the gospel of James, the Angel Gabriel appearing at the Dormition, confusion over the language. Then we have St Maximus telling us he heard it from Athanasius and others, but he doesn’t reference where nor does this exist?

St Maximus page-133-134 “But John the Theologian met them and greeted them, and he bought them in before the holy and blessed Virgin. Not only where the twelve there, but also many others of their distinguished disciples and those who were worthy of the apostleship, as the Great Dionysius the Areopagite informs us in his letter wrttien to Timothy, Hierotheus and others of their friends came there with the Apostles for the Dormition of the Queen. They went in before Her and greeted Her with fear and respect.”

Now in my mind this is all beautiful, but where are all these letters of confirmation? Where do we prove any of this?
 
St Maximus page 38, Life of the Virgin.

" I have read in a apocryphal book that the father of the Holy Virgin Mary was renowned for his observance of the Law and was famous for his charity" Gregory of Nyssa

we will relate and make known what is trustworthy and reliable, true testimonies taken from the assembly of the pious, deeply devote Fathers whose words are full of wisdom and where written by the grace of the Holy Spirit, and their works are beautiful and virtuous. These are Gregory of Neocaearea the Thaumaturge, the great Athanasius of Alexandria, the blessed Gregory of Nyssa and Dionysius the Areopagite, and others similar in virtue"

I’m afraid to ask, do you have these?
 
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