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Razanir
Guest
So out of question, what does the Catholic Church teach about salvation in Orthodox churches? Are they also saved like we can be?
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john330
Guest
Yes, of course. If you believe in Jesus, salvation is already taking place within you. God can save whoever He wants, be they catholic, Orthodox, or pagan. It is His choice, the Church does not presume to say who will be saved.
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bobbyhillisabro
Guest
This is completely contrary to everything that The Church has ever stood for. Paganism has no salvific qualities. Only Christ’s Church is salvific. But you are correct that The Church does not decide on who is saved and who is not.
Now as an answer to your question, The Church has always had the position that there is no salvation outside of The Church and that you must be in communion with The Pope. This doesn’t mean that every one who is not Catholic is not saved. Like the Native Americans before the 16th century. They fall under invincible ignorance. They will be judged according to how they lived according to Natural Law and the law that God has written on the hearts of all men because they had no way of knowing about the Gospel of Jesus Christ or his Church. As for non-Catholic Christians, we can always pray for their salvation. If they are saved, it is because of ignorance of something. Not invincible ignorance though, that is only reserved for those who cannot know about The Gospel and Church because of factors beyond their control.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I know the topic is about the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching if the Orthodox are saved or not.
The Orthodox response to this is this, we don’t care. Our faith and hope in salvation rest in Christ in the faith given to us through the Orthodox Church. Neither should you non-Orthodox care what the Orthodox Church think about your own salvation. If you think that another Church’s teaching on whether you are saved or not is important to you, then you are in the wrong Church and you certainly need to join that other Church you are so concerned about.
The Orthodox response to this is this, we don’t care. Our faith and hope in salvation rest in Christ in the faith given to us through the Orthodox Church. Neither should you non-Orthodox care what the Orthodox Church think about your own salvation. If you think that another Church’s teaching on whether you are saved or not is important to you, then you are in the wrong Church and you certainly need to join that other Church you are so concerned about.
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Surnaturel
Guest
People are concerned because they want to establish a relationship and familiarity with other Christians and if the other Church thinks that all or most of them will be damned then they will probably identify that Church as not holding a great enough degree of truth to bother with.
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dzheremi
Guest
I’ve never heard this concept of “degrees of truth” as a pretext for any interaction with any church outside of the communion, though, so even in the motivations this question seems odd.
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Surnaturel
Guest
Lol, it was late last night when I wrote that. Admittedly, it was a strange phrasing. I meant to say that if another Church teaches that your Church is heretical and the adherents likely damned then that pretty much stops dialogue before it begins. This is why you don’t see many Southern Baptists engaged in ecumenical dialogue.
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john330
Guest
No, it is not. God can save whom ever He chooses, and faith in Jesus is the beginning of salvation. Both those statements are true. I did not say paganism has salvific qualities. I only said that God can save non believers if He chooses to do so.
I agree with everything else that you said. I think we agree on most everything, but semantics and definitions!
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ConstantineTG
Guest
But we’re not going to change our faith just to start a dialogue. That is why a lot of people decry false ecumenism. We won’t change our minds until the dialogue has happened and we are proven otherwise. We don’t want to lead our brethren in the faith down the wrong path.
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dzheremi
Guest
The belief that another church is heretical does not entail the belief that its adherents are likely damned. The two are not logically related. The RCC is indeed heretical from the point of view of the OO communion, but there is no belief that Catholics are therefore “damned” by virtue of being in the RCC.
As I believe I’ve written before, the only reason Orthodox are (or maybe I should say “ever should be”) in ecumenical talks with non-Orthodox is to lead the non-Orthodox to Orthodoxy. Not to make proclamations about others’ salvation, or discover or indulge the idea of “degrees of truth”, or anything else people have talked about in this thread.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
I believe a correct ecumenism would go to the issue(s) that divides and then back to the source texts/documents from which each party’s understanding derives. I think only in reexamining and studying the sources we have in common, especially the Bible, can we ever hope to overcome doctrinal differences. It’s important to keep talking. Eventually, if we (both sides) are persevering in their efforts, we will find that common ground of understanding. The truth will bring us back together again.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I’m not saying we shouldn’t talk. I’m saying that we shouldn’t pretend that both sides are acceptable before we even start talking. When we come to the table, there must be an honest acceptance that we do not agree on certain issues. Only if both sides can accept these realities can true dialogue proceed.
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Surnaturel
Guest
Here’s the problem. If you believe that RC sacraments aren’t valid or that we are not part of the Body of Christ then many of your hierarchy are in disagreement with you and seemingly are leading your Church ‘down the wrong path.’
Moreover, I would like to see dogmatic justification from EO which states that most RC are damned since that is what you seem to be arguing for as ‘part of your faith’ in relation to this thread.
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Surnaturel
Guest
I never said that one logically entailed the other. The post of mine which you quoted was in response to Constantine who seemed to imply that RCs are largely damned.
Right. The question in the OP, though, is what EOs generally tend to think about the salvation of non-EOs. It is a matter of interest to many people and it does affect ecumenical talks. If your Church leadership (majority of patriarchs) said that RC sacraments are invalid and/or inefficacious and that we are likely damned then I would have little interest in pursuing further discussion because, from my point of view, the theological maturity would too undeveloped and erroneous.
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Surnaturel
Guest
The sides already are talking. RC and EO theologians meet together on a yearly basis in North America and joint theological commissions have commenced as well as both of our hierarchy celebrating mass together.
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bobbyhillisabro
Guest
Yes, God can save any one hes wants, but he will only save those who follow Christ and do the will of his Father. But just saying he can save any body he wants didn’t answer the question of the OP.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
You are absolutely correct. We have to know exactly where and how we disagree. Then I think we need to go back and study the biblical sources for our beliefs looking not just to see how we are right, but looking to see with an open mind anything we may have missed. With this kind of openness on both sides, maybe there are other components of the issue that shed new light. Maybe there are deeper levels of understanding. Maybe we find that our disagreements are not as fundamental as we always thought. I am not speaking of anything in particular. We both believe that the scriptures hold the truth, therefore, we should be able to both find the same truth. But we have to stop taking at each other, and stop taking past each other. Do you agree?
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KnitNut
Guest
(emphasis mine) Are you referring to attending one another’s liturgies? Or actual concelebration? If the latter, would you mind citing specific instances?
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Surnaturel
Guest
I meant attended liturgy and received communion. Orthodox Metropolitan Nicolae Corneanu received the Eucharist from a Byzantine Catholic.
EP Bartholomew I allowed Italian Catholics to receive the Eucharist in 2002 at Ravenna.
orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ravenna.aspx
Archbishop of the Ukrainian Catholic Church played with the possibility that his church could be in full communion with Rome and Constantinople to which EP Bartholomew responded favorably.
catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=59186
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dzheremi
Guest
My memory for inter-EO goings on is not great, but I seem to remember reading that he was disciplined for this, or was going to and was forgiven but told to never do such a thing ever again (depending on the news write up that you believe). Suffice it to say that no Orthodox person (bishop or non) can do such a thing without at least risking excommunication. I’ve been told in no uncertain terms that I cannot commune with the local EO in N. California just because there is no OO church there (even though that’s precisely why the local Tewahedo go to the EO churches there), and that if I were to do so, I would need to confess immediately and would not be readmitted to communion without an appropriate period of penance. Both communions calling themselves Orthodox do tend to take such things rather seriously…
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