Orthodox communion does not draw the onus upon it

[Tantum_ergo]

That Catholic communion does.

In a thread about non-Catholics and communion, I asked this question which remains unanswered and perhaps deserves its own thread. . .

Why is it that some (not all) Protestants will roundly condemn Catholics for ‘not allowing nonCatholics to receive the Eucharist’, yet never say one word about the Orthodox who (so far as I am aware) do not permit non-Orthodox to partake of the Eucharist in their churches?

Is it that these Protestants don’t know that Catholics are not the **only 'big meanies" **with this understanding of the sacrament?

Is it that these Protestants don’t **care **about the Orthodox practice, whether through feeling that the Catholic Church is the ‘bigger gun’ and that if IT is ‘taken down’ the Orthodox will fall as well, or whether they don’t even think of the Orthodox at all?

Is it a combination of the above?

Or it is something else? Inquiring minds want to know!
Now believe me, I do not want to bring any trouble upon the Orthodox whatsoever. I have the highest respect for them. At the same time, I think that they have a ‘horse’ in the race, so to speak, and that their voices should be heard in unison with our Catholic voices, because I think it would be to the benefit of all groups, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant, to make it very clear that this issue is not a “Catholic v. Protestant” one. . .that it is a matter of Christian belief and practice in which many mistaken charges of the Protestants would be ‘defused’ by a greater knowledge of the Orthodox faith and a greater understanding would benefit all Christians.

So. . .

Let’s hear from you!

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

It’s because most Protestants have no idea the Orthodox Church even exists, or like to pretend they don’t exist. Most of the time when I tell people I’m Orthodox, their first response is, “You’re Jewish?!” One time I was listening to Todd Friel on Way of the Master Radio talking about the Reformation and the motives of the Reformers, and he said, “We’ll just forget about the Eastern Orthodox for now…” And don’t get me started on that ridiculous “1% Christian” number some Evangelical groups throw around about Russia - 1% is the amount of Evangelical/Charismatic Christians only. The Orthodox Christian population (of which at least 25% are sincere practicing Christians) is completely left out in that equation.

I have heard of isolated incidents where a person at an Orthodox Church was told they couldn’t take communion and responded with a hissy fit, so people do get mad. It’s just that Orthodoxy in America does not get the widespread coverage as Roman Catholicism, and popular history likes to make bad guys out of the Catholics.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

That’s pretty much what I had thought.

Again, I don’t want to let y’all in for ‘bashing’. Far from it. I pray daily for our reunification. The gifts and graces you brothers and sisters have are outstanding and your contributions to the Faith from icons to liturgy to theologians are unparalleled. How our Churches need each other, especially now.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Actually it’s quite amusing when I hear Protestants say that Orthodox are “cousins” or that Orthodoxy came out of Protestantism, even though Catholicism and Orthodoxy are closer related and much older than any Protestant sect. It’s also amusing when Protestants visit the church and say things like, “I hate Catholics! They venerate Mary!” and I can only go, “Well, so do we.”

 

[bpbasilphx]

And many Protestants think that Orthodox are just another kind of Catholic.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And many Protestants think that Orthodox are just another kind of Catholic.

I think many Protestants (and justly so) get upset at hearing non Protestants ‘lump them together’ by assuming that “all Protestants are sola Scripture” (they aren’t), or “all Protestants believe in a symbolic eucharist only” (they don’t). . .so I would think that they of all people would want to be aware of the truth regarding Catholics and Orthodox. That’s another reason I was confused that the topic seemed to be ignored.

 

[Ad_Gentes]

Why is it that some (not all) Protestants will roundly condemn Catholics for ‘not allowing nonCatholics to receive the Eucharist’, yet never say one word about the Orthodox who (so far as I am aware) do not permit non-Orthodox to partake of the Eucharist in their churches?

I think that, at least in the United States, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches are not as widely known as the Roman Catholic Church.

it that these Protestants don’t **care **about the Orthodox practice, whether through feeling that the Catholic Church is the ‘bigger gun’ and that if IT is ‘taken down’ the Orthodox will fall as well, or whether they don’t even think of the Orthodox at all?

To understand the underlining issue here, one must understand the reasons for the Protestant Reformation to begin with. The Protestant Reformation was a result of Catholics (starting with Martin Luther) who opposed what they considered false doctrines and corrupted Church practices of Roman Catholicism. For that reason, it is not surprising that some (not all) protestants have a general “anti-Catholic” attitude. While Protestants also disagree with many Orthodox believes, most just don’t have that generalized anti-Orthodox attitude. This, obviously, is not the only reason why many Protestants and non-Catholics may complain for not being able to partake of the Eucharist. A poor understanding on the Catholic belief surrounding the Eucharist and Holy Communion is probably a main cause of this.

On a separate note, I attended an Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy recently and, while I believe in the real presence of Jesus Christ in their Eucharist, I did not partake of Holy Communion out of respect since both our Churches are not in communion with each other.

 

[The_Pilgrim]

I think that, at least in the United States, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches are not as widely known as the Roman Catholic Church.

True. The parents of my daughter in law are evangelicals, and I love them to death! But they STILL – after three years – think I am Catholic.

Many of my friends from work, came to our wedding, and the Southern Baptists in the group (we live in Kentucky) definitely had that “deer in the headlights” look for the entire service!

 

[AJTheMan]

And don’t get me started on that ridiculous “1% Christian” number some Evangelical groups throw around about Russia - 1% is the amount of Evangelical/Charismatic Christians only. The Orthodox Christian population (of which at least 25% are sincere practicing Christians) is completely left out in that equation.

I’m associated (loosely) with an evangelical church who recently started mission trips to Mexico. If you don’t know, Mexico is like ~95% Christian. I didn’t dare say anything, though, because I know that Catholicism obviously doesn’t qualify in their circle.

Another funny thing, I was reading about how some evangelicals were traveling to the godless city of Rome. (watch for the sarcasm there)They were going to convert Roman Christians to Christianity. Apparently, this group thought that people in Rome were just pagans because they worshiped the saints or something.

Russia is the same, though I would have to say that a good bit of Russians are secular who keep the E.Orthodox title. (Blame the Soviets for that)

 

[Nine_Two]

Yeah, that’s evangelicals. I’m associated (loosely) with an evangelical church who recently started mission trips to Mexico. If you don’t know, Mexico is like ~95% Christian. I didn’t dare say anything, though, because I know that Catholicism obviously doesn’t qualify in their circle.

Another funny thing, I was reading about how some evangelicals were traveling to the godless city of Rome. (watch for the sarcasm there)They were going to convert Roman Christians to Christianity. Apparently, this group thought that people in Rome were just pagans because they worshiped the saints or something.

Russia is the same, though I would have to say that a good bit of Russians are secular who keep the E.Orthodox title. (Blame the Soviets for that)

I think that’s part of why they’re misguided, Mission trips aren’t necessarily for the purpose of converting anyone, but are primarily to help the less fortunate, and further the Church that way.

 

[Madaglan]

True. The parents of my daughter in law are evangelicals, and I love them to death! But they STILL – after three years – think I am Catholic.

Many of my friends from work, came to our wedding, and the Southern Baptists in the group (we live in Kentucky) definitely had that “deer in the headlights” look for the entire service!

:bigyikes:

wait, that’s more squirrel in the headlights.

 

[LilyM]

But are they ignorant that at least one Lutheran group (I think it’s LCMS) ALSO practices closed communion? Or is the distinct lack of round condemnation of this due to something other than ignorance?

 

[aspirant]

It’s because most Protestants have no idea the Orthodox Church even exists, or like to pretend they don’t exist. Most of the time when I tell people I’m Orthodox, their first response is, “You’re Jewish?!”

I think so too. And even when they do know the Orthodox exist, they tend to know even less about what Orthodox Christians believe than they do about Catholics.

 

[Nine_Two]

I think that about sums it up. Btw I’ve told the story here a couple of times of my aunt making this mistake and thinking my fiancee was Orthodox Jewish and then going on about the (now mostly vanished) Jewish comunity in Dublin for a good few minutes until we explained it. She couldn’t quite her head around it for a fair bit. When she saw an icon she thought the Orthodox were Catholic due to the Theotokos. It’s kind of hard work explaining the Orthodox Church to people who have never encountered it or heard much about it.

Be assured if the Orthodox faith grew large enough the same calumnies about Mary worship blah blah would all be thrown at them as are at us. You can begin to see some evidence of this in Ireland. The Orthodox are now the third largest Christian group there and you are beginning to see references to their unbiblical practises from some fundamentalist groups.

Actually BW has already shown me some interesting anti-Orthodox polemics by Protestants, it’s out there already. The low profile we have is quite nice to have, but it’ll never last if we keep growing.

 

[gmcbroom]

I believe the Orthodox communion doesn’t draw the same critism that the Catholic does has to do with the fact that
1-Some may be unaware of the Orthodox; which isn’t surprising considering that most don’t realize that there are actually 22 suri iurises in the Catholic church of which the Roman church is simply the largest and has the distinction of being the last See of Peter.
2-While the early schisms are what forged the Orthodox into being; they view the Catholic church as schismatic and state the reformation movement as their proof.

Thats the reason the the Protestant churches in the beginning resembled Catholic services with varing additions and substractions here and there ie the Ausburg confessions, or Book of Common prayer, ect. Thats also why there are similar yet different Bibles. I may be wrong but I don’t think so.

 

[Madaglan]

But are they ignorant that at least one Lutheran group (I think it’s LCMS) ALSO practices closed communion? Or is the distinct lack of round condemnation of this due to something other than ignorance?

Some Presbyterian groups too practice closed communion (known as “fencing the table”). It seems to be a minority practice amongst Protestants in the US today.

 

[Madaglan]

Does anyone know of some numbers on this? How many Orthodox parishes are in Ireland at present?

I’ve been told that many Polish are emigrating to Ireland as well. Does this include a significant number of Byzantine Christians?

 

[Hesychios]

2-While the early schisms are what forged the Orthodox into being; …

That should probably read: While the early schisms are what forged the modern Papacy into being …

But heck, I am Orthodox and you are Catholic, so I think that we should just agree to disagree

Thats the reason the the Protestant churches in the beginning resembled Catholic services with varing additions and substractions here and there ie the Ausburg confessions, or Book of Common prayer, ect. Thats also why there are similar yet different Bibles. I may be wrong but I don’t think so.

It is true that the Protestant churches are the daughters of the Latin Catholic church. This is readily apparent in the mainline Protestant churches, but not immediately apparent in the Baptist, Pentecostal and non-denominational churches.

Catholicism is what they know (or think they know) and this is the reason Latin Catholicism is vilified so much among them. To the extent that they identify Holy Orthodoxy as “non-Catholic” they may be initially more open to it, but to the extent that they identify Holy Orthodoxy as “Catholic” or i some cases “more Catholic than the Pope” they are likely to rail on against it.

… And many Protestants think that Orthodox are just another kind of Catholic.

Quite so. I suppose* especially *if they witness a liturgy.

In my opinion the ‘self-abasement’ (a better term eludes me at the moment) in veneration is usually much more evident in temple Orthodox/Eastern worship. The ornateness and “gloriosity” (my term) of the liturgy, vestments and architecture seems (at times) a bit more extreme as well. As **The Pilgrim **stated, one can witness that “deer in the headlights” look on some visitors faces, if not a look of total revulsion (sadly amusing ). I have seen this reaction among visitors to an Eastern Catholic parish as well.

I think (Mike’s unscientific opinion) that among the Protestants I have welcomed and met in the time I was greeting the Anglicans were the most open to the elaborateness and the veneration practices.

http://ocaphoto.oca.org/filetmp/2004/February/49/Image/DSC_0054.jpg

http://ocaphoto.oca.org/filetmp/2004/February/49/Image/DSC_0062.jpg

http://ocaphoto.oca.org/filetmp/2004/June/116/Image/DSC_0143.jpg

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

**OK… here goes!

Many Protestants suffer from a distinct identifiable case of what is known as “Romeaphobia”!

Anything that looks vaguely “Roman Catholic” is immediately suspect or shunned.

This is because, the whole protestant movement grew out of understandable objections to Roman Catholic teaching and practice of the Christian Faith - and Roman error has fuelled the protestant movement ever since the middle ages.

What is interesting to note, is that of all converts to the Eastern Orthodox Faith world wide since the year 2000, 70% self identify as “Protestant” - whilst 20% identify as “Catholic”.

Perhaps, the Roman Church has more to answer for than just the innovations they made after the last Ecumenical Council of the Unified Apostolic Church!**

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Actually BW has already shown me some interesting anti-Orthodox polemics by Protestants, it’s out there already.

Must be all the Dave Hunt articles on my blog.

OK… here goes!

Many Protestants suffer from a distinct identifiable case of what is known as “Romeaphobia”!

Anything that looks vaguely “Roman Catholic” is immediately suspect or shunned.

This is because, the whole protestant movement grew out of understandable objections to Roman Catholic teaching and practice of the Christian Faith - and Roman error has fuelled the protestant movement ever since the middle ages.

I often make the case that many Protestants see many traits of Roman Catholicism - veneration of saints, hierarchical leadership, the holy mysteries, etc - through “the lens of the Reformation,” and therefore they see them only as a 16th/17th century Reformer would have. The problem is that the Church that Martin Luther and John Calvin knew as well as their respective backgrounds affected their outlook on things. You have to put a historical context on such things.

Therefore, when you have a Protestant individual peering through their Reformation lenses, and you suddenly throw a third wheel (Orthodoxy) into the mix, all they can say is, “Does not compute.” Or, alternatively, “Whoa, these guys venerate the Virgin Mary and the saints, and their bishops seem kinda like Catholic bishops, so I’d better hate them too!”