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dcointin
Guest
You have a superb knowledge of canon law, and I always enjoy that contribution to these discussions!
- Status
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Vico
Guest
Sepp,
This is the source I mentioned in the earlier post:
“The general principle is that membership in a Church or ecclesial community is determined by the membership of the minister of baptism”.
Comparative Sacramental Discipline in the CCEO and CIC, p. 17
(this chapter by V. Rev. Richard Whetstone JCL and Robert Flummerfelt JCL)
Also see this link:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Mogila forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*Vico is right. I have a friend who entered an Eastern Catholic Church from Orthodoxy. But, because he had been baptized a Protestant in infancy, it was ruled that he was canonically Latin Rite – even though he’d never been in a Latin parish. *
Peter
This is the source I mentioned in the earlier post:
“The general principle is that membership in a Church or ecclesial community is determined by the membership of the minister of baptism”.
Comparative Sacramental Discipline in the CCEO and CIC, p. 17
(this chapter by V. Rev. Richard Whetstone JCL and Robert Flummerfelt JCL)
Also see this link:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Mogila forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*Vico is right. I have a friend who entered an Eastern Catholic Church from Orthodoxy. But, because he had been baptized a Protestant in infancy, it was ruled that he was canonically Latin Rite – even though he’d never been in a Latin parish. *
Peter
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Diak
Guest
In all of the cases I have dealt with that involved someone who was Orthodox, wanting to become Eastern Catholic but baptised Protestant prior to becoming Orthodox (four to be exact), “it was ruled” in every case that the person should enter the parallel church that they actually are worshipping in to promote continuity of particular liturgical tradition rather than enforce an infant baptismal rite very loosely parallel to the Latins (and in none of the cases the petitioner wanted to be Latin).
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Vico
Guest
I believe it. One thing to note is that the CCEO did not exist prior to 1990, although most of the norms did. There was a change in some areas.
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Frank_J
Guest
Hello Diak,
Got a question for you to answer and hope you could answer. I was raised RC up until 1975 when I left the Church and became a non-practicing RC. I join the Russian Orthodox Church and I have been since baptized in the ROCOR and I have been part of my Church and practicing my faith now over ten years now. How would the Catholic see me if I entered??? Would I become RC or EC if I joined?? I’m interest on see how the RC Church view me?? A Russian priest said that I would be forced to become RC and not EC. I didn’t like that answer; I am very much Eastern Christian and would find it repugnant that I would be forced to join something I didn’t want to be.
Can you answer my question???
Have a good day.
Got a question for you to answer and hope you could answer. I was raised RC up until 1975 when I left the Church and became a non-practicing RC. I join the Russian Orthodox Church and I have been since baptized in the ROCOR and I have been part of my Church and practicing my faith now over ten years now. How would the Catholic see me if I entered??? Would I become RC or EC if I joined?? I’m interest on see how the RC Church view me?? A Russian priest said that I would be forced to become RC and not EC. I didn’t like that answer; I am very much Eastern Christian and would find it repugnant that I would be forced to join something I didn’t want to be.
Can you answer my question???
Have a good day.
D
Diak
Guest
You absolutely would not be “forced” to become RC. If you desired to become Eastern Catholic, and your last and most consistent sacramental community was Eastern, it is only sensible that you should become Eastern.
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5Loaves
Guest
Frank J was baptized in the Latin (“Roman Catholic”) Church. Would he not be seen as enrolled in the Latin Catholic Church?
Since Catholics can be active parishioners in any Catholic Church-- Latin, Eastern or Oriental-- he could certainly choose to participate solely in an Eastern Catholic one which many Latin/Roman Catholics choose to do. Or, coming back to the Catholic Church from years in Orthodoxy I would think he could make an immediate request for a formal change in his status, if he were Latin due to his Latin baptism, to a specific Eastern Catholic Church. Such a change from Latin to EC is normally very simple… and it is unnecessary unless one wishes to seek holy orders or marriage in a Church other than the one in which one is formally enrolled. I wanted neither ordination nor marriage but I did choose to make the formal change in enrollment from the Latin Church to the Russian Greek Catholic Church and the approvals by the two relevant bishops were speedy and without question.
Had he been baptized as a Russian Greek Catholic, grown up in the Anglican Church, and then decided he wanted to return to the Catholic Church as a Latin Catholic having had no experience in an EC parish after his baptism and loving the Roman Rite, we know that would not be possible. He would return as a Russian Greek Catholic even though he might choose to never set foot in an Eastern Catholic parish and would spend all his time in a Latin parish receiving Eucharist solely in the Roman Rite. On paper he would be an EC, in practice Latin.
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Frank_J
Guest
Hello Diak,
Thank you for your remarks Deacon. If I remember you said in one of your old chats sometime ago, that you have work on people changing from Latin to Eastern, if I’m recall correctly? I feel you would have more experience in cases like mine or a person’s changing from Latin too Eastern.
5Loaves said that I would revert to Latin and not Eastern. I would never revert if forced back in something I don’t want, or care to do. I don’t trust Latin Bishops to start and would be fearful if they were not to allow me to move into the proper rite for me. If any immediate request for a formal change into the Eastern Catholic status would have to be made before I would make a move like that to revert. Sorry I just don’t trust Latin bishops if what 5Loaves said were true.
I would be interest in see what other people in this chatroom think??
Have a good night.
Frank J
Thank you for your remarks Deacon. If I remember you said in one of your old chats sometime ago, that you have work on people changing from Latin to Eastern, if I’m recall correctly? I feel you would have more experience in cases like mine or a person’s changing from Latin too Eastern.
5Loaves said that I would revert to Latin and not Eastern. I would never revert if forced back in something I don’t want, or care to do. I don’t trust Latin Bishops to start and would be fearful if they were not to allow me to move into the proper rite for me. If any immediate request for a formal change into the Eastern Catholic status would have to be made before I would make a move like that to revert. Sorry I just don’t trust Latin bishops if what 5Loaves said were true.
I would be interest in see what other people in this chatroom think??
Have a good night.
Frank J
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Diakonia
Guest
I agree wholeheartedly with what has been said by Diak.
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Diak
Guest
Anyone who is actively participating sacramentally in an Orthodox church, who has been doing that for an extended period of time, was formally accepted (either by creed, chrismation, or whatever the particular Orthodox jurisdiction practices) and professes to be Orthodox, is Orthodox. That is simply reality. Frank J mentions he was baptized in the ROCOR (or rebaptized as the case may be). All sacramental arguments about rebaptizing aside, Frank J elected to be fully initated in a ROCOR parish and is absolutely ROCOR.
When any Orthodox fully initiated in an Orthodox church elects of his or her own volition to worship in a Catholic church, of course their first choice is usually to continue to practice that sacramental continuity as an Eastern Catholic and by all means if that is what is best for the soul (which of course, is the highest “law”), then that is precisely what should be done.
It is absolutely nonsensical to tell someone “yes, you can go to this church, but first you have to wait until some superfluous paperwork is generated which may take months to years to get a rescript before you can really join this church” when that person is fully initiated and participating in a similar liturgical and sacramental tradition.
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ciero
Guest
Amen! Amen! Amen!!!
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Frank_J
Guest
Hello Diak,
Thank you your statment on my behalf, I agree with you 100%.
God bless.
Frank J.
Thank you your statment on my behalf, I agree with you 100%.
God bless.
Frank J.
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5Loaves
Guest
I agree completely, and said nothing different.
I’m not advocating anything other than that OP should if s/he chooses to return to the Catholic Church, participate in an EC parish. I simply said that having been baptized in the Latin Church, and the Catholic Church not recognizing “re-baptism”, * from my experience with Canon Law CIC and CCEO* it seems inconsistent that s/he would be inscribed into an EC Church sui iuris. I am only going by what is my experience with the canons of the Church, many of which I don’t like, and what has come up here with various scenarios.
If you are correct that Canon Law allows for immediate enrollment in an EC Church sui iuris of a person baptized in the Latin Church, who has lived fully as Orthodox, then returns to the Catholic Church of their baptism I’d be* thrilled* to learn that.
As far as changing Churches sui iuris my change from Latin to Russian Greek Catholic took almost no time, a letter from my EC priest, a letter from the Bishop whose Church sui iuris I was leaving and a letter from the Bishop whose Church sui iuris I was entering, and a letter sent to the parish where I came into the Latin Church so my new status could be recorded on my Confirmation certificate (for a Baptized Catholic, on the baptismal record). There was definitely no foot dragging from either bishop.
Transfers from an EC Church to the Latin Church are quite another story since that change, leaving the East, is much discouraged.
Until recently by far the majority of people in my EC parish who are there every week and constitute the parish are in fact Latin Catholics, and have never chosen to change their Church sui iuris. There is certainly no difference in the status of people in the parish. Recently we’ve had a number of young cradle Byzantine and Orthodox begin to come on a regular basis
so the % is shifting a little, but still isn’t even 50/50 I think.- Status