Orthodox critique of imaginative prayer

[JaredR]

How would you defend the use of imagination in prayer from Eastern Orthodox critics? It is true that many of the Desert Fathers forbade the use of mental imagery during prayer, but we have Western saints who taught that it is good for beginners and intermediates to use their imaginations in prayer.

For those more familiar with their writings, did saints like St. Ignatius offer a justification of their methods?

 

[Sebrina]

I was interested in what you posted, about the use of imaginative prayer as opposed to the Eastern Orthodox method of prayer. But since I’m so new to prayer, I can’t imagine any other way of it. So… how do the Eastern Orthodox pray as opposed to “our” way of praying?

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

How would you defend the use of imagination in prayer from Eastern Orthodox critics? It is true that many of the Desert Fathers forbade the use of mental imagery during prayer, but we have Western saints who taught that it is good for beginners and intermediates to use their imaginations in prayer.

How do you defend *prohibiting *the use of imagination in prayer? I’m no newbie to Catholicism, though I’m not familiar with Eastern Orthodox traditions. I’m, for lack of a better word, flummoxed. If I were denied my imagination, I would have no relationship with God at all.

 

[poptown]

If imagination is not good, why let images fill the Church? Haha!

 

[ConstantineTG]

How would you defend the use of imagination in prayer from Eastern Orthodox critics? It is true that many of the Desert Fathers forbade the use of mental imagery during prayer, but we have Western saints who taught that it is good for beginners and intermediates to use their imaginations in prayer.

For those more familiar with their writings, did saints like St. Ignatius offer a justification of their methods?

You have to understand the entire concept before you critique. I think at this point your worry stems from a very high level understanding of the Eastern concept of prayer.

 

[WoundedIcon]

Basically you’re not supposed to pray TO self-made images, 1) because your understanding is flawed and you will inevitably create a warped image of God and 2) because it distracts from direct/contemplative knowledge of God Himself. What St. Ignatius and the like acknowledge is that you can imagine scenes from the Bible and such. But remember, even western mystics advise as well that at higher levels of prayer you stop using the imagination.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Basically you’re not supposed to pray TO self-made images, 1) because your understanding is flawed and you will inevitably create a warped image of God and 2) because it distracts from direct/contemplative knowledge of God Himself. What St. Ignatius and the like acknowledge is that you can imagine scenes from the Bible and such. But remember, even western mystics advise as well that at higher levels of prayer you stop using the imagination.

I thought I couldn’t condense the explanation but you did it nicely

 

[Sirach2]

We are humans, not angels, and we have been created with body, mind (imagination, memory, understanding, will) and spirit. We owe a lot to St. Teresa of Jesus, whose feast we celebrate today, for her writings on prayer. She taught us to use our mental faculties to the extent we are capable, until such time as God suspends them in higher forms of prayer. In fact, she wrote that she owes her deep conversion to imagining Jesus being scourged at the pillar. It was the springboard to her becoming the Saint and Doctor we know today.

For those who are unable to use the imagination, she advised vocal prayer, but stressed that it be said from the heart, and not by rote. Having little ability to meditate, she made use of books to help her form the colloquy with Our Lord.

St. Teresa, pray for us – help us to follow in your footsteps!

 

[ConstantineTG]

We are humans, not angels, and we have been created with body, mind (imagination, memory, understanding, will) and spirit. We owe a lot to St. Teresa of Jesus, whose feast we celebrate today, for her writings on prayer. She taught us to use our mental faculties to the extent we are capable, until such time as God suspends them in higher forms of prayer. In fact, she wrote that she owes her deep conversion to imagining Jesus being scourged at the pillar. It was the springboard to her becoming the Saint and Doctor we know today.

For those who are unable to use the imagination, she advised vocal prayer, but stressed that it be said from the heart, and not by rote. Having little ability to meditate, she made use of books to help her form the colloquy with Our Lord.

St. Teresa, pray for us – help us to follow in your footsteps!

We need to read into hesychasm to understand the Eastern POV on prayer.

 

[Ubenedictus]

We are humans, not angels, and we have been created with body, mind (imagination, memory, understanding, will) and spirit. We owe a lot to St. Teresa of Jesus, whose feast we celebrate today, for her writings on prayer. She taught us to use our mental faculties to the extent we are capable, until such time as God suspends them in higher forms of prayer. In fact, she wrote that she owes her deep conversion to imagining Jesus being scourged at the pillar. It was the springboard to her becoming the Saint and Doctor we know today.

For those who are unable to use the imagination, she advised vocal prayer, but stressed that it be said from the heart, and not by rote. Having little ability to meditate, she made use of books to help her form the colloquy with Our Lord.

St. Teresa, pray for us – help us to follow in your footsteps!

the explanation given by woundedicon i believe should serve as a guide for all using this form of prayer. It give me joy that st therese was imagining the scourging at the pillar, the scriptures help guide such prayer. But if it goes futher into areas without guides our imagination may create, advice and oblige to to make our own image of God and make that ‘god’ speak.
It is very profitable when guided, when not, it has to ability to create an illusion.

 

[Sirach2]

the explanation given by woundedicon i believe should serve as a guide for all using this form of prayer. It give me joy that st therese was imagining the scourging at the pillar, the scriptures help guide such prayer. But if it goes futher into areas without guides our imagination may create, advice and oblige to tomake our own image of God and make that ‘god’ speak.
It is very profitable when guided, when not,** it has to ability to create an illusion**.

Whoa, you lost me completely. No saints’ writings have ever stated that we can “make our own image of God and make that ‘god’ speak.” I’m not sure what kind of spirituality you are adovcating, but I’ll stick with the Doctors of the Church.

 

[Sirach2]

We need to read into hesychasm to understand the Eastern POV on prayer.

Hi Constantine,

My post was simply responding to Jared’s point: “but we have Western saints who taught that it is good for beginners and intermediates to use their imaginations in prayer.”

I really do not feel drawn to understand hesychasm.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hi Constantine,

My post was simply responding to Jared’s point: “but we have Western saints who taught that it is good for beginners and intermediates to use their imaginations in prayer.”

I really do not feel drawn to understand hesychasm.

If you are going to critique the Eastern POV then yes, you need to understand hesychasm.

 

[Sirach2]

Constantine, I’m not going to critique the Eastern POV. Where did you get the idea I intended to critique it? I am merely responding to Jared’s post, as I said before. It is just to reaffirm that in WESTERN spirituality, the use of the imagination has been highly recommended by our saints.

From St. Teresa’s Way of Perfection, Chapter 26:

** Imagine** that this Lord Himself is at your side and see how lovingly and how humbly He is teaching you—and, believe me, you should stay with so good a Friend for as long as you can before you leave Him. If you become accustomed to having Him at your side, and if He sees that you love Him to be there and are always trying to please Him, you will never be able, as we put it, to send Him away, nor will He ever fail you. He will help you in all your trials and you will have Him everywhere. Do you think it is a small thing to have such a Friend as that beside you?

O sisters, those of you whose minds cannot reason for long or whose thoughts cannot dwell upon God but are constantly wandering must at all costs form this habit. I know quite well that you are capable of it—for many years I endured this trial of being unable to concentrate on one subject, and a very sore trial it is. But I know the Lord does not leave us so devoid of help that if we approach Him humbly and ask Him to be with us He will not grant our request.

 

[Sirach2]

Here is one more saint who strongly advocates the use of the imagination.

But the mental quality of thought that drove his spiritual life was his remarkable imagination. His imagination played a central role in his conversion. Through his many years of directing others he discovered how useful the imagination could be in fostering a deeper relationship with God. Imaginative prayer is recognized as one of the hallmarks of Ignatian spirituality.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Constantine, I’m not going to critique the Eastern POV. Where did you get the idea I intended to critique it? I am merely responding to Jared’s post, as I said before. It is just to reaffirm that in WESTERN spirituality, the use of the imagination has been highly recommended by our saints.

The thread isn’t about reaffirming Western belief on imaginative prayer. It is about responding to the Orthodox view on imaginative prayer. So your response would be a response to the Orthodox view.

 

[Sirach2]

The thread isn’t about reaffirming Western belief on imaginative prayer. It is about responding to the Orthodox view on imaginative prayer. So your response would be a response to the Orthodox view.

Okay. I hear you. But this is where I was coming from:

How would you defend the use of imagination in prayer from Eastern Orthodox critics?

Just call me … defensive.

Jared is Western spirituality and belongs to another forum where Eastern members are permitted to post within the Western forum. It is my understanding that he is somewhat unsure how to defend what he believes is his personal call to our prayer form.

Be our guest, please and defend your position.

 

[Sirach2]

1. because it distracts from direct/contemplative knowledge of God Himself.

At the age of ten, we are not mature enough to obtrain a driver’s license. In the beginning stages of prayer, it is not only foolhardy, but dangerous to suspend the mind trying to put oneself in a state of contemplation. It was denounced by St. Teresa as “absorption” in which the ego strives to obtain what is not proper for its development.

But remember, even western mystics advise as well that at higher levels of prayer you stop using the imagination.

In higher realms of prayer, God suspends the imagination with the gift of infused prayer - a gift that we have no part in procuring for ourselves. However, we may ‘acquire’ the habit of recollection, but to stop the imagination is not proper for many early stages of prayer development. I would add that it is not even proper to higher forms of prayer, for we frequently must help ourselves with the aid of our faculties.

 

[Sirach2]

Hi Jared,

From my studies in Carmel, I remembered this chapter from St. Teresa’s Life that explains the importance of using the imagination and gives some cautions regarding false contemplation. I’ll just quote a couple of important points, but you may read the full chapter and her teachings here.

1. There is one thing I should like to say—I think it important: and if you, my father, approve, it will serve for a lesson that possibly may be necessary; for in some books on prayer the writers say that the soul, though it cannot in its own strength attain to this state [she means contemplation]—because it is altogether a supernatural work wrought in it by our Lord,—may nevertheless succeed, by lifting up the spirit above all created things, and raising it upwards in humility, after some years spent in a purgative life, and advancing in the illuminative… And they advise us much to withdraw from all bodily imagination, and draw near to the contemplation of the Divinity;* for they say that those who have advanced so far would be embarrassed or hindered in their way to the highest contemplation,** if they regarded even the Sacred Humanity itself. [or any other use of the imagination]

But that we should carefully and laboriously accustom ourselves not to strive with all our might to have always—and please God it be always!—the most Sacred Humanity before our eyes,—this, I say, is what seems to me not to be right: **it is making the soul, as they say, to walk in the air; for it has nothing to rest on, how full soever of God it may think itself to be. **

1. I believe myself that if a soul makes any efforts of its own to further itself in the way of the prayer of union, and though it may seem to make immediate progress,** it will quickly fall back, because the foundations were not duly laid.**
2. There are also some whom God leads at once by the highest way; these think that others might advance in the same manner—quiet the understanding, and make bodily objects none of their means; but these people will remain dry as a stick. Others, also, there are who, having for a moment attained to the prayer of quiet, think forthwith that, as they have had the one, so they may have the other. **These instead of advancing, go back, as I said before. **
   We realize that God raised up St. Teresa, bestowing many mystical graces of every sort upon her, for the mission of founding her convents, but more importantly, to instruct the faithful throughout many centuries on the stages of prayer. Hence, her writings were elevated to the status of Doctor. We cannot possibly go wrong following her, and thanking God for this wonderful gift of her teachings.

I hope you are now able to discern the importance of using the imagination, and that perhaps you will be able to refute some of the posters in your other website.

 

[JaredR]

Sirach, that passage from St. Teresa is wonderful. That’s the kind of information I was hoping to find. Thank you.

I’m actually not needing to respond to anyone in particular. I just occasionally come across this argument in Internet searches that imagination leads to spiritual delusion.