Orthodox- do you find the argument about Orthodoxy and conservatism to be true?

[wigglytug]

I don’t think that is what the article is asserting.

What I see it saying is that the mindset that many American conservatives have lead them to Orthodoxy. In other words, it’s not political issues like gun control or gay marriage that lead these conservatives to Orthodoxy, but a mindset. Conservatives tend to reverence tradition, stability, and rationalism. And because the Orthodox Church has essentially been unchanged since the founding of the Church, and it has a hierarchy and a structure that preserves its traditions, it attracts many conservatives to its theology. Much like many (as the article states) were previously influenced by or attracted to Catholicism (pre-Vatican II).

So it’s not a convergence on political issues, it’s a convergence in mindset.

but Orthodox theology is best described as mystical

 

[dvdjs]

Perhaps I am misreading it. Your post seemed to be implying that most of those who convert did so without understanding what they were doing.

I think that people who change affiliations understand exactly what they are doing. I am not sure what you are unclear about/

 

[Nine_Two]

I think that people who change affiliations understand exactly what they are doing. I am not sure what you are unclear about/

Not on the outset, but yes, when they actually do it, of course they do. Otherwise it would be considered a forced conversion. I’m not seeing your point.

 

[Tobias2]

**I dunno.

I think the article sees the Orthodox as being more “neutrally” conservative than either evangelicals who at times seem a wing of the GOP or Catholics who likewise seem a wing, or have till recently, of the Democratic Party.

The Orthodox steer a more non-partisan course as I see it.**

 

[dvdjs]

I think the article sees the Orthodox as being more “neutrally” conservative than either evangelicals who at times seem a wing of the GOP or Catholics who likewise seem a wing, or have till recently, of the Democratic Party.

The Orthodox steer a more non-partisan course as I see it.

Looking back till recently, Orthodoxy in the US was largely cited in the northeastern/great lakes and was Democratic - very strongly among the Slavs. I am less certain about the political leanings of the Greeks or Syrian Orthodox, but they certainly were strongly Democratic in my hometown in PA. As in the CC, these affiliations are less strong then they were years ago, for pretty much the same reasons, but I suspect that the voting patterns in those areas still substantially favor Democrats. The recent converts to EOCs seem to have a more conservative and Republican bent; the churches are growing most in the south and west, and deep midwest.

There is an interesting interplay in EOCs among these groups - a hint about which is the manner in which Mr. Dreher doesn’t have mush to say about the leanings of the old guard who still comprise a large fraction, perhaps a majority, of his church. There are, linked to this interplay, differing views on the proper political profile of the church. This difference has led to some contention. You can get sense of this dynamic on early posts on the Monomakhos blog, and other blogs cited therein.

 

[Nine_Two]

That is similar to my experience. Cradle Orthodox tend to be more open to political liberalism. My parish even had a member run for the local socialist party here last election.

I don’t think there is an issue when it comes to which political party people support, within reason (The Communist Party or some equivalent to the NSDAP are certainly against the tenets of the faith). But among converts you’re more likely to get people with a conservative worldview simply because the strong emphasis on tradition, legitimacy, and continuity appeal to them.

 

[Hesychios]

That is similar to my experience. Cradle Orthodox tend to be more open to political liberalism. My parish even had a member run for the local socialist party here last election. It can be like two pieces of a jigsaw puzzle that almost fit, but really don’t …

I don’t think there is an issue when it comes to which political party people support, within reason (The Communist Party or some equivalent to the NSDAP are certainly against the tenets of the faith). But among converts you’re more likely to get people with a conservative worldview simply because the strong emphasis on tradition, legitimacy, and continuity appeal to them.

It’s complicated, and hard to generalize, but the problem is that Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy are worldwide phenomena while USA politics is nothing if it isn’t parochial.

To take the RC church as an example first, there is what is known as Catholic Social teaching, which most American Roman Catholics have not read about and some are barely aware of. Then there have been very public positions of the Pope which opposed right-wing American foreign policy. Catholics around the world simply do not see things exactly like American Roman Catholics do. The ‘Worker Priest’ movement and such activists as Dorothy Day (whom I think may be a saint) do not make a lot of sense to modern American Roman Catholics, who might see a ‘dangerous liberalism’ in all that kind of stuff. The Papacy publicly and vehemently opposing the USA attack of Iraq is another such case that baffled conservative Roman Catholics at the time the drama was unfolding.

One can see something similar in Holy Orthodoxy. Many Orthodox around the world do see global warming as a serious threat placing stewardship of the earth at a high priority (patriarch Bartholomew is known as ‘The Green Patriarch’), Palestinian Arab concerns are addressed with more sympathy and interest, and the welfare of economic refugees and migrants is a matter of great concern. For American political conservatives denying Global Warming is almost de rigueur for anyone who expects to have their credentials taken seriously and those other issues look like tree-hugging and perhaps sappy socialist-like liberalism.

In fact the Roman Catholic church and Holy Orthodoxy are very similar in Social Teaching and outlook about many issues. These churches are definitely not ‘the Republican Party at Prayer’ (nor ‘the Democratic Party at Prayer’) but will work with any political and religious group where the common goal can be advanced.

I think that what our brother FabiusMaximus wrote is probably true, " it’s not a convergence on political issues, it’s a convergence in mindset" which allows conservative Americans to take a serious look at Orthodoxy for the first time.

For their part, our shepherds are not there to tell us what we want to hear, but what we need to hear.

 

[dzheremi]

Since my particular church is not essentially American in its outlook as the RC in America is, nor possessing an American reflection of itself a la Orthodox Church in America for the EO, I find it very hard to relate to this article. Maybe such impulses drive some interest or conversions, but the church is not primarily or even secondarily a political animal, nor does it draw its vitality from this or that American political sector. Such things are completely outside of our way of being Christian. Some of the Desert Fathers and Mothers even wrote against the idea of Christian politics or Christian political leadership, and not without reason. We may not be in the era of Diocletian anymore, but the political situation in which the faithful find themselves in America can be no less dangerous, given the use and abuse of God in American politics. We are happy to pray for the leaders of the land, as has long been the tradition in our church (it is in the liturgy of St. Basil, anyway, to pray for the leader of the land), but this does not map neatly onto any one political position. There was a nice young Ethiopian woman who used to live in Albuquerque and pray at our church and be with us in all things, but openly supported President Obama, much to the chagrin of most of the rest of the politically conscious laity, leading to many arguments over the agape meal. Yet in the practice of the faith and the understanding of it, she was the same as everyone else (Tewahedo and Copts being especially close for historical and cultural reasons).

 

[Nine_Two]

It’s complicated, and hard to generalize, but the problem is that Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy are worldwide phenomena while USA politics is nothing if it isn’t parochial.

To take the RC church as an example first, there is what is known as Catholic Social teaching, which most American Roman Catholics have not read about and some are barely aware of. Then there have been very public positions of the Pope which opposed right-wing American foreign policy. Catholics around the world simply do not see things exactly like American Roman Catholics do. The ‘Worker Priest’ movement and such activists as Dorothy Day (whom I think may be a saint) do not make a lot of sense to modern American Roman Catholics, who might see a ‘dangerous liberalism’ in all that kind of stuff. The Papacy publicly and vehemently opposing the USA attack of Iraq is another such case that baffled conservative Roman Catholics at the time the drama was unfolding.

One can see something similar in Holy Orthodoxy. Many Orthodox around the world do see global warming as a serious threat placing stewardship of the earth at a high priority (patriarch Bartholomew is known as ‘The Green Patriarch’), Palestinian Arab concerns are addressed with more sympathy and interest, and the welfare of economic refugees and migrants is a matter of great concern. For American political conservatives denying Global Warming is almost de rigueur for anyone who expects to have their credentials taken seriously and those other issues look like tree-hugging and perhaps sappy socialist-like liberalism.

In fact the Roman Catholic church and Holy Orthodoxy are very similar in Social Teaching and outlook about many issues. These churches are definitely not ‘the Republican Party at Prayer’ (nor ‘the Democratic Party at Prayer’) but will work with any political and religious group where the common goal can be advanced.

I think that what our brother FabiusMaximus wrote is probably true, " it’s not a convergence on political issues, it’s a convergence in mindset" which allows conservative Americans to take a serious look at Orthodoxy for the first time.

For their part, our shepherds are not there to tell us what we want to hear, but what we need to hear.

I absolutely agree. The Conservative mindset is attracted to Holy Orthodoxy due to values such as tradition and stability.

But I wouldn’t say that I’m applying it to US politics. I don’t think Republicans are necessarily attracted to what the Church has, nor that Democrats are put off by it, rather it is simply the conservative mindset (neo-liberalism if you want the technical, and traditional term for the movement) which is attracted to it.

For myself, the Church has made me considerably more liberal - but I continue to value those things that attracted me to it in the first place, and those things which are completely lacking from those forms of Protestantism most associated with Republicanism in US politics - namely tradition and stability.

 

[Tobias2]

Looking back till recently, Orthodoxy in the US was largely cited in the northeastern/great lakes and was Democratic - very strongly among the Slavs. I am less certain about the political leanings of the Greeks or Syrian Orthodox, but they certainly were strongly Democratic in my hometown in PA. As in the CC, these affiliations are less strong then they were years ago, for pretty much the same reasons, but I suspect that the voting patterns in those areas still substantially favor Democrats. The recent converts to EOCs seem to have a more conservative and Republican bent; the churches are growing most in the south and west, and deep midwest.

There is an interesting interplay in EOCs among these groups - a hint about which is the manner in which Mr. Dreher doesn’t have mush to say about the leanings of the old guard who still comprise a large fraction, perhaps a majority, of his church. There are, linked to this interplay, differing views on the proper political profile of the church. This difference has led to some contention. You can get sense of this dynamic on early posts on the Monomakhos blog, and other blogs cited therein.

I’ve heard there is an interplay among Orthodox groups.

So with the Antiochean Orthodox church I suspect you’d find a more conservative base than with the OCA.

The Antiochean church draws a lot of young converts and many former evangelicals. I’m told their worship is in some way different from say an OCA church. I think there is a large charismatic influence due to the influx of evangelicals.

 

[Tobias2]

I was unable to update my post.

Anyway, the proper spelling is **Antiochian **Orthodox church.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I’ve heard there is an interplay among Orthodox groups.

So with the Antiochean Orthodox church I suspect you’d find a more conservative base than with the OCA.

The Antiochean church draws a lot of young converts and many former evangelicals. I’m told their worship is in some way different from say an OCA church. I think there is a large charismatic influence due to the influx of evangelicals.

The differences between the rubrics are because the Antiochians are a Middle Eastern Church and not a slavic influenced Church like the OCA. People are asked if they have abandoned their former heresies before entering the Church, not encouraged perpetuate them. Go watch a typical Antiochian liturgy (likethis other one) with your own eyes and see if you are able to make that same claim that the Antiochians are influenced by charismatics afterwards. I would be surprised if you would be able to do so.

 

[dvdjs]

I’ve heard there is an interplay among Orthodox groups.

So with the Antiochean Orthodox church I suspect you’d find a more conservative base than with the OCA.

The Antiochean church draws a lot of young converts and many former evangelicals. I’m told their worship is in some way different from say an OCA church. I think there is a large charismatic influence due to the influx of evangelicals.

The interplay between jurisdictions in the US is complicated by the overlap of territories, the complications of the immigration, ethnicity and assimilation, and the particulars of the history of each jurisdiction.

I don’t know what you would call the “base” in the AOC the cradle middle eastern ethnics or the converts from the Evangelical Orthodox church. I suspect that the latter are much more red state and politically conservative, and the former much more blue state and politically liberal. A very similar situation applies in the OCA. I think a bolus addition of converts is having interesting effects in both jurisdictions. If you read Dreher’s secret blog, OCAtruth, you can get an idea of some of the problems. It’s of course hard to tell how this will all work out.

 

[dvdjs]

. People are asked if they have abandoned their former heresies before entering the Church, not encouraged perpetuate them.

I suppose that some are, but I think that the real point is that they may not abandon the mindset that brought them in. This situation relates to what I was talking about on another thread - not a conversion of mindset with compunction, humility, and repentence, but a validation of pre-existing, fixed ideas. It is interesting to observe whether an deep Orthodox mindset will overtake these American conservatives, or whether they will be working to rehape the EOCs inthier American image. So far it;s mainly the latter.

Go watch a typical Antiochian liturgy (likethis other one) .

How is this typical? What is typical?

 

[jwinch2]

If you read Dreher’s secret blog, OCAtruth, you can get an idea of some of the problems. It’s of course hard to tell how this will all work out.

I had never heard of this until now. What a mess!

 

[dvdjs]

I had never heard of this until now. What a mess!

Actually more a tempest in a teapot, I think. But the lines were drawn.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I suppose that some are, but I think that the real point is that they may not abandon the mindset that brought them in. This situation relates to what I was talking about on another thread - not a conversion of mindset with compunction, humility, and repentence, but a validation of pre-existing, fixed ideas. It is interesting to observe whether an deep Orthodox mindset will overtake these American conservatives, or whether they will be working to rehape the EOCs inthier American image. So far it;s mainly the latter.

You are not qualified to make that judgment. You write much on the need for humility but then turn around and judge your neighbors, saying that they lack humility, compunction and repentance. Last I checked, you are not capable of reading the hearts of others. It would probably be best if you were to cease this senseless line of attack before it brings unnecessary harm either upon your neighbor or yourself.

How is this typical? What is typical?

Now you are just engaging in disputatious philosophical skepticism. I already know where this misleading type of question goes, and I will not play this game.

 

[Nine_Two]

I suppose that some are, but I think that the real point is that they may not abandon the mindset that brought them in. This situation relates to what I was talking about on another thread - not a conversion of mindset with compunction, humility, and repentence, but a validation of pre-existing, fixed ideas. It is interesting to observe whether an deep Orthodox mindset will overtake these American conservatives, or whether they will be working to rehape the EOCs inthier American image. So far it;s mainly the latter.

From what do you draw this deep insight into the hearts and minds of others?

Are you suggesting that the natural Orthodox mindset in American liberalism?

 

[dzheremi]

When did this thread become about indulging dvdjs’ stupid and predictable attempts at mudslinging and special pleading? (As though people who are actually Orthodox can’t tell what a typical Orthodox liturgy is like, or that there are some unsubstantiated exceptions to converts having to renounce their former heresies, etc.)

 

[dvdjs]

You are not qualified to make that judgment. You write much on the need for humility but then turn around and judge your neighbors, saying that they lack humility, compunction and repentance. Last I checked, you are not capable of reading the hearts of others. It would probably be best if you were to cease this senseless line of attack before it brings unnecessary harm either upon your neighbor or yourself.

Thanks for your recommendations which are not without merit, but a little off topic. The thread, starting with Dreher’s blog and including the comments of several others in the thread, is about the mindset of some entering Orthodoxy. My comments are about the peculiarity about that idea in the context of “conversion”, informed by Newman’s remarks about conversion that I had quoted earlier on this thread. The observation is not directed at any individual, as, of course, I cannot read hearts of individuals. I can, however, read what others have posted here, and I think that the observation, in this context, is not without merit: something to think about when reading Dreher’s article.

Now you are just engaging in disputatious philosophical skepticism. I already know where this misleading type of question goes, and I will not play this game.

To make the point more clearly: a poster made some observations about Antiochian practices, influenced by the group conversion of Evangelicals in the US. You responded with a video from a parish in another country and culture without that history. I have a bit of experience with both old Syrian Orthodox parishes and people who came to Orthodoxy from the Evangelical group. think that my question is fair.