Orthodox "Eucharistic Ecclesiology" Questions

[Rohzek]

Thanks Rohzek,

Is there an Orthodox consensus as to whether the bread and wine actually become the Body and Blood of Christ in the Catholic Church? I mean, do the Orthodox believe Catholics have a valid episcopate, priesthood, and Eucharist?

Thanks

Pat

Depends upon who you ask. I converted from Catholicism to Orthodoxy, and my baptism was regarded as valid. Some Orthodox try to say the Eucharist in a Catholic service isn’t valid because of the absence of a specific prayer (I forget its name actually), or because they regard Catholics as heretics. According to them, if you’re a heretic, somehow you are devoid of grace. I disagree with their logic, and find it to be unsupportable.

Whenever I attend a Catholic service I still take communion there. I’m told that I shouldn’t, but I think it to be the same. The wine in American Catholic services is better anyways.

In short, there isn’t a consensus among all the various churches that make up the Orthodox Church. But at least according to what you’ve listed, there seems to be consensus in some of the autocephalous churches.

 

[Keeperer]

Depends upon who you ask. I converted from Catholicism to Orthodoxy, and my baptism was regarded as valid. Some Orthodox try to say the Eucharist in a Catholic service isn’t valid because of the absence of a specific prayer (I forget its name actually), or because they regard Catholics as heretics. According to them, if you’re a heretic, somehow you are devoid of grace. I disagree with their logic, and find it to be unsupportable.

Whenever I attend a Catholic service I still take communion there. I’m told that I shouldn’t, but I think it to be the same. The wine in American Catholic services is better anyways.

In short, there isn’t a consensus among all the various churches that make up the Orthodox Church. But at least according to what you’ve listed, there seems to be consensus in some of the autocephalous churches.

Dude, does your Orthodox bishop now you commune outside the Orthodox Church? And does this Roman-Catholic priest know that you left Catholicism when he lets you commune?

Penalties for such acts are very severe.

 

[Rohzek]

Dude, does your Orthodox bishop now you commune outside the Orthodox Church? And does this Roman-Catholic priest know that you left Catholicism when he lets you commune?

Penalties for such acts are very severe.

Oh please. It was at my home parish where I was baptized. Orthodox and Catholics have essentially the same views on the Eucharist. During my conversion process to Orthodoxy, my Catholic priest still knowingly performed reconciliation and gave me communion. When I am unable to attend an Orthodox Church, I attend a Catholic Church. I’m not going to abstain from the sacraments just for the sake of some formality. I did that for over a year and a half during my conversion process after I moved away. It sucked. Never again.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

Thanks Rohzek,

Is there an Orthodox consensus as to whether the bread and wine actually become the Body and Blood of Christ in the Catholic Church? I mean, do the Orthodox believe Catholics have a valid episcopate, priesthood, and Eucharist?

Thanks

Pat

I do not believe there is such a consensus, Pat. The Orthodox position is usually articulated as “We know that grace is in the Orthodox Church but we don’t know where it isn’t”. So it keeps the question open. I personally believe that the Roman Catholic church has a valid episcopate, priesthood and Eucharist.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Sacraments performed outside of the Orthodox Church are not valid in themselves without any regard to their relation to the Church. They are like unbaked clay vessels, which only by way of being fired can be said to be ceramics. Lacking the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, such sacraments can become effectual and valid only in relation to the Church’s reception of them as such. So for the Orthodox, we do not regard Roman Catholic sacraments as being effectual in themselves but rather only effectual insofar as the Orthodox Church accepts them as such by oikonomia.

 

[Keeperer]

Oh please. It was at my home parish where I was baptized. Orthodox and Catholics have essentially the same views on the Eucharist. During my conversion process to Orthodoxy, my Catholic priest still knowingly performed reconciliation and gave me communion. When I am unable to attend an Orthodox Church, I attend a Catholic Church. I’m not going to abstain from the sacraments just for the sake of some formality. I did that for over a year and a half during my conversion process after I moved away. It sucked. Never again.

This does not answer my question.

 

[Rohzek]

This does not answer my question.

Oh okay. Let me be clear then. Nope, they don’t know at all. And I could not care any less. The reason being because for centuries after the schism, Catholics and Orthodox still gave each other communion with no issues. It only became an issue when the relationship gradually became more sour. I’m not gonna oblige some elite dude in either church bent upon upholding a policy that I find absurd. There are serious problems in this world, and me taking communion at a Catholic church is not one of them.

There won’t be penalties for me because they will never know. And if they did, I’d tell them to shove their dumb rules up their rear end.

 

[Keeperer]

Oh okay. Let me be clear then. Nope, they don’t know at all. And I could not care any less. The reason being because for centuries after the schism, Catholics and Orthodox still gave each other communion with no issues. It only became an issue when the relationship gradually became more sour. I’m not gonna oblige some elite dude in either church bent upon upholding a policy that I find absurd. There are serious problems in this world, and me taking communion at a Catholic church is not one of them.

There won’t be penalties for me because they will never know. And if they did, I’d tell them to shove their dumb rules up their rear end.

I am afraid you are neither Orthodox nor Catholic. You have excommunicated yourself from both Churches. These “dump” rules were written by Apostles themselves, and you call their direct successor “some elite dude”. You are not obedient to the Church.
It would be the same if you commune unprepared and unworthy (Mortal sin, or to eat just before the communion), you could say those rules are also dump and hide it from the priest. But those who commune like that, they damage their soul more than they help it.
You sound a bit too proud.

 

[patricius79]

I do not believe there is such a consensus, Pat. The Orthodox position is usually articulated as “We know that grace is in the Orthodox Church but we don’t know where it isn’t”. So it keeps the question open. I personally believe that the Roman Catholic church has a valid episcopate, priesthood and Eucharist.

Thanks, Expat,

That is helpful.

 

[patricius79]

Sacraments performed outside of the Orthodox Church are not valid in themselves without any regard to their relation to the Church. They are like unbaked clay vessels, which only by way of being fired can be said to be ceramics. Lacking the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, such sacraments can become effectual and valid only in relation to the Church’s reception of them as such. So for the Orthodox, we do not regard Roman Catholic sacraments as being effectual in themselves but rather only effectual insofar as the Orthodox Church accepts them as such by oikonomia.

Hi Cavaradossi,

I don’t really understand. I’m trying to understand which Orthodox churches–if any any–officially believe that the bread and wine become Christ’s Body and Blood during Catholic Masses.

Thanks,

Pat

 

[patricius79]

Oh please. It was at my home parish where I was baptized. Orthodox and Catholics have essentially the same views on the Eucharist. During my conversion process to Orthodoxy, my Catholic priest still knowingly performed reconciliation and gave me communion. When I am unable to attend an Orthodox Church, I attend a Catholic Church. I’m not going to abstain from the sacraments just for the sake of some formality. I did that for over a year and a half during my conversion process after I moved away. It sucked. Never again.

Hi Rohzek,

This touches on some of the things I wonder about. Just my two cents. Even in a free and wealthy society like the U.S., there are relatively few Orthodox churches. Where I live, I believe there is only 1 Orthodox Church within 30 miles in any direction. I’m not going to become Orthodox, but hypothetically, if someone in my position–with my health problems–did become Orthodox, I imagine it might be pretty rare that I would be able to recieve communion, unless the Orthodox priest would drive for over 1 hour every week to bring be the Eucharist. As far as I know, the Orthodox don’t allow Eucharistic mininisters to bring Communion, do they? It seems to me that if Orthodoxy were the true Church, it would be more accessible and less limited, ethnically. I’m not trying to be critical, and I know that that in itself doesn’t prove anything. I’m also aware that the Catholic Church’s Bishops and priests may need to preach much more clearly about Catholic doctrine around such issues as contraception, and that if they do so the Catholic Church, also, may become much smaller, as well as more authentic.

Peace,

Pat

 

[wynd]

Hi Cavaradossi,

I don’t really understand. I’m trying to understand which Orthodox churches–if any any–officially believe that the bread and wine become Christ’s Body and Blood during Catholic Masses.

Thanks,

Pat

I don’t know if any “officially” believe that.

 

[Rohzek]

I am afraid you are neither Orthodox nor Catholic. You have excommunicated yourself from both Churches. These “dump” rules were written by Apostles themselves, and you call their direct successor “some elite dude”. You are not obedient to the Church.
It would be the same if you commune unprepared and unworthy (Mortal sin, or to eat just before the communion), you could say those rules are also dump and hide it from the priest. But those who commune like that, they damage their soul more than they help it.
You sound a bit too proud.

Show me where the apostles wrote such rules.

I’m afraid you are ignorant of your history. For centuries after the Great Schism, particularly in the Levant, Orthodox, Catholics, and Oriental Orthodox all continued to share communion with one another despite their very different doctrines.

And let me say this about obedience. I only obey what can be justified. I don’t follow authority blindly. That’s what the laity did when the bishops from Florence came back and tried to force the rulings of the council down the throats of the Orthodox. They rebelled against the bishops. Obedience for obedience’s sake is overrated. What is right must be justified. And you can’t justify current Orthodox policy without either being a pragmatist to please some radical elements in the Orthodox Church who are staunchly anti-Catholic, or without being a tacit Donatist.

 

[Rohzek]

Hi Rohzek,

This touches on some of the things I wonder about. Just my two cents. Even in a free and wealthy society like the U.S., there are relatively few Orthodox churches. Where I live, I believe there is only 1 Orthodox Church within 30 miles in any direction. I’m not going to become Orthodox, but hypothetically, if someone in my position–with my health problems–did become Orthodox, I imagine it might be pretty rare that I would be able to recieve communion, unless the Orthodox priest would drive for over 1 hour every week to bring be the Eucharist. As far as I know, the Orthodox don’t allow Eucharistic mininisters to bring Communion, do they? It seems to me that if Orthodoxy were the true Church, it would be more accessible and less limited, ethnically. I’m not trying to be critical, and I know that that in itself doesn’t prove anything. I’m also aware that the Catholic Church’s Bishops and priests may need to preach much more clearly about Catholic doctrine around such issues as contraception, and that if they do so the Catholic Church, also, may become much smaller, as well as more authentic.

Peace,

Pat

I’m unaware of whether or not Orthodox allow Eucharistic ministers. I can say though that the Orthodox Church is growing in the US. Montana used to have one priest for all of the state, who would go around each week to a different parish. Now the situation has much improved I hear. I don’t think the inaccessibility of the church currently has anything to say about its legitimacy. But I do think the staunch ethnic boundaries that plague the church here are serious issues that need to be addressed. The ethnic issue has improved, but it is not fully resolved yet.

 

[Keeperer]

Show me where the apostles wrote such rules.

I’m afraid you are ignorant of your history. For centuries after the Great Schism, particularly in the Levant, Orthodox, Catholics, and Oriental Orthodox all continued to share communion with one another despite their very different doctrines.

And let me say this about obedience. I only obey what can be justified. I don’t follow authority blindly. That’s what the laity did when the bishops from Florence came back and tried to force the rulings of the council down the throats of the Orthodox. They rebelled against the bishops. Obedience for obedience’s sake is overrated. What is right must be justified. And you can’t justify current Orthodox policy without either being a pragmatist to please some radical elements in the Orthodox Church who are staunchly anti-Catholic, or without being a tacit Donatist.

If you don’t believe in the schism and the division between the Catholic and Orthodox and the breaking of the communion between the two? Why did you bother converting to Orthodoxy? Why didn’t you just enter any Orthodox Church at Sunday and commune? It is not like that priest would know… And you sound like someone who praises the fail of Florence Council. You act as those bishops who accepted Florence, you think you can commune with anyone you like. They were at least blackmailed. While you think you are smarter than 1000 years of the Church.

 

[patricius79]

I don’t know if any “officially” believe that.

Thanks, wynd,

Do any of the the Orthodox Churches officially teach that the bread and wine do not become the Body and Blood of Christ during Catholic Masses?

 

[wynd]

Thanks, wynd,

Do any of the the Orthodox Churches officially teach that the bread and wine do not become the Body and Blood of Christ during Catholic Masses?

I don’t know that either. Honestly, it doesn’t really concern us at a corporate level either way, as the Catholic Church is not in communion with us at this time. If and when our two churches unite, then you can expect a definitive “yes.”

 

[Cavaradossi]

Thanks, wynd,

Do any of the the Orthodox Churches officially teach that the bread and wine do not become the Body and Blood of Christ during Catholic Masses?

The Greeks do. Officially, even the Ecumenical Patriarchate does.

 

[patricius79]

The Greeks do. Officially, even the Ecumenical Patriarchate does.

Thanks, Cav,

Are there any other Orthodox Churches–such as the Serbs–who agree with the Greeks?

Are there other Orthodox Churches–like the Russians–who officially teach that the bread and wine DO become the Body and Blood in Catholic Masses?

 

[patricius79]

Also, is “Eucharistic Ecclesiology” the official ecclesiology of any of the Orthodox Churches?