Orthodox Evangelisation

[PaulAndrew83]

Hi there,

Question for Orthodox?

Catholics have managed to preach the Gospel everywhere in the world and there are basically Catholics in every country in the worlds due to this fulfillment of the command to evangelize.

Why has the orthodox not got even close to those achievements?

Why isn’t there an orthodox church of Brazil or China or many other places lacking the presence of Orthodoxy.

Paul

 

[rad]

Hi there,

Question for Orthodox?

Catholics have managed to preach the Gospel everywhere in the world and there are basically Catholics in every country in the worlds due to this fulfillment of the command to evangelize.

Why has the orthodox not got even close to those achievements?

Why isn’t there an orthodox church of Brazil or China or many other places lacking the presence of Orthodoxy.

Paul

There was a very informative thread about Orthodox missionary undertakings in various countries. I think that it was in the previous section of this list and now it will be in the archives.

 

[prodromos]

Hi there,

Question for Orthodox?

Catholics have managed to preach the Gospel everywhere in the world and there are basically Catholics in every country in the worlds due to this fulfillment of the command to evangelize.

Courtesy of the Spanish conquistadors. Catholic evangelisation of the past has much in common with the spread of Islam.

Why has the orthodox not got even close to those achievements?

We don’t have a conquer first, convert later mentality. Apart from that, the East was under Ottoman domination for centuries while Russia only recently shook of the plague of Communism. The Church was struggling to survive and wasn’t free to engage in missionary activity.

Why isn’t there an orthodox church of Brazil or China or many other places lacking the presence of Orthodoxy.

The Orthodox Church in China has many martyr saints. We were quite well established in China until the treachery of the Jesuits brought retaliation against all Christians in China and the Orthodox church was almost completely wiped out overnight. We are well established in Japan, Indonesia, India and a number of other SE Asian countries. We are well established in a number of African countries plus have churches in Cuba. In fact I’m fairly sure we have churches in Brazil also. Things are obviously not as you think they are.

John

 

[bpbasilphx]

Keep in mind that the Russian Empire was bigger than all of Western Europe put together, with numerous peoples, ethnic, and language groups.

She was engaged in GREAT missionary expansion within her own borders and elsewhere at the time of the Fatima apparitions warning the world of the “errors of Russia.”

Think about it.

 

[Formosus]

The claim that Russia will spread its errors was made in 1929, after the fall of the Empire and I assume after the missionary work was stemmed by communism.

Personally my opinion are that the Errors of Russia was the murder and deposition of the Emperor which fits in with the reference to the failure of the French kings to consecrete France to the Sacred Heart and the subsequent revolution.

Just my two cents.

 

[jam070406]

We don’t have a conquer first, convert later mentality.

Then the Orthodox should have no problem returning the land and churches it stole from Greek Catholics in places such as Ukraine and Romania, eh?

 

[Diak]

Why has the orthodox not got even close to those achievements?

Much of the world is Eastern or Oriental Christian, whether Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, whatever.

Sts. Cyril and Methodius, named co-patrons of Europe by the late Holy Father John Paul II, evangelized using the ritual tradition of Constantinople. I am not sure what your point is or why it is posed in a demeaning way.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Then the Orthodox should have no problem returning the land and churches it stole from Greek Catholics in places such as Ukraine and Romania, eh?

Of course, don’t forget the Greek Catholics had originally stolen many of these from the Orthodox.

 

[jam070406]

Then the Orthodox should have no problem returning the land and churches it stole from Greek Catholics in places such as Ukraine and Romania, eh?

Of course, don’t forget the Greek Catholics had originally stolen many of these from the Orthodox.

Not sure what you are talking about. I don’t know alot about the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church history.

I do know about Romania.
The communists (with the blessing of the Romanian Orthodox church) tried to liquidate the Greek Catholic Church. Churches were confiscated (and given to the Orthodox) or torn down, priests and Bishops kidnapped. Bishops died in captivity. Catholics were coerced into conversion. Some Catholics went underground. There were over 2000 Greek Catholic Churches before communism, and approx. 160 or so were returned after the fall of communism.
There was a “synod” held to break ties with Rome. Only problem was, no Greek Catholics Bishops were present.
I’ve heard testimonies of Greek Catholics priests being beaten for information.

So it is inaccurate for the previous (Orthodox) poster to accuse the Catholic Church of these things and deny that his own Church has never done anything of the sort.
And I admit it got me alittle hot because the subject touches me personally.
I apologize for my initial reaction.

I think Diak gave a good answer. And he didn’t have to resort to tired polemics or petty, prideful, attacks. (not saying you did)

I can’t question the intent of the OP but, this is definitely a delicate subject that could have been asked with more prudence.

 

[Volodymyr]

?

Why isn’t there an orthodox church of Brazil or China or many other places lacking the presence of Orthodoxy.

Perhaps you need translate on your browsers into english, but here is information on such churches you do not believe exist:

Here, you can read about the autonomous Chinese Orthodox Church
pravoslavie.ru/cgi-bin/sykon/client/display.pl?sid=834

Here you can read about Church in Brazilia:

pravoslavie.ru/smi/793.htm
russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/2008/10sarioliturgy.html

 

[prodromos]

I do know about Romania.
The communists (with the blessing of the Romanian Orthodox church) tried to liquidate the Greek Catholic Church. Churches were confiscated (and given to the Orthodox) or torn down, priests and Bishops kidnapped. Bishops died in captivity. Catholics were coerced into conversion. Some Catholics went underground. There were over 2000 Greek Catholic Churches before communism, and approx. 160 or so were returned after the fall of communism.
There was a “synod” held to break ties with Rome. Only problem was, no Greek Catholics Bishops were present.
I’ve heard testimonies of Greek Catholics priests being beaten for information.

So it is inaccurate for the previous (Orthodox) poster to accuse the Catholic Church of these things and deny that his own Church has never done anything of the sort.

The problem is that you accuse the Orthodox Church of crimes committed by the Communists, the same Communists who heavily persecuted the Orthodox Church.

The reason the Church buildings in the mountains of Romania are built of wood and not stone, is because it was quicker and easier to rebuild them after the Communists burnt them down.

John

 

[jam070406]

The problem is that you accuse the Orthodox Church of crimes committed by the Communists, the same Communists who heavily persecuted the Orthodox Church.

The reason the Church buildings in the mountains of Romania are built of wood and not stone, is because it was quicker and easier to rebuild them after the Communists burnt them down.

John

I accused the communists.
The Romanian Orthodox church cooperated in the crimes.

Of course I woudn’t be as tasteless as to compare all of Orthodoxy to Islam by this minor example.

Like you did with Catholicism.

.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

I accused the communists.
The Romanian Orthodox church cooperated in the crimes.

Of course I woudn’t be as tasteless as to compare all of Orthodoxy to Islam by this minor example.

Like you did with Catholicism.

.

Hi Jam070406,
good to hear of someone with a Ro connection. Are you from Romania?

I grew up in Arad, Ro, and sometimes a Romanian couple was attending (Hungarian language) service at our Roman Catholic Church. My mother told they were Greek Catholics, and their Church was totally banished and made illegal by the Communists. I was also told not to talk about seeing these people, b/c they could get in trouble even for attending the Roman Catholic Church (this before 1989). The persecution of Greek Catholics apparently went way beyond what we Roman Catholics or the EO had to endure.

Now in 2008, almost 20 years after Communism’s downfall, the Orthodox Church still refuses to return the church building that the Communists confiscated from the Greek Catholics and gave over to the Orthodox in my city of Arad. My sister tells me Orthodox Christians are leaving their Church in droves and converting to the Greek Catholic Church now. It’s partly disillusionement with the Orthodox Church’s hypocrisy - after all, what is still holding them back from returning those buildings to their rightful owners? There’s also the laxity with the sacrament of marriage - people get divorced and remarried 5-6 times with the EO Church’s blessing. The (Romanian) wife of my (Hungarian) Chemistry teacher just left the EO Church and started attending at the Greek Catholics b/c she couldn’t take anymore the anti-Hungarian talk and stoking of nationalistic tensions that the EO priests are constantly preaching.

On the one hand, I’m happy that many people in Romania are finding their way home to the Church built on the Rock that is Peter. On the other hand, I’m quite sad b/c this disarray and loss of moral authority of the EO Church is hurting the Orthodox believers who rely on their Church for keeping them on the path of salvation and we cannot reasonably expect for every Orthodox Christian, born and raised in the EO Church, to suddenly convert and become Catholic. We pray for the day when communion with our Orthodox brethren and a strong and vibrant EO Church can be reestablished. We Catholics do not want to proselytize, the EO and Catholic churches agreed at Balamand in the 1990’s that we seek reunion, not proselytism. The Romanian EO Church was part of this agreement, and Romanian Patriarch Theoctist even hosted Pope JP-II for a groundbreaking visit in the spirit of brotherly love in 1999 (something that the Russians, for example, never did). Besides, who can forget Dec 1989, Timisoara, when EO, Catholics, stood as brothers in front of the tanks and machine guns, trying to defend, of all people, a Protestant Bishop who was about to be arrested and deported by the Securitatea?

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Courtesy of the Spanish conquistadors. Catholic evangelisation of the past has much in common with the spread of Islam.

We don’t have a conquer first, convert later mentality.

Or perhaps courtesy of Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Ocatlan, and her other numerous apparitions in Latin America including to an Indian tribal chief in Venezuela.

A few years ago, 99% of Native Americans in the USA were still rejecting Christianity. You can conquer people, but you cannot convert them with force. However it is documented that within some 7 years of Our Lady’s apparition to the Aztec Indian Juan Diego in 1531, practically the whole Aztec population became Catholic Christian, some 8 or 9 million people. These things happened through the influence of the Holy Spirit, and the intercession of our Blessed Mother.

 

[rad]

My sister tells me Orthodox Christians are leaving their Church in droves and converting to the Greek Catholic Church now.

I had a look at the statistics and there are 18,900,000 Orthodox in Romania and only 190,000 members of the Greek Catholic Church. Are you sure the Orthodox are leaving their Church in droves?

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Courtesy of the Spanish conquistadors. Catholic evangelisation of the past has much in common with the spread of Islam.

We don’t have a conquer first, convert later mentality.

The Orthodox Church in China has many martyr saints. We were quite well established in China until the treachery of the Jesuits brought retaliation against all Christians in China and the Orthodox church was almost completely wiped out overnight. We are well established in Japan, Indonesia, India and a number of other SE Asian countries. We are well established in a number of African countries plus have churches in Cuba. In fact I’m fairly sure we have churches in Brazil also. Things are obviously not as you think they are.

By Catholic evangelization, do you mean the conquistadors, the Spanish King’s administration, or the Catholic bishops and priests? Which one of them acted like the spread of Islam?

Hernando Cortes conquered the territory for the Spanish King - much like the expansion of Orthodox Russia under the Tzars throughout the middle ages and up to the 20th century. That Cortes destroyed the Aztec temples’ altars and brought in statues of Our Lady instead of the idols in front of which the Aztecs used to massacre countless numbers of war prisoners and even their own children, I fail to see this as evil even though it was not politically correct. Should he have simply tolerated human sacrifice? That the first administrators of the Spanish crown (“First Audience”) installed in Mexico were evil, greedy, and enslaved the natives, it’s a fact. But they did not represent the Catholic Church, or Catholic evangelization. In fact it was the Catholic Church and Bishop Zumarraga who arranged that a letter describing the plight of the natives was smuggled back to the King and as a result the First Audience was replaced by a new set of administrators (Second Audience). Meanwhile, the Franciscan monks and their Bishop Zumarraga earned the love and respect of a number of Aztecs - not because their methods resembled those of Islam. And it was the same Bishop Zumarraga who prayed for Our Lady’s help, and Our Lady chose to appear to an Aztec Indian (Juan Diego), she looked like a young Native American woman dressed in Aztec royal garments, and she spoke to Juan Diego in his own Nahuatl language. This is the true story of Mexico’s conversion to Roman Catholicism, although it is not the first time that I heard Orthodox people (even an Orthodox priest) claiming that Catholicism was spread by the sword.

I know an Orthodox bishop, head of the Basilian Fathers, and they are present practically throughout Latin America, including Guatemala, Mexico, Brazil. They brought there not only the Word of God, but also caring for and help to the poor people. I guess they are not as visible and widespread as the Catholic Church, but they are present.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

I had a look at the statistics and there are 18,900,000 Orthodox in Romania and only 190,000 members of the Greek Catholic Church. Are you sure the Orthodox are leaving their Church in droves?

This is what my sister sees within her circle of colleagues in the city of Arad. I guess it’s representative of this Western city of Romania, or perhaps even the greater regions of Banat and Transylvania (about 1/3 of Romania’s territory and population). These are the regions where the Greek Catholic Church had a large presence before the Communists banished it.