"Orthodox In Communion With Rome"

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Antonius_Lupus

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Dear brethren,

While I am a Latin Catholic (and somewhat proud of that heritage), I also feel a deep calling to the East; in fact had it not been for the help I received from the Eastern Catholics here I may have even become Orthodox.

Anyway, the Melkite Greek priest who aided me in showing me why I need to be Catholic and not Orthodox (he himself formerly an Orthodox priest), has always stressed to me that Byzantine Catholics are truly “Eastern Orthodox Christians in communion with Rome.” Because of the fatherly influence this priest has had in my life, I have taken up that belief and I have found support of it in the words of the Melkite Greek Patriarch of Antioch (see my sig line).

However, I am not quite sure that I truly understand what that aphorism actually means. From my own serious consideration of Orthodoxy, I found many beliefs which I still believe are not compatible with Catholic teachings.

I am going to ask my mentor-priest tommorow what he means when he says that he is an “Orthodox in communion with Rome.” However until then I wanted to ask the Byzantine Catholics (or any Oriental Catholics) why they believe, if they do, that they are Orthodox in communion with Rome; and what this affirmation means.

Thanks! 😃
 
To me the affirmation means that we follow the tradition and theology of what has been called the Eastern Orthodox Communion. This doesn’t mean that all opinions held by some in the Eastern Orthodox Communion are acceptable in the Catholic Communion, but it does mean that the fundamentals must be identical.

For example, viewing the filioque as heretical, or believing that the Mother of God was conceived without Divine Grace are not compatible with being in the Catholic Communion, but while such beliefs might be found in the Eastern Orthodox Communion they are not fundamentals of the Faith within it. You can find Eastern Orthodox who view the filioque as a semantical issue and not a matter of heresy (including such luminaries as Bp. Kalistos Ware, and the theological commission of North America), and you can find Eastern Orthodox who are totally comfortable with Mary having been specially Graced from the beginning. Since such views are not fundamentally “outside of Orthodoxy”, one can be Eastern Orthodox in good standing and hold to them, and that means that those of us who uphold the Orthodox tradition while in Communion with Rome are not throwing out anything of what it means to be Orthodox; in my view we actually represent to the “union” wing of the Orthodox Churches, rather than something altogether seperate (of course this is colored by my experience in the Melkite Church, which is so close to its Eastern Orthodox counterpart on a grassroots level and even above).

To me it also means something more, which is that “Communion with Rome” is essential to what it means to be an Apostolic Christian. The “Orthodox in Communion with Rome” stand as an example for trying to reunite the Apostolic Churches back into the Communion they were intended to be, without sacrificing our own identities. For me, being “in Communion with Rome” is fundamentally part of the authentic Eastern tradition, and the more we hold on to unity AND our own unique identities, the more we truly represent Orthodoxy in its fullest. Of course this also means that we must strive to make the Catholic Communion always function in a manner that is respectful of the non-Latin Churches and traditions, upholding the rights and dignity of the other ancient Catholic traditions.

Peace and God bless!
 
For me, tho I don’t use the term myself, it refers to holding the fundamentals of the orthodox faith and the use of the ancient liturgies.

Those fundamentals are defined in the first 7 Oecumenical Councils, and the writings of St. Basil, St. John Chrysosstum, Sts. Cyril and Methodius, and the Bible and Byzantine Tradition.

Those are shared with the Eastern Orthodox.

Apostolic Canon 34, however, gets very different treatment between the two sides. As does the end of the Gospel of John. And Matt. 19. When I read of the early church, I see hints, but only hints, of the modern Catholic view; I see no evidence of EO interpretation at all.

Mar Papa bar Gaggai, for example, points towards a “Peter as archpatriarch” role.

Such a role is rejected outright by the EO.

The Romans deny it, but the Catholic Church in its canon law gives the role but not the title.

Due to John 21:9-end, I see the petrine office as archpatriarch. A role that is to the patriarchs as the Patriarchs are to bishops.
 
I am Orthodox and not Catholic but I find these

Eastern Catholics
Western Rite Orthodox

to be anomalies that do not help us to achieve unity that Our Lord wanted for his Churches. You have only to read this site about problems of Latinization of Eastern Catolics and limitations of Eucharistic worship among Western rite Orthodox to realize that this goal of one thing in the bosom of another thing does not work and only confuses people. These so-called churches or rites which are neither one nor the other ultimatey become a separate reality of interest to rare scholars.

Christian unity will come about when Orthodox and Catholic Christians in spite of differences can work together, encouraging each to be as good Catholic as possible and as good Orthodox as possible and in God’s good time intercommunion will occur.
 
Funny you should say that, Volodymyr. Before reading your post, I was just about to say something like “I find it interesting that Eastern Catholics often call themselves ‘Orthodox in communion with Rome’ but Western-Rite Orthodox hardly ever call themselves ‘Catholic in communion with Constantinople’.”
 
Volodymyr,

With all due respect, I, as an Eastern Catholic, am not an anomaly. I am a member of the Church of the East that is in full communion with Rome and with all other Apostolic Churches in the Catholic Communion.

We have the right to exist as a Church and as a Patriarchate. We have the right not to be isolated from our Apostolic brethren, both those who share our Assyro-Chaldean tradition, as well as, those who share all the other ancient traditions. We have the right not to be isolated from the successors of Peter and the rest of the Apostles.

God bless,

Rony
 
Volodymyr,

With all due respect, I, as an Eastern Catholic, am not an anomaly. We have the right to exist as a Church and as a Patriarchate. We have the right not to be isolated from our Apostolic brethren, our Assyro-Chaldean tradition, and not to be isolated from the successors of Peter.
Of course, dear friend, you are not the “anomaly”. All Christian churches are somewhat anomalies having drifted from each other. Certainly all have a right to exist. Another question completely if it is possible for you to be united both to bishop of rome and to your traditional church.

At least for Eastern Catolics like Ukrainian Hreko Catolics this is not the case - they are united to Bishop of Rome but cannot be united to their own brothers. This is an “anomaly” as I see it trying to be two different things. It is hard enough to be one or other - very hard to be both.
 
Funny you should say that, Volodymyr. Before reading your post, I was just about to say something like “I find it interesting that Eastern Catholics often call themselves ‘Orthodox in communion with Rome’ but Western-Rite Orthodox hardly ever call themselves ‘Catholic in communion with Constantinople’.”
:rotfl:

I’m in league with those like St. John Maximovitch who said “Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern…” but I would hardly take it that far.

:rotfl:
 
Funny you should say that, Volodymyr. Before reading your post, I was just about to say something like “I find it interesting that Eastern Catholics often call themselves ‘Orthodox in communion with Rome’ but Western-Rite Orthodox hardly ever call themselves ‘Catholic in communion with Constantinople’.”
Actually the WRO never call themselves that. On the one hand it makes no sense, and on the other, it says nothing.
 
Of course, dear friend, you are not the “anomaly”. All Christian churches are somewhat anomalies having drifted from each other. Certainly all have a right to exist. Another question completely if it is possible for you to be united both to bishop of rome and to your traditional church.
Volodymyr,

There are two sister Churches of the East that are still not fully united with my Church of the East. Their names are: Assyrian Church of the East, and Ancient Church of the East.
At least for Eastern Catolics like Ukrainian Hreko Catolics this is not the case - they are united to Bishop of Rome but cannot be united to their own brothers. This is an “anomaly” as I see it trying to be two different things. It is hard enough to be one or other - very hard to be both.
I don’t want to speak for Ukrainian Greek Catholics, but I just want to say that being a Catholic is not limited to Latin. Catholic doesn’t mean Latin. All Latins are Catholics, but all Catholics are not Latin. A Catholic can be Greek/Byzantine, which is the same basic tradition as the Eastern Orthodox. The Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch and many Greek Catholics call themselves: Orthodox Catholics.
I’m in league with those like St. John Maximovitch who said “Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern…” but I would hardly take it that far.
DoxRox,

There is no Western Orthodox Church. All the Churches in your Communion are Eastern Orthodox Churches. Here is your Communion:

bible.ca/orthodox-autocephalous-hierarchy-organization.gif

Western Rite Orthodoxy are Western Rites of Eastern Orthodox Churches. They are not Western Churches.

Western Rite Orthodoxy should never be put on the same level as the Eastern/Oriental Catholic Churches. We are not Eastern/Oriental Rites of the Western/Latin Church. We are Eastern/Oriental Churches in full communion with the Western/Latin Church.

God bless,

Rony
 
Volodymyr,

There are two sister Churches of the East that are still not fully united with my Church of the East. Their names are: Assyrian Church of the East, and Ancient Church of the East.

I don’t want to speak for Ukrainian Greek Catholics, but I just want to say that being a Catholic is not limited to Latin. Catholic doesn’t mean Latin. All Latins are Catholics, but all Catholics are not Latin. A Catholic can be Greek/Byzantine, which is the same basic tradition as the Eastern Orthodox. The Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch and many Greek Catholics call themselves: Orthodox Catholics.

DoxRox,

There is no Western Orthodox Church. All the Churches in your Communion are Eastern Orthodox Churches. Here is your Communion:

bible.ca/orthodox-autocephalous-hierarchy-organization.gif

Western Rite Orthodoxy are Western Rites of Eastern Orthodox Churches. They are not Western Churches.

Western Rite Orthodoxy should never be put on the same level as the Eastern/Oriental Catholic Churches. We are not Eastern/Oriental Rites of the Western/Latin Church. We are Eastern/Oriental Churches in full communion with the Western/Latin Church.

God bless,

Rony
Would it also be possible to say that you are an Eastern Rite Catholic and I am a Latin Rite Catholic and my head bishop is the Pope and your Patriarch is in union with the Pope?

From a western point of view, a bishop is ‘under’ the Pope and serves where the Pope sends him. How is an Eastern Catholic patriarch like or unlike one of our bishops? Is he more ‘equal’ to the Pope than a bishop is?

I hope these questions aren’t insulting. I’d like to understand this better.
 
Volodymyr,

With all due respect, I, as an Eastern Catholic, am not an anomaly. I am a member of the Church of the East that is in full communion with Rome and with all other Apostolic Churches in the Catholic Communion.

We have the right to exist as a Church and as a Patriarchate. We have the right not to be isolated from our Apostolic brethren, both those who share our Assyro-Chaldean tradition, as well as, those who share all the other ancient traditions. We have the right not to be isolated from the successors of Peter and the rest of the Apostles.

God bless,

Rony
Right to exist?

This strikes me a as a little strange, having just come from a pilgrimage to Minneapolis this last Sunday, and remembering some threads we have had here on what transpired there, between St. Alexis and Archbishop Ireland. We were told that St. Alexis should of thought of the greater good, the scandal it would cause the Latins, etc. No talk of right to exist.

I’m trying to see some sort of analogy with the aphorism of the OP in the first millenim Church, but I know of none. Am I missing something?

Orthodx in communion with Rome? Why not Nestorian in communion with Rome? Monophysite in communion with Rome? Monothelite in communion with Rome? Do the Anglican Use call themselves Anglicans in communion with Rome?

I do like the point made, that the Western Rite Orthodox are not “Catholics in communion with Constantinople, Antioch” or any such thing. As we are all Catholic in communion with each other, that would make no sense.

The claim is often made that the Italo-Albanians have never been out of communion with Rome. It’s not true, but for sake of argument, let’s accept the claim. Are they “Orthodox in union with Rome,” and in that case, what does it mean?
 
:rotfl:

I’m in league with those like St. John Maximovitch who said “Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern…” but I would hardly take it that far.

:rotfl:
I just returned from venerating St. John’s relics. Gorgeous Cathedral in the midst of modern Sodom. Very nice shrine with this incorrupt relics.

Yes, Western Orthodox Catholic he would of approved of. I am sure the saint would have rejected “Catholic in communion with Moscow.”
 
The claim is often made that the Italo-Albanians have never been out of communion with Rome. It’s not true…
Isa Almisry, please give a reliable source that demonstrates that the Italo-Albanians were not always in communion with Rome. Thanks!
God bless you and yours!
 
Volodymyr,

There are two sister Churches of the East that are still not fully united with my Church of the East. Their names are: Assyrian Church of the East, and Ancient Church of the East.

I don’t want to speak for Ukrainian Greek Catholics, but I just want to say that being a Catholic is not limited to Latin. Catholic doesn’t mean Latin. All Latins are Catholics,
Actually, no.

I’ve been to our Western parishes who are Latin. The “Old Catholics” would be Latin, but neither are under the Vatican.

Is the Latin patriarchate of Jerusalem Eastern or Western?
but all Catholics are not Latin. A Catholic can be Greek/Byzantine, which is the same basic tradition as the Eastern Orthodox. The Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch and many Greek Catholics call themselves: Orthodox Catholics.
Many Antiochians, Ukrainians, Russians (i.e. those under Alexei) call themselves, and are, Orthodox Catholics. The cornerstone of the Church where I was received said “SS Peter and Paul of the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church in America”
There is no Western Orthodox Church. All the Churches in your Communion are Eastern Orthodox Churches. Here is your Communion:
We dont’ have “Eastern Orthodox Churches.” If you speak of sui juris Churches amongst yourselves, we have the autocephalous Churches, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Moscow etc. They may be Eastern, but that doesn’t mean they get lumped together. There may be a question about Churches like Poland, the Czech and Slovak Lands (which are autocephalous) and Finland (which is autonomous) being Eastern Rites in a “Western” Church. The Orthodox Church of France has been Western Rite, and even had its own bishops, not within irregularities.

The Vatican calls the Mozarabic and Milanese/Ambrosian rites rites, not sui juris churches, although both have their sees, bishops, etc. (the later having their own popes of Rome). How is how are they rites and not churches. How is this different from the WRO?
Western Rite Orthodoxy are Western Rites of Eastern Orthodox Churches. They are not Western Churches.
Do you mean that the are not independent in their governance, not Western, or anomalies?
Western Rite Orthodoxy should never be put on the same level as the Eastern/Oriental Catholic Churches.
Why not?
We are not Eastern/Oriental Rites of the Western/Latin Church.
Some of the thinks on the Latinization thread, among other things, blurrs this.
We are Eastern/Oriental Churches in full communion with the Western/Latin Church.
And what of the Latin ordinaries in the areas/regions of said sui juris?

We at least admit the existence of more than one bishop in a city is abnormal, but I am told that the exitence of your three patriarchs in Antioch is normal. How so?
 
Isa Almisry, please give a reliable source that demonstrates that the Italo-Albanians were not always in communion with Rome. Thanks!
God bless you and yours!
I don’t know about reliable, but I don’t think you will argue with this source:
newadvent.org/cathen/08206a.htm

The last part is interesting:
The Italo-Greeks are subject **to the jurisdiction of the diocesan ** * bishops; several times, but in vain, they have sought exemption… Naturally, the position of a people whose rite and discipline differed in many points from those of the surrounding population, required special legislation. Benedict XIV, in the Bull “Etsi pastoralis” (1742), collected, co-ordinated, and completed the various enactments of his predecessors, and this Bull is still the law. The Holy See has always endeavoured to respect the rite of the Italo-Greeks, on the other hand, it was only proper to maintain the position of the Latin Rite. No member of the clergy may pass from the Greek to the Latin Rite without the consent of the pope; and no layman without the permission of the bishop. The offspring of mixed marriages belong to the Latin Rite. A Greek wife may pass to the Latin Rite but not a Latin husband to the Greek Rite. Much less would a Latin be allowed to become a priest of the Greek Rite, thus evading the law of celibacy [this how much the rite was "evading the law of celibacy I question]. As regards the Eucharist, any promiscuity of Greeks and Latins is forbidden, except in case of grave necessity, e.g. if in a given locality there should be no Greek church. Where custom has abolished communion under both kinds, a contrary usage must not be introduced.

So much for sui juris.

As the article points out, the Albanians showed up after the Ottoman conquest from the Balkans, where, I trust the outcome of the council of Florence shows, no one was in communion with Rome until the Latin empire forced it.

When they came there, the last remnants of the Greeks of Souther Italy were being rubbed out. On them:
The restoration of the Latin Rite began with the Norman conquest in the eleventh century, especially in the first period of the conquest, when Norman ecclesiastics were appointed bishops. Another potent factor was the reform of Gregory VII, who in his efforts to repress marriage among the Latin clergy found no small obstacle in the example of the Greek priests. However, he and his successors recognized the Greek Rite and discipline wherever it was in legitimate possession. Moreover, the Latin bishops ordained the Greek as well as the Latin clergy. In the course of time the Norman princes gained the affection of their Greek subjects by respecting their rite, which had a strong support in the numerous Basilian monasteries (in the fifteenth century there were still seven of them in the Archdiocese of Rossano alone). The latinization of the dioceses was complete in the sixteenth century. Among those which held out longest for the Greek Rite were Acerenza (and perhaps Gravina), 1302; Gerace, 1467; Oppido, 1472 (when it was temporarily united to Gerace); Rossano, 1460; Gallipoli, 1513; Bova (to the time of Gregory XIII), etc. But even after that time many Greek priests remained in some dioceses. In that of Otranto, in 1583, there were still two hundred Greek priests, nearly all native. At Reggio, Calabria, Count Ruggiero in 1092 had given the Greeks the church of S. Maria della Cattolica, whose clergy had a protopapa, exempt from the jurisdiction of the bishop; this was the ease until 1611. In 1695 there were in the same dioceses fifty-nine Greek priests; after thirty years there was only one. Rossano still had a Greek clergy in the seventeenth century. The few native Greek priests were afterwards absorbed in the tide of immigration (see below). Of the Basilian monasteries the only one left is that of Grottaferrata, near Rome. In Sicily the latinization was, for two reasons, accomplished more easily and radically. First, during the rule of the Saracens most of the dioceses were left without bishops, so that the installation of Latin bishops encountered no difficulty; secondly, the Normans had come as liberators, and not as conquerors.

The troubles of 1054 began with the Greeks of the area appealing to Constantinople, both emperor and patriarch, to protect them from the Norman “liberators.” Btw, the articles talk of “hellenization” of the South is nonsense: the south had been Magna Graecia “Greater Greece” in antinquity, and settled by Greeks since then (Italy is a Greek word, btw). (a similar thing applies to talk of a Latin mass in Romania: when the Romans pulled out of Dacia, the Latin mass wasn’t even said yet in Rome). As it states, Southern Italy was united to Constantinople, and no, that they didn’t side with Rome in 1054 should be obvious, as they appealed to Celarius.

Barlaam of Calabria was among the last of the native Greeks of the region: in his younger days he wrote tracts against the supremacy of the Vatican (which the Church still used after he was condemned otherwise at Constantinople V), before submitting and being rewarded with a bishopric. After him the links with Constantinople were severed and the extinction by Latinization that the article mentions took place, but the “unions” that the Latin empire enforced were already at work before Barlaam. All the Italo-Greeks are actually the Albanians mentioned above.*
 
Would it also be possible to say that you are an Eastern Rite Catholic and I am a Latin Rite Catholic and my head bishop is the Pope and your Patriarch is in union with the Pope?
Claire,

Yes, it’s ok. I just wanted to point out that the one Catholic Church is a full Communion of regional Churches, and not merely Rites. The Code of Canons calls them sui iuris Churches, that is, Churches of their own laws, or self-governing Churches.

The Latin Church is one such regional Church, and there are 22 Eastern/Oriental regional Churches. Each of the 23 Churches is not a Rite of another of the 23 Churches. For example, the Chaldean Church is not a Rite of the Latin Church, or Melkite Church, and so forth.

A regional Church can change her Rite, for instance, the Melkite Church of Antioch used to celebrate the Syriac-Antiochene Rite, but have changed it to the Greek-Constantinopolitan Rite.
From a western point of view, a bishop is ‘under’ the Pope and serves where the Pope sends him. How is an Eastern Catholic patriarch like or unlike one of our bishops? Is he more ‘equal’ to the Pope than a bishop is?
The Pope has three major roles:
  1. Pope of the Universal Church
  2. Patriarch of the Latin Church
  3. Bishop of Rome
An Eastern/Oriental Catholic Patriarch is like the 2nd of the Pope’s three roles. Our Patriarchs are not Popes of the Universal Church because they do not hold the Papal Primacy, nor are they just Bishops of their local Eparchies/Dioceses. They hold the prerogatives of a Patriarch equal to the prerogative of your Patriarch of the Latin Church (the Pope’s second role).

They are in full communion with the Pope and regard the Pope as their head and spokesman, like Peter was the head and spokesman of the Apostles, but are not directly under him in the sense of them being in the Latin Church under the Latin Patriarch. They can be spoken of as being under him only in the universal sense of them being the successors of the body of the Apostles and him being the successor of the head of the Apostles.
I hope these questions aren’t insulting. I’d like to understand this better.
No problem, it’s not insulting at all. Just so you know, there are complementary differences in the “theologies on the Church”(ecclesiology) that are allowed in the Catholic Church. The role of the Pope with respect the Patriarchs can legitimately vary between the various Catholic traditions.

For example, the Melkite Patriarch prefers not to speak of being under Peter but rather with Peter. Chaldeans, such as myself, do not have a problem with using the language of under Peter because historically our Church of the East understood Peter to be over all as Mar Abdisho teaches.

God bless,

Rony
 
Isa,

I’ll try to get to your posts in a few days. I have some classwork that I should be working on, and I’m procrastinating by spending time here on the forums :o 😃

God bless,

Rony
 
Isa: the Code of Canon Law for the Eastern Churches abrogates that bull you cite, being newer and specifying otherwise from the bull.
 
Claire,

The Pope has three major roles:
  1. Pope of the Universal Church
  2. Patriarch of the Latin Church
  3. Bishop of Rome
An Eastern/Oriental Catholic Patriarch is like the 2nd of the Pope’s three roles. Our Patriarchs are not Popes of the Universal Church because they do not hold the Papal Primacy, nor are they just Bishops of their local Eparchies/Dioceses. They hold the prerogatives of a Patriarch equal to the prerogative of your Patriarch of the Latin Church (the Pope’s second role).

God bless,

Rony
Thanks for your explanations.

Do Patriarchs share their authority or the governance of the church with something like bishops who are responsible for different geographic areas of their churches? How is the church organized? For instance, how does one Patriarch manage, say, the Ukrainian Catholic Church (Byzantine rite) throughout the world.

Are the priests called priests?
 
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