Orthodox Lutherans and the Catholic Church Today

[JonNC]

Jon,
What do you mean by universal jurisdiction? I am always interested in what you post, so please expand on this for me.
Thanks.

Stano

Thanks for your kind words, Stano.

The universal jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome.

Jon

 

[skeyes]

Thanks Jon, I thought so, but wanted to be clear. I went through that myself 24 years ago. Have a great day.

Stan

 

[Nils]

In Sweden Lutheranism still is the majority religion, about 60 - 70% of the population belongs to the Lutheran church. The pastors here are normally referred to as “priests” and a lot of the Eucharistic prayers are the same as in the Catholic Church. I also know that they sometimes practice confession, and in the Cathedral where I live they even sell rosaries… They also pray for the recently departed in the “mass” (which is strange to me), and they have pictures of Our Lady everywhere. Sweden was never really well reformed, even though schools and the state have been telling us that Lutheranism is the bomb for 500 years.

This may not say anything about Lutheranism, except that the clergy is very relaxed about their own confession, but I know that the question of authority is the hottest topic here. The only thing the theologians here embrace about Luther is his lack of respect for authority. I once had dinner with a Lutheran “bishop” and he said to me that unity is the thing that he desires most, but that it is impossible because the Catholic Church cannot accept female priests… I also talked to another rather well respected clergy here in Sweden, and he said that Luther never would have broke lose from the Church if he lived today, but I never heard him say anything about coming home!

Anyway, I truly hope that the Lutherans of today study their own creed and decide whether or not it is reason enough to be separated…

 

[benjohnson]

For me, I have to admit that I don’t view myself as being outside of the universal (catholic) christen church - as I probe the history of my Lutheran church, I view it as a valid continuation of the western church with two millennia of history and not just 500 years or so.

That said, the east and west can come together, there’s no reason that we shouldn’t join as well. We have been given great gifts of teaching, hyms, and sermon and I think we would love to be able to share them in a fuller church.

 

[batman1973]

For me, I have to admit that I don’t view myself as being outside of the universal (catholic) christen church - as I probe the history of my Lutheran church, I view it as a valid continuation of the western church with two millennia of history and not just 500 years or so.

That said, the east and west can come together, there’s no reason that we shouldn’t join as well. We have been given great gifts of teaching, hyms, and sermon and I think we would love to be able to share them in a fuller church.

That is something that I hate to say, may not happen. The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, and i’m sure the WELS and ELCA, still hold to the solas, and reject primacy. Faith alone, Grace Alone, Word Alone are core even to Martin Luther’s teaching.

 

[gcnuss]

I pray for the day that we (Lutherans and Catholics – and all Christians) are joined together here on Earth. I have no doubt that all in the Church Triumphant are already one.

Like Jon, I have difficulty with the issue of universal jurisdiction but, at the same time, I have nothing but respect for the recent popes who have been excellent apologists for Christ.

 

[CatholicServant]

Thanks for your kind words, Stano.

The universal jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome.

Jon

Hi Jon,

I want to express my gratitude (as I always learn from and enjoy your comments) for your posts and continued contributions to these forums.

It appears you have one main objection, and maybe some minor ones as well, blocking full communion with us big “C” Catholics. The major objection being “The universal jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome”. However, if I am reading your posts correctly, you believe that the point of the Reformation (Reform in the Church) has been accomplished, and if that is true, wouldn’t the fact that Martin Luther agreed, at least at one point, in his life with “The universal jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome” and was “Protesting” against the abuses lend an orthodox Lutheran like yourself to full communion? If those abuses have been reformed through the Counter-Reformation - what is the issue with “The universal jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome” from an orthodox Lutheran like yourself? Is there more to the objection to the Pope that I am missing?

I hope that is clear and conveys my feelings of respect and admiration for your contributions to these forums.

God bless you always.

Your brother in Christ, Brandon

 

[jrtrent]

I had a discussion with my Pastor some weeks ago that has stayed in my mind. His question to me was this:

Is there a point where the doctrinal differences are such that a Lutheran would have a DUTY to return to the Catholic Church? And where would that be?

The WELS website has a nice summary of similarities and differences between the Lutheran and Catholic faiths. In part, it says, “There are many things that the Lutheran and Catholic churches share: the Bible, the Creeds, the Lord’s Prayer, the Lord’s Supper, Baptism, and much of the liturgy used in worship. . . Significant differences between the Catholic Church and ours include: the papacy, the nature and role of Mary, invocation of the saints, the doctrine of purgatory, transubstantiation, use of the Apocrypha and tradition as sources of doctrine, and justification through a combination of faith in Christ and good works.”

The LCMS and WELS (plus ELCA and all the smaller Lutheran groups I’m aware of) retain private confession and absolution in their churches, so that wouldn’t seem a barrier to remaining in the Lutheran church (though I believe ELCA has other, more serious isses); however, the list of differences between the two faiths would seem an insurmountable barrier to joining the Catholic Church.

 

[CatherineOH]

I had a discussion with my Pastor some weeks ago that has stayed in my mind. His question to me was this:

Is there a point where the doctrinal differences are such that a Lutheran would have a DUTY to return to the Catholic Church? And where would that be?

Unfortunately our discussion was cut short at that time and I haven’t had an opportunity to pursue it further. So I am interested in your thoughts. I have been studying various Lutheran theologians and am much more aware of how our modern Lutheran church has pulled away from our original teachings - as Jon has remarked, Confession and Absolution are good examples of the divergence of doctrine and practice.

Martin Chemnitz on Confession and Absolution:

Because confession and private absolution is a highly necessary thing in the church and through it the benefits of Christ are applied to each individual, the same are thus also to be retained in their correct use in the church. Therefore no one shall go to the sacrament of the altar, unless he has presented himself to the priest and confessed himself a sinner and received private absolution.—Martin Chemnitz, Jacob Andreae, Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel Church Order

As a former Lutheran, I have to agree.
Martin Luther had valid arguments about the sinners within the church. He was kicked out, not the other way around. I believe his concerns were valid, though it took the church 100 years to realize and correct them.

ML was obvouly not a man to be politically correct in his endeavors by posting the 95 thesis. It definately ruffled feathers. The reaction to it was understandable as he was attacking the very people who were sinning and they took offence to that.

If they had paid attention and made the corrections then rather than 100 years later, I do not believe ML would have had cause to write or post the thesis, nor would he have had any problems with today’s church. I believe some of his theories of theology are valid, at least as much as Carmelites, Francis, and Dominic’s are…I emphasize SOME not ALL.

I also believe he was too much overpowered by other’s opinions of other men who joined him which changed his theology to attract others. One of the proofs I have is that he supposedly threw all the icon-ology out of the sanctuary. Yet, we know that he maintained a life long dedication to Mary, even to the point that Lutherans still pray the pre-Trent rosary. I wouldn’t be surprised if proof of some psychosis were also present.