Orthodox miracles?

[Nine_Two]

Your painting with a broad brush again I am ashame to even stoop to the level and call this a Orthodox mindset.

And again a “assumption” and again your"attitude" is the result of your thoughts which create your feelings and then “you” chose to act off. Sorry you feel the way you do. Those are your “feelings” though.

You do not know me “period”. How many ways shall I explain this to you? I’m sorry I don’t fit neatly into any one catagory for you. In your mind it must be fustrating.

I know you are a male Catholic living in the United States, raised in the West. All of these factors will colour your mindset. Just as the fact that I am a Male Orthodox, former Anglican, living in Canada, raised in the West will colour my mindset. To say you have a certain mindset is not an insult. Catholicism in general tends to be very much about the process, because of this, Catholics tend to be. It isn’t a stereotype, it is a creation of the environment.

If you want to take that as an insult, that’s fine.

As you serious? I have been called several names here and you chose to ask me about a personal attack? Where have I attacked on this thread?

“Take my PC Socialist Views elsewhere”

And You would like to point a finger at me? Please.

Yes, take out the context. I said if you deny you hold a mindset of any sort, are completely unbiased on everything, which is what you were originally claiming, you are holding PC neo-socialist (I didn’t say “socialist”) views. If however you can agree that you are affected by your environment, do hold biases, and these affect how you view the world, no it doesn’t apply to you.

When you state mindset and then speak about a group in general then yes there is a mindset. And when you then think you can identify every single person and assume they fit, YOU ARE then WRONG!

This post isn’t addressed to me but the thought behind it certainly is.
You were displaying the Catholic mindset. I didn’t say every Catholic is the same, I said what you were saying came from that mindset. I don’t know why you’re so offended by this and making a big deal about it. You are a Catholic. You are likely going to hold to a Catholic mindset, and you have demonstrated already that you do.

 

[Nine_Two]

I think this is why it is silly to lump Anglicans and Orthodox together as some Orthodox posters do. And I believe it is the point that Gurney was making. The Catholic Church deals with Anglicans in a Western understanding of theology and the Faith and it is different then when dealing with the Orthodox. Yet, some Orthodox will scold Catholic posters for not knowing the Eastern mindset and then speak as if they are experts when it comes to the Western mindset and how Rome deals with Anglicans. So it makes no sense to criticize Rome and how they view the sacraments of the Anglican Church when supposedly, proper intent, matter and form is all a foreign concept to the East anyway.

You’re making the assumption that we have to look at different denominations the same way Catholics do.

If you ask most Old-World Orthodox, they’ll tell you Protestants are just an issue Catholics have to deal with.

I’m not sure who has scolded a Catholic poster for not knowing the Eastern Mindset, nor who has claimed to be an expert on the Western mindset. But you’re assuming that since the Catholic mindset differentiates between Catholics and Anglicans, the Orthodox mindset must as well.

If you can accuse us of having less charity because we do not treat you as you say you treat us, then are you not being hypocritical for not treating Anglicans as they treat you?

Certainly Charity does not go one way. If it is a virtue in one case, why is it not in another? You claim the two situations are different because your magisterium says so, but how are they? You need to demonstrate how they are different. It seems to me that both are cases of inter-denominational relations. In the one case you are shunned, in the other you shun. You can claim no moral highground as long as the Catholic Church is doing to another exactly what you claim we are doing to you.

 

[Nine_Two]

True enough. And the smugness towards Protestants is bothersome to me. It was a huge turn-off to me for a long time and hindered my progress toward returning to Catholicism. But, if I may, I must say that the Orthodox tend to, IMO, go above and beyond the Catholic levels in here and often seem to have a rejoiced tone that there is a schism. Orthodox usually tend to emphasize and obsess about NOT being Catholics, a poor ecumenical tone IMO. Some seem to take great pride in pointing out differences and a sense of superiority. I see Catholics as, though certainly smug at times and arrogant from time to time, usually on here are very respectful to and admire Orthodoxy where Orthodox don’t return the sentiment. Many Orthodox appear to be fueled by the fact that they’re NOT Catholic. The smugness and snootiness abounds in all communions.

I think it is the culture of the boards that encourages Orthodox to point out differences. With so many Catholics on these forums claiming to be experts on the East and saying everything in the two Churches is really the same but just another approach, and trying to say we agree with them on certain doctrines we’ve rejected - but only after watering down those doctrines significantly, we really have no option but to constantly say “no, we aren’t the same.”

Yes, there are an incredible amount of similarities between the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches, and I pray that one day we will all practice and preach a common faith in conformity with orthodoxy. If negotiations between hierarchs are going well it is only because no one is approaching it by saying “We all believe the same things and if you don’t agree you just want division.” (and yes, Catholics have said that, quite a bit more than once). Which of course is another thing, every time there is a meeting we see tons of posts saying LOOK! We had a meeting! Good thing they are closer to coming under Rome than the people on the board say!". No, it doesn’t mean anything, it hasn’t meant anything for the past 20ish years the “talks” have been going on. We aren’t coming under Rome.

To be fair, Catholics feel their faith is correct and try not to be smug. I happen to agree with Benedict XVI that the Orthodox are defective in their lack of the papacy and that they are in schism. But that doesn’t mean we can’t learn from the Orthodox, appreciate so much about their approaches to worship, theology, and praxis. I think the Orthodox attitude that I hear a lot is “we have nothing to learn from you guys” toward Catholics and that is unfortunate. I happen to also reject the Two Lungs theory, which resembles Anglo-Catholic 19th Century branch theories, as it implies Catholicism needs Orthodoxy to breathe spiritually in the Body of Christ. That isn’t the case. But I think the pope was trying to call us to unity and looking at how we are stronger together than in this sad state of schism. When one is separated from the other, there is a brokenness, a family member long gone. I think two lungs is melodromatic

If I recall what you said in this thread is that what Orthodox can learn from Catholics is the Papacy. That has been a central issue from the very beginning. While we can certainly use some coordination, we don’t need a single bishop over all the rest. We’ve done fine without.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

With the lungs the church has from these theories, it’s like a Vortec engine from Ford!

Well if we are going down the whole lung theory road, can Lutherans be the liver?

 

[jam070406]

You’re making the assumption that we have to look at different denominations the same way Catholics do.

If you ask most Old-World Orthodox, they’ll tell you Protestants are just an issue Catholics have to deal with.

I’m not sure who has scolded a Catholic poster for not knowing the Eastern Mindset, nor who has claimed to be an expert on the Western mindset. But you’re assuming that since the Catholic mindset differentiates between Catholics and Anglicans, the Orthodox mindset must as well.

If you can accuse us of having less charity because we do not treat you as you say you treat us, then are you not being hypocritical for not treating Anglicans as they treat you?

Certainly Charity does not go one way. If it is a virtue in one case, why is it not in another? You claim the two situations are different because your magisterium says so, but how are they? You need to demonstrate how they are different. It seems to me that both are cases of inter-denominational relations. In the one case you are shunned, in the other you shun. You can claim no moral highground as long as the Catholic Church is doing to another exactly what you claim we are doing to you.

I don’t claim the Catholic Church doing anything different to one group then the other. The Church still sees yours as in schism. It still views itself as the one true Church, just as your church views itself as the one true church. The CC cares about bringing about unity of all believers and doesn’t favor one group over the other. And I don’t think that Rome’s opinion that you have valid sacraments somehow gives them a higher opinion of your Church over the Anglicans. It’s the fact that the Church feels you haven’t deviated from the Truth as far as Anglicans have. And there is a desire for unity with both. So yes, the two situations are different. With them it would take more, with you it would take less.
Like has been stated, it’s a matter of perspective from where you stand and where the Catholic Church stands. The CC believes it has the fullness of Truth. So I don’t think Catholics get nearly as torn up about you saying we don’t have grace as much as you think they do. Catholics know it’s not true and just scratch their head over such an idea that Orthodox on here can never explain.

Why don’t you read the encyclical that deals with Anglicans and determine for yourself whether you feel Rome is justified in determining that Anglicans have deviated from the Faith. It’s not a moral highground and I don’t believe Rome would ever view it as such. It’s a matter of Truth and true charity. The Holy Father has done much to reach out to Anglicans and I think he has a genuine love and desire for unity. He has hardly shunned.

Now, I understand that Orthodox and Catholics have differing opinions on certain doctrines that have been further developed by Rome. But if you are going to put forth an opinion that Catholics sacraments may be invalid or lacking grace I think the onus is upon you to show why and by what authority, instead of offering empty opinons. As far as having grace, history seems to speak otherwise as the Latin Church has produced many Saints and brought many people throughout the Western globe the gospel message and baptized them into Christ, converting whole nations. You could probably see that grace in action if you were to visit a Catholic Curch or charity near you, or went to pro life march.

The World is beginning to slip deeper into securalism and Rome along with the Russia Orthodox Church has recognized that perhaps working together to curb the onslaught may be prudent. So, while some Orthodox on these boards have said the West offers nothing. The Russian church has shown that a deeper relationship may indeed benefit both churches in it’s battle against evil.
The Orthodox on these boards like to tote the idea that Catholics lack grace as if to get back at the Catholic Church for claiming such an idea about the Anglicans. And then you try and use the Anglicans against us to justify schism. It is you who take a moral high road while in the real world your leaders seem to indicate that such an idea doesn’t even come into play.
Btw, I didn’t mean your high opinion of your church is a bad thing. In fact, I would expect it.

 

[jam070406]

I think it is the culture of the boards that encourages Orthodox to point out differences. With so many Catholics on these forums claiming to be experts on the East and saying everything in the two Churches is really the same but just another approach, and trying to say we agree with them on certain doctrines we’ve rejected - but only after watering down those doctrines significantly, we really have no option but to constantly say “no, we aren’t the same.”

I don’t think any Catholic has ever claimed to be an expert on the East.

When we try to show that we are not that much different you act like we are aliens from another planet or something. You can never refute our doctrines or point to a ecumenical council that claims them heresy but only can say its a mystery and reject them because well…you just don’t know.

When Latin Catholics do point out the different understandings or devotions they are labeled as ultramontanists and the topic spins off into a carcature of the Pope being some sort of evil dictator trying to make all Orthodox into Latins.

 

[Nine_Two]

I don’t claim the Catholic Church doing anything different to one group then the other. The Church still sees yours as in schism. It still views itself as the one true Church, just as your church views itself as the one true church. The CC cares about bringing about unity of all believers and doesn’t favor one group over the other. And I don’t think that Rome’s opinion that you have valid sacraments somehow gives them a higher opinion of your Church over the Anglicans. It’s the fact that the Church feels you haven’t deviated from the Truth as far as Anglicans have. And there is a desire for unity with both. So yes, the two situations are different. With them it would take more, with you it would take less.

It doesn’t have a higher opinion? I would think that allowing us communion, accepting that everything we do is valid, over the Anglican Church which is not allowed communion and which is called invalid, would indeed indicate a higher opinion. Calling us another lung of the Church seems to be a high opinion. Saying we are all the same seems to be a high opinion.

Like has been stated, it’s a matter of perspective from where you stand and where the Catholic Church stands. The CC believes it has the fullness of Truth. So I don’t think Catholics get nearly as torn up about you saying we don’t have grace as much as you think they do. Catholics know it’s not true and just scratch their head over such an idea that Orthodox on here can never explain.

Except we don’t say Catholics don’t have grace. We say that we don’t know. And I’ve seen quite a few Catholics here getting torn up by the idea that we don’t explicitly say that Catholic sacraments are valid. I’ve seen some go on rants about it. I have myself commented in threads before asking why any Catholics care what we think of them.

Why don’t you read the encyclical that deals with Anglicans and determine for yourself whether you feel Rome is justified in determining that Anglicans have deviated from the Faith. It’s not a moral highground and I don’t believe Rome would ever view it as such. It’s a matter of Truth and true charity. The Holy Father has done much to reach out to Anglicans and I think he has a genuine love and desire for unity. He has hardly shunned.

Of course Rome is justified in believing the Anglicans have deviated from the faith. Rome also believes we’ve deviated, and we believe both the Anglicans and the Catholics have deviated.
My comment on the Moral Highground was to guerney’s comment that the Catholic attitude toward Orthodox showed charity while the Orthodox position did not (claiming moral highground). I was answering that specific point. I’ve never heard anything official from Rome trying to make that point, so the argument doesn’t apply to Rome.

Now, I understand that Orthodox and Catholics have differing opinions on certain doctrines that have been further developed by Rome. But if you are going to put forth an opinion that Catholics sacraments may be invalid or lacking grace I think the onus is upon you to show why and by what authority, instead of offering empty opinons. As far as having grace, history seems to speak otherwise as the Latin Church has produced many Saints and brought many people throughout the Western globe the gospel message and baptized them into Christ, converting whole nations. You could probably see that grace in action if you were to visit a Catholic Curch or charity near you, or went to pro life march.

Show me where I have said Catholic sacraments are invalid or lacking in grace? That onus is on you. We believe our own are valid, and that is all that is important. God can determine the validity of anyone elses.

The Catholic Church has indeed produced many saintly people (I avoid the term “saint” itself as the definition is something that seemingly has not been agreed on here), as has every other religion in the world. The Catholic Church has also produced monsters, as have many other religions (probably all). This idea of producing one who is saintly does not prove anything either way.

The World is beginning to slip deeper into securalism and Rome along with the Russia Orthodox Church has recognized that perhaps working together to curb the onslaught may be prudent. So, while some Orthodox on these boards have said the West offers nothing. The Russian church has shown that a deeper relationship may indeed benefit both churches in it’s battle against evil.

Absolutely I agree with you on this. We certainly should work together on such things.

The Orthodox on these boards like to tote the idea that Catholics lack grace as if to get back at the Catholic Church for claiming such an idea about the Anglicans. And then you try and use the Anglicans against us to justify schism. It is you who take a moral high road while in the real world your leaders seem to indicate that such an idea doesn’t even come into play.

Once again, we don’t claim you lack grace, we claim we don’t know. The example of the Anglicans is solely to show that one can’t claim a moral highground for “charity” for accepting us while we don’t accept you. You seem to be seeing an argument much more involved than what was put forward.

Btw, I didn’t mean your high opinion of your church is a bad thing. In fact, I would expect it.

That goes without saying, one should accept their own church as teaching the full and complete truth.

 

[Nine_Two]

I don’t think any Catholic has ever claimed to be an expert on the East.

When we try to show that we are not that much different you act like we are aliens from another planet or something. You can never refute our doctrines or point to a ecumenical council that claims them heresy but only can say its a mystery and reject them because well…you just don’t know.

When Latin Catholics do point out the different understandings or devotions they are labeled as ultramontanists and the topic spins off into a carcature of the Pope being some sort of evil dictator trying to make all Orthodox into Latins.

We actually do quite often when talking about doctrines that differ, however the major point is that what the Catholic Church declares must be accepted we do not always demand the same.

For example the Catholic Church teaches that all members in good standing must accept the Assumption of Mary.
The Orthodox Church also has this teaching, however we do not believe it is related to salvation and believe it wrong to teach it is necessary or to withdraw the Mysteries for disbelief.

The Orthodox mindset toward doctrine tends to be more live and let live. Get the basics, don’t go in certain directions, but believe what you want on the points that don’t matter as long as you don’t stray into areas that do. We’ll still teach you what has been revealed but won’t push it if it doesn’t affect salvation.

Most doctrine infact has only been defined when heresy rose up to challenge it. The same cannot always be claimed in the Catholic Church.

 

[UniversalistGuy]

UniversalistGuy;7514473:

Thank you for answering. What about when the Orthodox Church makes somebody a saint? Do they have to have nine miracles happen like the Catholics do?

There early church did not do this (I had no idea about nine, are you sure you are not mistaken?).

Until about the eleventh or twelfth century the process of canonization was about the same in the east and the west. One diocese would joyfully announce a new saint from among them, and invite the others to join them in celebration and prayer. The calendar was controlled by the diocese or the Metropolitan synod. Other local churches might (or might not) also put the saint on their own calendar, and often the bishops would ask for relics, which as a courtesy would be shared out if possible.

It should be noted that none of the original apostles, nor saint Mary of Nazareth, ever underwent a formal canonization procedure.

Thank you. I understand. I think I’m mistaken about the nine. I thought they went from being blessed to venerable to being a saint and that you had to have three miracles each time to prove it but I think I must be getting mixed up with something else. Sorry.

The Orthodox mindset toward doctrine tends to be more live and let live. Get the basics, don’t go in certain directions, but believe what you want on the points that don’t matter as long as you don’t stray into areas that do. We’ll still teach you what has been revealed but won’t push it if it doesn’t affect salvation.

Thank you that’s very helpful. I’m beginning to see how different the Catholic Church is from the Orthodox Church. I have a feeling my mindset is more in line with the Orthodox one.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I know you are a male Catholic living in the United States, raised in the West. All of these factors will colour your mindset.

This post isn’t addressed to me but the thought behind it certainly is.
You were displaying the Catholic mindset. I didn’t say every Catholic is the same, I said what you were saying came from that mindset. You are a Catholic. You are likely going to hold to a Catholic mindset, and you have demonstrated already that you do.

No, No, No, you don’t actually “know”. Your assuming by what is stated from profiles, avatars and signature’s, and assuming it is in fact truth. But you don’t know for sure, it would be an “educated guess” at best.

Ah, but a contradicting statement, “I’m displaying a Catholic Mindset, but every Catholic isn’t the same” very good your understanding, and since you do not know me your statements are assumptions. …And… You are a Catholic so are “likely” to hold a mindset." Very good in fact you admitt you “likely” may now not be 100% correct in you “assumption”.

Your own statements are starting to exibit the truth. Very good we can actually now begin “real” dialogue.

BTW, I’m not offended at all, and thats an assumption also, nor did I make any “offensive statements” as you have. I listen to whats said, then feed whats said back to you, in hopes “you” can see the “flaw”. In your thinking. I’ll show you what I mean.

Here I’ll show you what I mean my friend. I believe this wrong, I don’t think you should fly off the handle and get upset, just take a look at it!

Here’s a recent statement, “The orthodox lifestyle is more live and let live”. or how about “The Catholic Church has also produced monsters”

So live and let live, is more prevalent with Orthodox than Catholics? Do you have the statistics for this? How could you prove it? How in fact do you not know the complete opposite isn’t true?

How about…

“I think it is the culture of the boards that encourages Orthodox to point out differences” So by your own logic why does it seem a issue for differnces to be pointed out to the orthodox? Do you not think the same set of rules would apply to you? Does that even sound fair?

From your posts I see WE, WE, WE, WE! Are your the spokesperson authorized by all Orthodox Chruchs? Are you speaking for yourself or the the forum of Orthodox? Or a specific Church or all Orthodox Churchs?

How about this, How about an Actual Link from the Orthodox Church in regards to their position on the East-West? We get what “your opinion” about many things is. Does the whole church agree exactly with every statement you made here?

How about Patriarch Kirill, Patriarch Bartholomew? How about Bishop Muller who claims 97% ecclessial unity? Would like to me “quote” what they all have to say? Have you actually read what they are “in fact” saying? Or “WE” don’t agree with them?

Orthodox quote by Kirill on the Pope! “Orthodoxy acknowledges that the Bishop of Rome is the “protos”, the first as is laid down at Nicaea.”

And Benedict XVI…The contentious issue is “Dominus Iesus” which is complex.

So lets see, to “correctly” define from this and in this respect to V-II, noncommunion with the Pope is a defect in the living cell of the particular church, and as it is, it remains a cell.

How about…“Most doctrine infact has only been defined when heresy rose up to challenge it. The same cannot always be claimed in the Catholic Church”

Do you have a total list of all the CC doctrines so we can view the statistics to see “if” in fact you are correct in this statement. Here we are weighing the thinking on the word “most”. So you must have “something” to back up this claim in regards to “most”?

Following what I’m saying about painting with a broad brush? Its what “you” think. Its your “opinion” until actual facts are shown to prove it. Its not the Orthodox Chruch speaking, it YOU speaking and for yourself I might add in many of these regards.

 

[UniversalistGuy]

This is a Catholic forum (as I’ve seen pointed out on it by Catholics numerous times) so if you Orthodox posters keep silent then nobody has reason to get annoyed, right? The struggles of the OP have long been forgotten so I’d like to suggest to the Orthodox posters to move away from this thread. It can only get worse if you stay. Embracing the idea of “live and let live,” I’m off myself to find an Orthodox forum in order to check out Orthodoxy. I’d like to thank the people who’ve helped me on this thread. I’m outa here.

 

[Nine_Two]

No, No, No, you don’t actually “know”. Your assuming by what is stated from profiles, avatars and signature’s, and assuming it is in fact truth. But you don’t know for sure, it would be an “educated guess” at best.

You are of course correct, you could be a habitual liar who gets a kick out of making people think he lives in Connecticut. I make the major assumption that that is not the case.

Irregardless if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck… and your comment that initiated this whole conversation was a quack.