Orthodox miracles?

[Nine_Two]

I’m not sure why you bring up Anglicanism, Nine. I wasn’t talking about Anglicanism. I was talking about Catholicism and Orthodoxy. And I didn’t say my feelings create anything either. You’re nit-picking my verbage, brother. From a Catholic point of view, Orthodox Christians are living the sacramental life and are part of the Church. It is from your angle that we are anybody’s guess. I feel the Catholic Church is far more charitable, hopeful, and optimistic about reunion and healing the schism than you guys are. I think sometimes, from the tone of your posts, that some of the Orthodox love the exclusivity and feeling that you’re not in communion with Rome. I don’t think the hopefulness, desire for reunion, and sense of brotherhood that Catholics feel toward Orthodox Christians is even remotely reciprocated. It’s like the Cold Warriors who felt a sigh at the end of the Soviet Union, who enjoyed the war, the isolation, the hunt, and the sense of us and them.

I think the Catholics I know, by and large, feel that they could learn a lot from Orthodoxy should such a reunion take place. But I have yet to meet an Orthodox Christian on here who feels the reverse.

As far as Anglicans go, and this is off-topic as heck, you know my feelings about Anglican orders. I’ve repeated it ad nauseum on here, Nine. I’m equally charitable and feel a sense of brotherhood with Anglicans as I do folks such as yourself. It’s unfortunate the reverse isn’t a reality.

I know your opinion on Anglicans, but I would have brought up the Anglicans for any Catholic, it has nothing to do with your history. What matters is the official position of the Catholic Church. I’m not sure how you can claim the Catholic Church is more charitable simply because you believe we have some validity (and this is only in the modern day) when you (collective) can quickly write off the Anglicans and other Protestants (Old Catholics, Polish National Church) who feel that same way toward you. Are they then not even more charitable than Catholics? Or perhaps does charity not enter into it.

I do not think it is charity to say something is valid while at the same time saying it is wrong.

 

[Nine_Two]

Mindset - is “an established set of “attitudes” held by someone,” says the Oxford American Dictionary. A set of “assumptions”.

Note the words “attitudes” and “assumptions”.

Have a nice day.

Do we really need to go further with this?

I’m just going to respond to this part.

Everyone has bias, everyone has a mindset, and ALL groups tend to have a certain mindset toward certain things. Catholics are a group and there is a certain Catholic mindset, there is a certain Orthodox mindset, there is a certain Protestant mindset, you operate on certain assumptions and attitudes, but unless one thinks about it, it is often invisable to an individual.

Now I admit my first post was worded harshly, but if it is the idea that mindsets exist among groups that offends you, then I offer you nothing. You can take your PC neo-socialist views elsewhere.

 

[jam070406]

I know your opinion on Anglicans, but I would have brought up the Anglicans for any Catholic, it has nothing to do with your history. What matters is the official position of the Catholic Church. I’m not sure how you can claim the Catholic Church is more charitable simply because you believe we have some validity (and this is only in the modern day) when you (collective) can quickly write off the Anglicans and other Protestants (Old Catholics, Polish National Church) who feel that same way toward you. Are they then not even more charitable than Catholics? Or perhaps does charity not enter into it.

I do not think it is charity to say something is valid while at the same time saying it is wrong.

The current Holy Father has been very charitable to Anglicans.

 

[Nine_Two]

I don’t really blame the Orthodox posters here for believing what they believe (after all if they didn’t think their tradition was superior they wouldn’t be Orthodox) but they do come off as a big smug and self-satisfied at times. (I understand there may be more ecumenically-minded Orthodox out there, but they don’t seem to come to this message board.)

It is difficult to convey emotion in a post, however I would advise you to read some Catholic posts here. There is a considerable amount of smugness on these forums, particularly against Protestants. We believe we are correct, that is not smugness. Constantly making posts with broken syllogisms to prove our faith is correct (as more than a few Catholic posters seem to do) is smugness.

We offer simple apologetics.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I see both at a loss to each other. Its very hard to listen to the Eastern Liturgy and then say I prefer Catholic. Then obviously I see aspects of Catholic I feel are lacking in Orthodox. Theres something in each for both.

You know what if the two churchs were in full communion today. A thousand years from now they wouldn’t even know what the issues weretoday. They have to go back and study the schism to even see why in fact they are split. There are knowns, but they are not positive about everything. Just shows how foolish much of this is. Thats exactly where the September meeting was left. Lets go back and see what we missed?

Who has more to offer and what degree? Really what does it matter. My truck is bigger than yours? I mean come on. We have a world that would immediatly be a better place. All those abominations called denominations whould cease to exist to a large degree.

And someone has to be the spokeman for christianity. When you come right down to it, isn’t that all the Pope is? And so when he passes on then there will be another, why couldn’t that just as easily be a man from the East?

I don’t believe Luther was all wrong. I believe had he been here today he would be dismayed to see the result of what he created. He went about things wrong, but he wasn’t wrong on all the issues.

Nonetheless theirs a world the childrens childrens, children will inherit. We owe to them to leave that world in better shape than we found it. I don’t see that happening. And its ashame. We only have so much control over what we can change. This we have control over.

The doctrine I see no way of getting around? How? Its defined to defend heresy and leave a written record of what in fact happened and the heresy fought. The idea today of Mary from a Protestant perspective would reduce Mary to no different than good Chistian women who visit here. A sinner but a good christian. I dare say Mary was a bit more. Luther knew better and would find that abomination unacceptable. Just and example anyway.

 

[Nine_Two]

The current Holy Father has been very charitable to Anglicans.

Not in the way Guerney is talking about. He continues to hold they have an invalid priesthood. Whether that is correct or not, it is not a charitable thing to say.

 

[jam070406]

Not in the way Guerney is talking about. He continues to hold they have an invalid priesthood. Whether that is correct or not, it is not a charitable thing to say.

Anglicans and Orthodox are two completely different sensitive areas, with different issues, in regards to unity, that Rome is trying to iron out. Perhaps it is your own superior view of your Church that has you thinking Rome somehow covets a relationship with your church more then the Anglicans.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Nine_Two:

u operate on certain assumptions and attitudes, but unless one thinks about it, it is often invisable to an individual.

You can take your PC neo-socialist views elsewhere.

Your painting with a broad brush again I am ashame to even stoop to the level and call this a Orthodox mindset.

And again a “assumption” and again your"attitude" is the result of your thoughts which create your feelings and then “you” chose to act off. Sorry you feel the way you do. Those are your “feelings” though.

You do not know me “period”. How many ways shall I explain this to you? I’m sorry I don’t fit neatly into any one catagory for you. In your mind it must be fustrating.

 

[dzheremi]

Why are you taking this as a personal attack, GaryTaylor? This isn’t about who you are or who Nine_Two is. This is about the very real fact that Catholics and Orthodox have different mindsets, and these lead to different approaches to the faith (and/or vice-versa). It’s not about who knows what about who. If you are Catholic, you don’t have an Orthodox mindset, and if you are Orthodox you don’t have a Catholic mindset. It’s not a personal thing.

 

[jam070406]

Why are you taking this as a personal attack, GaryTaylor? This isn’t about who you are or who Nine_Two is. This is about the very real fact that Catholics and Orthodox have different mindsets, and these lead to different approaches to the faith (and/or vice-versa). It’s not about who knows what about who. If you are Catholic, you don’t have an Orthodox mindset, and if you are Orthodox you don’t have a Catholic mindset. It’s not a personal thing.

I think this is why it is silly to lump Anglicans and Orthodox together as some Orthodox posters do. And I believe it is the point that Gurney was making. The Catholic Church deals with Anglicans in a Western understanding of theology and the Faith and it is different then when dealing with the Orthodox. Yet, some Orthodox will scold Catholic posters for not knowing the Eastern mindset and then speak as if they are experts when it comes to the Western mindset and how Rome deals with Anglicans. So it makes no sense to criticize Rome and how they view the sacraments of the Anglican Church when supposedly, proper intent, matter and form is all a foreign concept to the East anyway.

 

[GaryTaylor]

As you serious? I have been called several names here and you chose to ask me about a personal attack? Where have I attacked on this thread?

“Take my PC Socialist Views elsewhere”

And You would like to point a finger at me? Please.

 

[dzheremi]

IYet, some Orthodox will scold Catholic posters for not knowing the Eastern mindset and then speak as if they are experts when it comes to the Western mindset

Wait a minute, though. Links were posted to various things that the Orthodox apparently see as demonstrative of what they mean when they say “the Western mindset”. So how could it be wrong? They’re talking about what they mean, not what Western Christians mean or how Western Christians see their own mindset.

At some point you have to be able to evaluate the claims of others without having to kowtow to their sensibilities. Obviously from Rome’s perspective, nothing that Rome does is the least bit unorthodox. That doesn’t make Rome the arbiter of what is Orthodox any more than the Orthodox Christian’s claims of their own correctness and Rome’s incorrectness makes them experts in Latin theology or the Western mindset. It’s all a matter of perspective, and one perspective can’t really be wrong (it can lead to wrong conclusions or wrong judgments about what others believe or the implications thereof, but simply having a different perspective than someone else isn’t wrong).

 

[GaryTaylor]

Why are you taking this as a personal attack, GaryTaylor? If you are Catholic, you don’t have an Orthodox mindset, and if you are Orthodox you don’t have a Catholic mindset. It’s not a personal thing.

When you state mindset and then speak about a group in general then yes there is a mindset. And when you then think you can identify every single person and assume they fit, YOU ARE then WRONG! And your thinking just graduated to preconceived, prejudice And I have given you several examples my friend which you chose to ignore. Maybe it would help you to know I’m retired and worked in behavior since 83. And I can assure you this is incorrect thinking. People simply don’t fit neat in catagorys. No different than with Radical Islam. So all muslims are Radical Islamists? Basically that is what you are saying. Its person to person and then you have to actually know them. How would you know otherwise, its am assumption based or prejudice.

And thats what your friend chose to do without knowing me. And he as you, are wrong.

 

[jam070406]

Wait a minute, though. Links were posted to various things that the Orthodox apparently see as demonstrative of what they mean when they say “the Western mindset”. So how could it be wrong? They’re talking about what they mean, not what Western Christians mean or how Western Christians see their own mindset.

At some point you have to be able to evaluate the claims of others without having to kowtow to their sensibilities. Obviously from Rome’s perspective, nothing that Rome does is the least bit unorthodox. That doesn’t make Rome the arbiter of what is Orthodox any more than the Orthodox Christian’s claims of their own correctness and Rome’s incorrectness makes them experts in Latin theology or the Western mindset. It’s all a matter of perspective, and one perspective can’t really be wrong (it can lead to wrong conclusions or wrong judgments about what others believe or the implications thereof, but simply having a different perspective than someone else isn’t wrong).

The only emotional appeals have been from posters on these boards. Frankly, I couldn’t care whether the Orthodox posters on these boards view Catholic sacraments as valid. Their opinion matters little in the grand scheme. And they have ZERO authority what-so-ever to claim validity of sacraments. Let’s leave up to our leaders who are making roads to understand each other.
Rome has evaluated both churches and their sacramental nature. It’s not about liking or disliking one church more then the other. It’s about how far one has departed from the Apostolic Faith in regards to ordination and the sacraments.
Until the East and West come together and discuss validity and all the theological in’s and out’s of the sacraments and the East’s supposed concerns on why Rome’s are not valid (And I assume concern because that would be the loving approach with souls concerned) then opinions are just that.
I’m not even sure it’s a real issue being discussed by Church leaders.
But it is always one proposed here by Orthodox posters.
Rome has studied the issue of Anglican orders and discovered a probem.
Yes, from a Western mindset. Where is the Eastern mindset on this matter? Sorry, “we don’t know” only goes so far and becomes a crutch for those that don’t wanna deal with the situation or come to an understanding to further unity.
The Catholics and Orthodox leaders have been getting together more to discuss the issues, praise God! But the opinons of some on these boards don’t even come near reflecting reality in the real world and I believe that is why attitudes come off as smug by some. To the point of people like you making such insulting and offensive comments like the West has nothing to offer the East.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

True enough. And the smugness towards Protestants is bothersome to me. It was a huge turn-off to me for a long time and hindered my progress toward returning to Catholicism. But, if I may, I must say that the Orthodox tend to, IMO, go above and beyond the Catholic levels in here and often seem to have a rejoiced tone that there is a schism. Orthodox usually tend to emphasize and obsess about NOT being Catholics, a poor ecumenical tone IMO. Some seem to take great pride in pointing out differences and a sense of superiority. I see Catholics as, though certainly smug at times and arrogant from time to time, usually on here are very respectful to and admire Orthodoxy where Orthodox don’t return the sentiment. Many Orthodox appear to be fueled by the fact that they’re NOT Catholic. The smugness and snootiness abounds in all communions.

To be fair, Catholics feel their faith is correct and try not to be smug. I happen to agree with Benedict XVI that the Orthodox are defective in their lack of the papacy and that they are in schism. But that doesn’t mean we can’t learn from the Orthodox, appreciate so much about their approaches to worship, theology, and praxis. I think the Orthodox attitude that I hear a lot is “we have nothing to learn from you guys” toward Catholics and that is unfortunate. I happen to also reject the Two Lungs theory, which resembles Anglo-Catholic 19th Century branch theories, as it implies Catholicism needs Orthodoxy to breathe spiritually in the Body of Christ. That isn’t the case. But I think the pope was trying to call us to unity and looking at how we are stronger together than in this sad state of schism. When one is separated from the other, there is a brokenness, a family member long gone. I think two lungs is melodromatic

It is difficult to convey emotion in a post, however I would advise you to read some Catholic posts here. There is a considerable amount of smugness on these forums, particularly against Protestants. We believe we are correct, that is not smugness. Constantly making posts with broken syllogisms to prove our faith is correct (as more than a few Catholic posters seem to do) is smugness.

I don’t think, when I reflect on it, that Catholics and Orthodox coming on CAF and constantly saying essentially “we’re the real church, you’re in schism” or “you might have valid sacraments, but from where we stand, we just can’t be sure.” If we say these things over and over day after day, what are we really accomplishing? As a Catholic apologetics website, Catholics coming in here defending their faith and encouraging it makes a lot of sense, but if I were not Catholic but say, Orthodox, I can’t see the value I would find coming to CAF?

We offer simple apologetics.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I agree with your post, jam. It seems like many on both sides of the extremes want to keep a “cold war” going. It’s like old warriors sad to see the “threat” of peace

The only emotional appeals have been from posters on these boards. Frankly, I couldn’t care whether the Orthodox posters on these boards view Catholic sacraments as valid. Their opinion matters little in the grand scheme. And they have ZERO authority what-so-ever to claim validity of sacraments. Let’s leave up to our leaders who are making roads to understand each other.
Rome has evaluated both churches and their sacramental nature. It’s not about liking or disliking one church more then the other. It’s about how far one has departed from the Apostolic Faith in regards to ordination and the sacraments.
Until the East and West come together and discuss validity and all the theological in’s and out’s of the sacraments and the East’s supposed concerns on why Rome’s are not valid (And I assume concern because that would be the loving approach with souls concerned) then opinions are just that.
I’m not even sure it’s a real issue being discussed by Church leaders.
But it is always one proposed here by Orthodox posters.
Rome has studied the issue of Anglican orders and discovered a probem.
Yes, from a Western mindset. Where is the Eastern mindset on this matter? Sorry, “we don’t know” only goes so far and becomes a crutch for those that don’t wanna deal with the situation or come to an understanding to further unity.
The Catholics and Orthodox leaders have been getting together more to discuss the issues, praise God! But the opinons of some on these boards don’t even come near reflecting reality in the real world and I believe that is why attitudes come off as smug by some. To the point of people like you making such insulting and offensive comments like the West has nothing to offer the East.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Jeremy, if you don’t mind me asking, what is your motivation to post on a Catholic forum if you detest a Western mindset and feel the way you do about Catholicism? You’ve made it clear that you were Catholic, emphasis on the past, and totally walked away from things you couldn’t swallow or agree with in the slightest. I can respect that though I’m sad you came to that conclusion. That being said, why come to a Catholic message board and post against Catholics all the time? Is it a part of the conversion process to Orthodoxy? When I came to Catholic Answers, I was hardcore into Catholicism back in 2007. In late 2008 I fell out of sorts with it and had serious questions, concerns, and was losing my faith in the Catholic Church in general. But I stayed at CAF in order to help answer my questions, keep an open mind to Catholicism in general, and even as an Anglican I didn’t consider the idea of returning to Catholicism as alien or not on the table. I always wanted to keep an open mind to it. If I were ever, and I cannot possibly see this happening to me, convert to Orthodoxy and see things the way you do, I would be irritated, bugged, and feel it a waste of time to converse with schismatics and spin my wheels?

Wait a minute, though. Links were posted to various things that the Orthodox apparently see as demonstrative of what they mean when they say “the Western mindset”. So how could it be wrong? They’re talking about what they mean, not what Western Christians mean or how Western Christians see their own mindset.

At some point you have to be able to evaluate the claims of others without having to kowtow to their sensibilities. Obviously from Rome’s perspective, nothing that Rome does is the least bit unorthodox. That doesn’t make Rome the arbiter of what is Orthodox any more than the Orthodox Christian’s claims of their own correctness and Rome’s incorrectness makes them experts in Latin theology or the Western mindset. It’s all a matter of perspective, and one perspective can’t really be wrong (it can lead to wrong conclusions or wrong judgments about what others believe or the implications thereof, but simply having a different perspective than someone else isn’t wrong).

 

[Harpazo]

Jeremy, if you don’t mind me asking, what is your motivation to post on a Catholic forum if you detest a Western mindset and feel the way you do about Catholicism? You’ve made it clear that you were Catholic, emphasis on the past, and totally walked away from things you couldn’t swallow or agree with in the slightest. I can respect that though I’m sad you came to that conclusion. That being said, why come to a Catholic message board and post against Catholics all the time? Is it a part of the conversion process to Orthodoxy? When I came to Catholic Answers, I was hardcore into Catholicism back in 2007. In late 2008 I fell out of sorts with it and had serious questions, concerns, and was losing my faith in the Catholic Church in general. But I stayed at CAF in order to help answer my questions, keep an open mind to Catholicism in general, and even as an Anglican I didn’t consider the idea of returning to Catholicism as alien or not on the table. I always wanted to keep an open mind to it. If I were ever, and I cannot possibly see this happening to me, convert to Orthodoxy and see things the way you do, I would be irritated, bugged, and feel it a waste of time to converse with schismatics and spin my wheels?

Not again…

I thought we could avoid this sort of thing. Do you think if you have a problem with someone’s perceived motives you can take it to PM? It’s highly embarrassing and sadly causes some other forum members to paint people (like the ones that get accuses as such or have their motives questioned publically) as proselytizers.

Were your motives questioned while you were an Anglican and trying to reconcile yourself to Rome? If so, did you appreciate your integrity being questioned? For me, it is very hurtful and I don’t think it should be made so public. But that’s my peace. I suppose I should go back to my sabbatical from CAF now?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[dzheremi]

if you detest a Western mindset

Where did I say anything like this in the post you are quoting or any other post in this thread, or anywhere? All I said in the post you quoted is that there exists an Orthodox mindset (which prevails in the East) and a Catholic mindset (which prevails in the West), and that they’re not the same mindset, and that neither side should think themselves experts in how others approach their faith, even though certain generalities can be attributed to one side or the other. In another post of mine in this thread (#54) I stated the same thing, and not only did no one protest, but another poster who is Catholic and openly disagrees with me on many other points agreed with me (#75), so I don’t know why it is now being twisted to something anti-Western or anti-Latin. It’s not.

and feel the way you do about Catholicism? You’ve made it clear that you were Catholic, emphasis on the past, and totally walked away from things you couldn’t swallow or agree with in the slightest. I can respect that though I’m sad you came to that conclusion. That being said, why come to a Catholic message board and post against Catholics all the time? Is it a part of the conversion process to Orthodoxy?

No, Scott, it’s not part of conversion to Orthodoxy. It’s part of my respect for a lot of people here (you too) and certain aspects of Catholic tradition that I still hold very dear even though I am no longer a part of the Church.

When I came to Catholic Answers, I was hardcore into Catholicism back in 2007. In late 2008 I fell out of sorts with it and had serious questions, concerns, and was losing my faith in the Catholic Church in general. But I stayed at CAF in order to help answer my questions, keep an open mind to Catholicism in general, and even as an Anglican I didn’t consider the idea of returning to Catholicism as alien or not on the table.

Then it seems that our experiences are similar in some ways and different in some ways. I was very much Catholic in my practice and the mindset I embraced at the time that I joined CAF, but over time, and not without reference to some conversations I engaged in on here (though I wouldn’t say any of them led me anywhere that I wasn’t already going), I began to see things a bit differently. There was no rapid change (still isn’t). For instance, at my confirmation I chose Sts. Cyril & Methodius, the apostles to the Slavs. When I was first taught to cross myself I was disciplined for doing it the “Eastern way” (right to left, as felt natural to me as a left-hander). Neither of these rather silly examples make me St. Ephrem (nothing will; culturally I am a Westerner, through and through), but they do indicate an openness towards the East that is actually not uncommon among certain subsets of Roman Catholicism, particularly among the Latino community that I often worshiped in (it seems that St. Charbel of Lebanon, for instance, is almost absurdly popular in Mexico, relative to the very small number of Mexican-Lebanese people).

I always wanted to keep an open mind to it. If I were ever, and I cannot possibly see this happening to me, convert to Orthodoxy and see things the way you do, I would be irritated, bugged, and feel it a waste of time to converse with schismatics and spin my wheels?

Okay. That’s how you would feel. I am not here to discount your feelings or your experiences. But I can only have my feelings and my experiences and my attempts at understanding things. If they bother you, I would not be offended if you stopped reading my posts. I’m not here to give anyone an ulcer. I am here because it is always good to have your assumptions challenged, so as to not fall into the trap of thinking that you’ve advanced so far and aren’t you great and all that. No. I’m not great. I’m not Catholic and I’m not Orthodox and moreover I’m not great. I’m reminded of that pretty often around here, and you know, it’s a good thing. It’s a necessary thing.

It reminds me of an incident that is recorded in the sayings of the Desert Fathers, about St. John the Dwarf. I am paraphrasing a bit to make it more applicable to our situation: One day St. John said to an older monk, “I’m at peace and find myself without detractors.” So the old man told him “then go and find yourself some, because you’re not going to make any progress without being challenged.” So St. John did so, and instead of asking God to take them away from him, he asked God to give him strength to face those who would challenge him.

That’s how you make progress. Or at least that’s how I want to make progress. Not to annoy or anger anyone, but to not live in an echo chamber where we can all sit around and pat each other on the back about how correct we are (because the real world isn’t like that, either, and that’s where we really have to be prepared). I already post on a Coptic Orthodox board. I post here because you guys aren’t that; you’re different and unique and I value that.

 

[Harpazo]

Where did I say anything like this in the post you are quoting or any other post in this thread, or anywhere? All I said in the post you quoted is that there exists an Orthodox mindset (which prevails in the East) and a Catholic mindset (which prevails in the West), and that they’re not the same mindset, and that neither side should think themselves experts in how others approach their faith, even though certain generalities can be attributed to one side or the other. In another post of mine in this thread (#54) I stated the same thing, and not only did no one protest, but another poster who is Catholic and openly disagrees with me on many other points agreed with me (#75), so I don’t know why it is now being twisted to something anti-Western or anti-Latin. It’s not.

No, Scott, it’s not part of conversion to Orthodoxy. It’s part of my respect for a lot of people here (you too) and certain aspects of Catholic tradition that I still hold very dear even though I am no longer a part of the Church.

Then it seems that our experiences are similar in some ways and different in some ways. I was very much Catholic in my practice and the mindset I embraced at the time that I joined CAF, but over time, and not without reference to some conversations I engaged in on here (though I wouldn’t say any of them led me anywhere that I wasn’t already going), I began to see things a bit differently. There was no rapid change (still isn’t). For instance, at my confirmation I chose Sts. Cyril & Methodius, the apostles to the Slavs. When I was first taught to cross myself I was disciplined for doing it the “Eastern way” (right to left, as felt natural to me as a left-hander). Neither of these rather silly examples make me St. Ephrem (nothing will; culturally I am a Westerner, through and through), but they do indicate an openness towards the East that is actually not uncommon among certain subsets of Roman Catholicism, particularly among the Latino community that I often worshiped in (it seems that St. Charbel of Lebanon, for instance, is almost absurdly popular in Mexico, relative to the very small number of Mexican-Lebanese people).

Okay. That’s how you would feel. I am not here to discount your feelings or your experiences. But I can only have my feelings and my experiences and my attempts at understanding things. If they bother you, I would not be offended if you stopped reading my posts. I’m not here to give anyone an ulcer. I am here because it is always good to have your assumptions challenged, so as to not fall into the trap of thinking that you’ve advanced so far and aren’t you great and all that. No. I’m not great. I’m not Catholic and I’m not Orthodox and moreover I’m not great. I’m reminded of that pretty often around here, and you know, it’s a good thing. It’s a necessary thing.

It reminds me of an incident that is recorded in the sayings of the Desert Fathers, about St. John the Dwarf. I am paraphrasing a bit to make it more applicable to our situation: One day St. John said to an older monk, “I’m at peace and find myself without detractors.” So the old man told him “then go and find yourself some, because you’re not going to make any progress without being challenged.” So St. John did so, and instead of asking God to take them away from him, he asked God to give him strength to face those who would challenge him.

That’s how you make progress. Or at least that’s how I want to make progress. Not to annoy or anger anyone, but to not live in an echo chamber where we can all sit around and pat each other on the back about how correct we are (because the real world isn’t like that, either, and that’s where we really have to be prepared). I already post on a Coptic Orthodox board. I post here because you guys aren’t that; you’re different and unique and I value that.

Amin! My thoughts exactly, although you expressed it far more eloquently.

To All: I apologize to those who thought I was being smug or arrogant. In no wise did I wish to come across that way and I humbly ask for forgiveness. Furthermore, I am not here to convert a single soul, but I share the same sentiments as my brother Jeremy wrote above.

In Christ,
Andrew