Orthodox miracles?

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UniversalistGuy said:
Where do Orthodox miracles fit in to Orthodoxy? Do you have a patriarch putting pressure on you telling you that they are “worthy of belief” like the pope apparently tells Catholics about Catholic miracles?
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Maybe you can explain this “pressure” you seem to assume happens. But I do believe you have completely backwards.
 
GaryTaylor said:
UniversalistGuy;7513308:
Where do Orthodox miracles fit in to Orthodoxy? Do you have a patriarch putting pressure on you telling you that they are “worthy of belief” like the pope apparently tells Catholics about Catholic miracles?
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Maybe you can explain this “pressure” you seem to assume happens. But I do believe you have completely backwards.
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Maybe I did get it backwards. I get mixed up sometimes. I got the idea of there being pressure from the OP. The OP seems to be struggling with miracles when they happen in Orthodoxy. I got the impression that the OP was wavering in faith because of Orthodox miracles and I tried to help by suggesting not to put doctrine and miracles in the same box so to speak. Then the doubts about the Catholic Church being the one true church won’t come when you see miracles happening in Orthodoxy. I thought it was optional for Catholics if they wanted to believe in these apparitions or not and I said so and suggested that it showed that they weren’t in the same category as doctrine because you have to believe doctrine. If you HAVE to believe doctrine but you’re not forced to believe miracles and have the option of not believing them they can’t be in the same category. Then you posted with this “worthy of belief” idea and said that belief in those apparitions “isn’t proposed as an option.” So it seems I was wrong to try and help the OP in the way I did because what I said wasn’t correct. Catholics miracles and apparitions aren’t optional for Catholics after all. And if it’s not an option then the OP is still under pressure and still has the same problem and will still struggle and be uncertain if the Catholic church is the one true church when reports of Orthodox miracles are made. I sympathize with the OP because I’m trying to figure out which way to go myself. I was trying to help the OP. I’m sorry if I got it backwards.
 
When and Supernatural event occurs such as Fatima. In essense followers start making the journey to the sight. Which happened right from the start and numbers increased to 70-thousand at the predicted, dated Miracle. At which point the Vatican still wasn’t their though two local Catholic Priests were. In the case of Fatima the pilgrimage became bigger and bigger. The church became involved to a larger degree as a result.

So in essense it wouldn’t be the Pope arriving deeming the event worthy of belief, then the crowds arrive. The crowds arrive and the Vatican is under constant pressure, for example from the Blue Army and other related Marion groups, Fatima etc. Then the truth becomes an issue. There are hundreds of thousnds making the journey yearly. The Vatican makes the choice to investigate based on the reality that many of its followers of the faith are believing and following. So the concern becomes two fold, those who are following and what actually happened and if its actually “worthy of belief”. The souls of these followers becomes the main concern.

In the case of Fatima the investigation one might say has been on-going since 1917. Matter of fact Benedict XVI arrived May13 2010 and the first thing he stated is “I to have come as a pilgrim.”

Fatima for example with hundreds of thousands its followers made the journey to Vatican City last year. Not exactly sure what the intended purpose was, some type of information or veneration I assume. Nonetheless this places a great pressure on the Vatican/Pope to act.

So one could accurately say the church is ran from inside and from outside. And in the case of Apparitions/Miracles the pressure is always from the outside.
 
UniversalistGuy said:
Thank you for answering. What about when the Orthodox Church makes somebody a saint? Do they have to have nine miracles happen like the Catholics do?
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The process is informal, much as it was in the Early Church. While there will be an eventual proclimation by some Church body or another there is nothing formal, though many saints are believed to have performed miracles. They are saints because they walked with God, not because of any specific earthly act, whether before or after death.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Are you sure about this, or is this speculation? How is it possible to have “just an organic consensus, nothing formal or systematic” and then make a judgement on if in fact a Supernatural event occured? How would you know if mental heath issues were not part of individuals history? How would you know what a witness had to say, or if their testimony was consistant to the event? Or even if there was a witness or many who are ashamed to come foward due to ridicule?
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Why do you need all of that? Can’t you take anything as a matter of faith?
Has to be a bit more than that I would think?
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You might think that because you’ve got a Latin Catholic mindset. The East is nowhere near as legalistic. Not everything needs a formal process to decide if it is to be accepted or not. The Holy Spirit is always consistant. If it says something inconsistant with past messages we know it is not the Holy Spirit, if the message is consistant than it is a good message.
 
Nine_Two said:
Why do you need all of that? Can’t you take anything as a matter of faith?

You might think that because you’ve got a Latin Catholic mindset. The East is nowhere near as legalistic. Not everything needs a formal process to decide if it is to be accepted or not. The Holy Spirit is always consistant. If it says something inconsistant with past messages we know it is not the Holy Spirit, if the message is consistant than it is a good message.
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What I need has nothing to do with what the process is. What I can accept on Faith also has nothing to do with the conversation. 🤷

What I want is an explaination as to how the process works because I’m not familiar with it. That OK will you?

Whats a Latin Catholic mindset? Since you seem to have some preconceived, prejudice notion maybe you could enlighten me?
 
You’ve already been given the answer you’re looking for, GaryTaylor. It is an informal process, not at all like the Roman Catholic way of dealing with miracles.
 
Nine_Two said:
UniversalistGuy;7514473:
Thank you for answering. What about when the Orthodox Church makes somebody a saint? Do they have to have nine miracles happen like the Catholics do?
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The process is informal, much as it was in the Early Church. While there will be an eventual proclimation by some Church body or another there is nothing formal, though many saints are believed to have performed miracles. They are saints because they walked with God, not because of any specific earthly act, whether before or after death.
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That’s really a good explanation. Thank you. If it’s much as it was in the Early Church then that sounds like a miracle in itself.
 
UniversalistGuy said:
I get the idea. 😉

So if that’s how you perceive Latin Catholics how would you describe an “Orthodox mindset”?
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Perfect? 😃

(and we’re all incredibly handsome) :cool:

I don’t know. It’s taken us over 80 years to prepare for the upcoming Great and Holy Council of the Orthodox Churches (scheduled for 2013). Read into that what you will. 🙂
 
I think if no examples were given of either mindset that both sides could read prejudices into, we would all agree that they do have different mindsets. The Eastern Church is not the same as the Western Church in its approach to the faith or any given aspect of it, and vice-versa. Thinking otherwise seems to be against the evidence that even the Roman Catholic Church acknowledges in the establishment of specifically Eastern Catholic Churches.
 
UniversalistGuy said:
I get the idea. 😉

So if that’s how you perceive Latin Catholics how would you describe an “Orthodox mindset”?
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Yes that would be the next question on this path to defend a riduculous statement. Sounds like “Blind Faith” is the explaination. 🤷

Anyway,

While that in fact may be true, I in fact had the distinct impression that “maybe” just “maybe” there was a little more to the Orthodox process? Apparently that little one sentence confrontation ruffled a few feathers.:confused: Now if that simple confrontation ruffled your feathers, maybe you might just want to ask yourself what in the world you expect to happen on a public forum where debates involving all religions, including none are the norm?

But I can assure you it won’t stop me from asking further questions when “vague” seems to be the response.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Yes that would be the next question on this path to defend a riduculous statement. Sounds like “Blind Faith” is the explaination. 🤷
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What’s ridiculous about it? The Roman Church has a very legalistic mindset. The references I gave were simply examples of that.
GaryTaylor said:
While that in fact may be true, I in fact had the distinct impression that “maybe” just “maybe” there was a little more to the Orthodox process?
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No, either the body of the Church accepts it or not. There really is no formal process as exists in the Catholic Church.
GaryTaylor said:
Apparently that little one sentence confrontation ruffled a few feathers.:confused: Now if that simple confrontation ruffled your feathers, maybe you might just want to ask yourself what in the world you expect to happen on a public forum where debates involving all religions, including none are the norm?
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What in the world are you talking about? :confused:
GaryTaylor said:
But I can assure you it won’t stop me from asking further questions when “vague” seems to be the response.
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Yet again demonstrating precisely what we mean by Latin mindset. 🤷
 
The perfect thing could happen through theosis but the handsome thing? I’ve seen those scraggly, tangled, long beards. Handsome those things aren’t! 😛
\
josephdaniel29 said:
Perfect? 😃

(and we’re all incredibly handsome) :cool:

I don’t know. It’s taken us over 80 years to prepare for the upcoming Great and Holy Council of the Orthodox Churches (scheduled for 2013). Read into that what you will. 🙂
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Gotta watch out for Boss Hogg and Cooter! :D:eek:
tomarin said:
I think you’re on to something, Gurn.

Added: all that time spent watching the Dukes of Hazzard in the basement wasn’t for naught, after all.
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josephdaniel29 said:
What’s ridiculous about it? The Roman Church has a very legalistic mindset. The references I gave were simply examples of that.

No, either the body of the Church accepts it or not. There really is no formal process as exists in the Catholic Church.

What in the world are you talking about? :confused:

Yet again demonstrating precisely what we mean by Latin mindset. 🤷
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So this is the Orthodox mindset then???

How about this theory, you don’t know me from a can of paint, and I don’t know you. And when you make a ridiculous statement as such it indicates predjudice.
 
GaryTaylor said:
So this is the Orthodox mindset then???

How about this theory, you don’t know me from a can of paint, and I don’t know you. And when you make a ridiculous statement as such it indicates pedjudice.
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You have a nice day. 🙂
 
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