Orthodox (OCA) getting married in a RC Church

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He doesn’t seem to have said what he considers himself though - it sounds to me like he may still consider himself Orthodox. If so, the Orthodox probably don’t much care what the Catholic Church considers him.
It doesn’t matter what he considers himself to be, nor does it matter what the Orthodox Church considers him to be. Regarding validity of marriage, it only matters what the Catholic Church considers him to be. As a baptized Catholic, he is bound by the Eatern code of canon law as it pertains to contracting marriage.

What the Catholic Church considers him to be would be true regardless of whom he married, but it is especially relevant in that he did in fact marry a Latin Rite Catholic.
 
I appreciate all the responses to my original question.

I understand it’s a unique situation and I didn’t give many details, so let me clarify them: yes, I was a practicing Orthodox Christian (though a bit lapsed for a period of time when I lived far from any OC of any kind). Since the marriage I’ve been going to a UGCC, mostly because I don’t wish to completely abandon my Orthodox tradition yet still embrace my wife’s faith.

Lately though I’ve been wondering about whether I inadvertently severed ties with the OCA. It doesn’t particularly bother me if I did, though obviously I would want to be able to receive the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church if we move somewhere where a UGCC is not available. Based on the responses I’ve received it is up to the Orthodox priest in question to approve or deny me, though my marriage will never be recognized in his eyes?

Maybe I should simply forget about the OCA completely given that they don’t recognize the validity of my marriage. The thought of severing ties with the Church I’ve belonged to since I was 8 years old naturally worries me though, and even though I’ve found essentially the perfect UGCC (Saint Elias in Brampton, Ontario), I have serious reservations about the nature of the Papacy.
 
The complexity arises in that the OP is not-- by the information he has given-- canonically a member of the Orthodox Church.
He can be Orthodox if he was accepted as Orthodox by the bishop and the community. It is possible that such a person is Chrismated into Orthodoxy and the OCA is very likely to have done just that,

I agree with you that Orthodox are Catholic,that has never changed.
He was baptized a Catholic, and one can presume that he was also confirmed and communed as the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches confer all three sacramtns of initation upon infants. He would be considered a Catholic from the Catholic Church’s point of view.
Actually, the UGCC rarely conferred all three sacraments of initiation at the same time in the English speaking world, at least for the last several generations.That situation is changing these days, but there are still a lot of people who like the whole “First Holy Communion” ritual and the gala around it, so there has been resistance to change on this point.

There are at least a few parishes which still do this, but the UGCC on the whole is striving to recover and restore it’s native traditional Orthodox practices.
 
That’s a really strange position? So the Catholic Church is willing to defer to the Orthodox because the Orthodox wouldn’t recognize the marriage is valid? Why is the Catholic Church concerned whether the Orthodox view it as valid or not? I must be lost on this one…?
It does, because otherwise the Orthodox Church does not recognize the marriage as valid.

The complexity arises in that the OP is not-- by the information he has given-- canonically a member of the Orthodox Church. He was baptized a Catholic, and one can presume that he was also confirmed and communed as the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches confer all three sacramtns of initation upon infants. He would be considered a Catholic from the Catholic Church’s point of view.
 
That’s a really strange position? So the Catholic Church is willing to defer to the Orthodox because the Orthodox wouldn’t recognize the marriage is valid? Why is the Catholic Church concerned whether the Orthodox view it as valid or not? I must be lost on this one…?
The CC would not want to create conflict between the couple if they each intended to practice their own faith. Questions about validity could certainly lead to resentment down the road. The CC is very careful about not creating difficulties between couples of different creeds because divorce is not an option. I am in a mixed marriage and I had to jump through a few hoops myself. My priest and Bishop seemed to take the matter very seriously. Surprised me a bit actually.
 
That’s a really strange position? So the Catholic Church is willing to defer to the Orthodox because the Orthodox wouldn’t recognize the marriage is valid? Why is the Catholic Church concerned whether the Orthodox view it as valid or not? I must be lost on this one…?
Although this is strictly my opinion, I would suppose for two reasons.

(1) Out of pastoral care for the Catholic approaching the Church for marriage to an Orthodox. A Catholic who marries an Orthodox ignoring Orthodox form could be repudiated by the Orthodox member-- i.e. they could divorce the Catholic claiming in their own Church the marriage was not a true marriage. The Catholic Church would seek to protect the Catholic from that possibility by complying with the Orthodox form requirements.

(2) The Orthodox Churches are true particular Churches. Their bishops have the authority to establish requirements for their members. And, the Church recognizes that authority. They have valid sacraments, and the Church would recognize the Orthodox priest as validly confering the sacrament.
 
He can be Orthodox if he was accepted as Orthodox by the bishop and the community. It is possible that such a person is Chrismated into Orthodoxy and the OCA is very likely to have done just that,
I was speaking about how the Catholic Church viewed the situation, not the Orthodox Church.
I agree with you that Orthodox are Catholic,that has never changed.
I mean Catholic, capital C, not catholic, small c.
 
I appreciate all the responses to my original question.

I understand it’s a unique situation and I didn’t give many details, so let me clarify them: yes, I was a practicing Orthodox Christian (though a bit lapsed for a period of time when I lived far from any OC of any kind). Since the marriage I’ve been going to a UGCC, mostly because I don’t wish to completely abandon my Orthodox tradition yet still embrace my wife’s faith.
YOu don’t have to abandon your Eastern tradition. You will always be UGCC even if there isn’t a parish nearby for you to attend. You can attend the Latin Rite validly. That does not make you a Latin Rite Catholic. Attending in **any **Catholic Rite fulfills your Mass obligation. Attending an Orthodox divine liturgy does not.

I think you really need to sit down with your UGCC priest and discuss your confusion. It is a shame your parents took you out of the UGCC when you were so young. Now you are very confused in your religious identity. Marrying a Latin Rite Catholic didn’t help that. Go talk to your priest.
Lately though I’ve been wondering about whether I inadvertently severed ties with the OCA. It doesn’t particularly bother me if I did, though obviously I would want to be able to receive the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church if we move somewhere where a UGCC is not available.
If no UGCC is available you can go to any Catholic Church-- any Rite. Going to the Orthodox Church does not fulfill your obligation.
 
Great analysis, 1ke! But at the end of your #2, while the sacraments are obviously valid, wouldn’t they be illicit from a Catholic point of view? As a Catholic bishop or priest, I still wouldn’t want a parishoner of mine marrying in the Orthodox Church. I would want it strictly a Catholic marriage. But heck, what do I know! 😛

Great post! Thanks so much…🙂
Although this is strictly my opinion, I would suppose for two reasons.

(1) Out of pastoral care for the Catholic approaching the Church for marriage to an Orthodox. A Catholic who marries an Orthodox ignoring Orthodox form could be repudiated by the Orthodox member-- i.e. they could divorce the Catholic claiming in their own Church the marriage was not a true marriage. The Catholic Church would seek to protect the Catholic from that possibility by complying with the Orthodox form requirements.

(2) The Orthodox Churches are true particular Churches. Their bishops have the authority to establish requirements for their members. And, the Church recognizes that authority. They have valid sacraments, and the Church would recognize the Orthodox priest as validly confering the sacrament.
 
Lately though I’ve been wondering about whether I inadvertently severed ties with the OCA.
Yes you did. It happens. But that doesn’t mean the situation is not recoverable.

Your issue is that you did not get a dispensation from your bishop. Actually, you could have married in the OCA because the RC accepts that. I don’t know the Orthodox church’s official position on your marriage. It would at the very least be considered as valid as a court ceremony. People usually forget the church weddings were not the norm in the early church, yet fidelity in those marriages was important to the church and community and the church did not want them to break up for any reason. Recall saint Monica, mother of saint Augustine, was married to a pagan in a civil ceremony. This was actually very common, and no one would suggest that those marriages were not valid to God.

Likewise bishops do not want to disturb the peace of an established home. I know this from experience myself.

On another matter, theologically, the Catholic church considers the two who marry to be the agents of the sacrament (I don’t know the exact terminology right now) with the priest as a witness.

In the Orthodox church the priest is the agent of the sacrament, you are married by the priest. There is a different operating principal at work.
It doesn’t particularly bother me if I did, though obviously I would want to be able to receive the Holy Mysteries in an Orthodox Church if we move somewhere where a UGCC is not available. Based on the responses I’ve received it is up to the Orthodox priest in question to approve or deny me, though my marriage will never be recognized in his eyes?
If you want an answer to that, you have to ask an Orthodox priest (or at least pose the question on an Orthodox website). However it is not up to the priest. If you ask the priest he will only be able to tell you what his bishop decides, or perhaps the synods policy.

If you are communing regularly in the UGCC, and have no plans to stop, I would not bother with trying to rectify your situation with the Orthodox church, because as an Orthodox Christian you would not normally commune in the Catholic church.

I suggest that if you do have reservations about the Papacy, you make a serious examination of conscience. You could be receiving unworthily.

The Roman Catholic church says this:
If anyone says that the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful:

Let him be anathema.

Also:

… we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman pontiff speaks Ex Cathedra, that is, when in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, he possesses by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.

Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.

So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: Let him be anathema.

So if you do not fully agree with the above, you are anathema to the Catholic church and are excommunicated Latae Senteniae. You would have plenty of company, there are many cafeteria Catholics who will present themselves for communion in spite of this decree, but the above is the church’s formal position on the subject composed about 140 years ago and never yet rescinded.
 
Don’t say this stuff, Michael! 😛 with all my “reservations” about indulgences, infallibility, treasury of merit, Honorius, and a few other issues, I’m going to get anathemized! :eek:
Yes you did. It happens. But that doesn’t mean the situation is not recoverable.

Your issue is that you did not get a dispensation from your bishop. Actually, you could have married in the OCA because the RC accepts that. I don’t know the Orthodox church’s official position on your marriage. It would at the very least be conside4red as valid as a court ceremony. People usually forget the church weddings were not the norm in the early church, yet fidelity in those marriages was important to the church and community and the church did not want them to break up for any reason. Recall saint Monica, mother of saint Augustine, was married to a pagan. This was actually very common, and no one would suggest that those marriages were not valid to God.

Likewise bishops do not want to disturb the peace of an established home. I know this from experience myself.

On another matter, theologically, the Catholic church considers the two who marry to be the agents of the sacrament (I don’t know the exact terminology right now) with the priest as a witness.

In the Orthodox church the priest is the agent of the sacrament, you are married by the priest. There is a different operating principal at work.

If you want an answer to that, you have to ask an Orthodox priest (or at least pose the question on an Orthodox website). However it is not up to the priest. If you ask the priest he will only be able to tell you what his bishop decides, or perhaps the synods policy.

If you are communing regularly in the UGCC, and have no plans to stop, I would not bother with trying to rectify your situation with the Orthodox church, because as an Orthodox Christian you would not normally commune in the Catholic church.

I suggest that if you do have reservations about the Papacy, you make a serious examination of conscience. You could be receiving unworthily.

The Catholic church says this:
If anyone says that the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful:

Let him be anathema.

Also:

… we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman pontiff speaks Ex Cathedra, that is, when in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, he possesses by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.

Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.

So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: Let him be anathema.

So if you do not fully agree with the above, you are anathema to the Catholic church and are excommunicated Latae Senteniae. You would have plenty of company, there are many cafeteria Catholics who will present themselves for communion in spite of this decree, but the above is the church’s formal position on the subject composed about 140 years ago and never yet rescinded.
 
…Going to the Orthodox Church does not fulfill your obligation.
As far as I can tell no one is claiming that an Orthodox DL is “invalid”. So, this means that going to Church where Christ Himself is truly sacrificed is not good enough and therefore does not fulfill anything. My question would be what is better than Christ so that a Christian can be fulfilled? :confused:
 
Yes you did. It happens. But that doesn’t mean the situation is not recoverable.

Your issue is that you did not get a dispensation from your bishop. Actually, you could have married in the OCA because the RC accepts that. I don’t know the Orthodox church’s official position on your marriage. It would at the very least be considered as valid as a court ceremony. People usually forget the church weddings were not the norm in the early church, yet fidelity in those marriages was important to the church and community and the church did not want them to break up for any reason. Recall saint Monica, mother of saint Augustine, was married to a pagan in a civil ceremony. This was actually very common, and no one would suggest that those marriages were not valid to God.

Likewise bishops do not want to disturb the peace of an established home. I know this from experience myself.

On another matter, theologically, the Catholic church considers the two who marry to be the agents of the sacrament (I don’t know the exact terminology right now) with the priest as a witness.

In the Orthodox church the priest is the agent of the sacrament, you are married by the priest. There is a different operating principal at work.

If you want an answer to that, you have to ask an Orthodox priest (or at least pose the question on an Orthodox website). However it is not up to the priest. If you ask the priest he will only be able to tell you what his bishop decides, or perhaps the synods policy.

If you are communing regularly in the UGCC, and have no plans to stop, I would not bother with trying to rectify your situation with the Orthodox church, because as an Orthodox Christian you would not normally commune in the Catholic church.

I suggest that if you do have reservations about the Papacy, you make a serious examination of conscience. You could be receiving unworthily.

The Roman Catholic church says this:
If anyone says that the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful:

Let him be anathema.

Also:

… we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman pontiff speaks Ex Cathedra, that is, when in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, he possesses by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.

Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.

So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: Let him be anathema.

So if you do not fully agree with the above, you are anathema to the Catholic church and are excommunicated Latae Senteniae. You would have plenty of company, there are many cafeteria Catholics who will present themselves for communion in spite of this decree, but the above is the church’s formal position on the subject composed about 140 years ago and never yet rescinded.
Very good points!
 
Great analysis, 1ke! But at the end of your #2, while the sacraments are obviously valid, wouldn’t they be illicit from a Catholic point of view? As a Catholic bishop or priest, I still wouldn’t want a parishoner of mine marrying in the Orthodox Church. I would want it strictly a Catholic marriage. But heck, what do I know! 😛

Great post! Thanks so much…🙂
No, it would not be illicit. The Catholic Church gives dispensations from form. The Orthodox Churches do not. Therefore, a Catholic can apply for and receive a dispensation from Catholic form, marry in the Orthodox Church, and then both Churches consider the marriage valid.
 
As far as I can tell no one is claiming that an Orthodox DL is “invalid”. So, this means that going to Church where Christ Himself is truly sacrificed is not good enough and therefore does not fulfill anything. My question would be what is better than Christ so that a Christian can be fulfilled? :confused:
A Catholic has the obligation to worship in the Catholic Church. The Orthodox, despite their valid sacraments, are out of communion with the Church.

Catholics can receive sacraments from Orthodox priests (provided the Orthodox priest would give the sacraments-- doubtful based on Orthodox practice) but it would be under the circumstances mentioned in these canons:

Can. 844 §1. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and ⇒ can. 861, §2.

§2. Whenever **necessity requires it **or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is **physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister **are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

Regarding Mass obligation, this canon applies to Catholics:

Can. 1247 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are obliged to participate in the Mass. Moreover, they are to abstain from those works and affairs which hinder the worship to be rendered to God, the joy proper to the Lord’s day, or the suitable relaxation of mind and body.

Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated **anywhere in a Catholic rite **either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.

Yes, the sacraments in the Orthodox Churches are valid so a Catholic who was attending Divine Liturgy *could *receive the Eucharist (if the Orthodox would allow it). But, attending Orthodox Divine Liturgy does **not **fulfill one’s obligation to assist at Mass.
 
It’s odd that they can take the Eucharist, receive, and have a valid Eucharistic experience and yet it doesn’t fullfill the obligation? That would imply the Orthodox Mass is illicit.
Yes, the sacraments in the Orthodox Churches are valid so a Catholic who was attending Divine Liturgy *could *receive the Eucharist (if the Orthodox would allow it). But, attending Orthodox Divine Liturgy does **not **fulfill one’s obligation to assist at Mass.
 
It’s odd that they can take the Eucharist, receive, and have a valid Eucharistic experience and yet it doesn’t fullfill the obligation? That would imply the Orthodox Mass is illicit.
No it isn’t odd.

After all, the Catholic Church does consider the Orthodox to be schismatic. The same would be said for a Catholic attending an SSPX Mass, Polish National Catholic, or other various groups.

None of these, Mass or Divine Liturgy, satisfy the Catholic Holy Day obligation because none of these groups-- while having valid Orders and Sacraments-- are in full communion with the Catholic Church.
 
I’d reply but I can bet the farm your reply will be “no, ___________” 😛 But what the heck…

What I find odd is that, if the other church is in schism, then the Catholic really has no business taking communion there in the first place for any reason unless it’s some sort of emergency. I can’t see why the Church is ok with them taking communion in a schismatic group and yet they must also go to the Catholic parish to fulfill the obligation. If the Eucharist is not only the body, blood, soul, divinity of Christ Jesus, but also the ultimate sign of unity, it’s odd to allow a Catholic to partake of a Eucharist that is not in alignment with Catholic unity itself. And if it doesn’t fullfill the obligation, then don’t allow it at all. If it is not in the unity of the Catholic Church, don’t partake. I guess I’m a simpleton here.
No it isn’t odd.

After all, the Catholic Church does consider the Orthodox to be schismatic. The same would be said for a Catholic attending an SSPX Mass, Polish National Catholic, or other various groups.

None of these, Mass or Divine Liturgy, satisfy the Catholic Holy Day obligation because none of these groups-- while having valid Orders and Sacraments-- are in full communion with the Catholic Church.
 
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