Orthodox (OCA) getting married in a RC Church

[mardukm]

Dear brother Adrian,

Before I accepted (or so I thought I did) the supremacy of the Pope, I had concluded (with the help of a prior thread) that it would be unethical to join the Catholic Church unless I accept Papal supremacy. You quoted from Vatican I and made your point and made me realism that I don’t fully accept it. The part were it says, “…or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful … Let him be anathema”. I don’t see that the authority is ordinary and immediate, except only in the Roman Church. So maybe I should not have joined communion with Rome; not until I had fully accepted this tenant. I also confess that I don’t see Papal authority coming by virtue of the see of the Roman Church, rather I see it as potentially independent of Rome and coming only by virtue of being the successor to St Peter. Without full agreement with Vatican I, and yet consenting to it by virtue of open communion with Rome, I might be bringing that anathema on me!

To be honest, when I read several of your past posts, it gave me the impression that you were imbibing an Absolutist Petrine view. I should have said something sooner. Now you reject the Absolutist Petrine view.

Don’t worry. I reject the Absolutist Petrine view as well, as do many Catholics, and we remain faithful Catholics.

I suspect you may have a misunderstanding of the terms “ordinary” and “immediate.” Those terms do not mean that the Pope has the right to administer the day-to-day affairs of a local diocese not his own, and thus potentially replace any local bishop. I wrote something explaining the matter in detail several months ago. I will attempt to find it and give you a link - if you are interested.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Do you deny that there are Catholics who openly deny the dogma? Eastern Catholics especially, I have personally met and known my fair share.

I’ve met them too. And 95% of the time, it is because they seem to have imbibed the misrepresentations that are common to the Absolutist and Low Petrine camps on the matter. So I would not say these were obstinate denials.

If people do not agree with the church’s dogma, they are cafeteria Catholics, and the church is already swarming with such people to the rafters. From where I sit the problem is getting worse year by year, should anyone encourage that?

Sure there are cafetria Catholics. But merely having doubts and reservations does not automatically give you a membership card to that group.

For those who are not certain I say ‘do an examination of conscience’ and clear the matter up.

Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope …

Absolutely great advice. And I hope this website provides them help with that examination.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[JohnVIII]

Don’t worry. I reject the Absolutist Petrine view as well, as do many Catholics, and we remain faithful Catholics.

I suspect you may have a misunderstanding of the terms “ordinary” and “immediate.”

Dear Bro. [user]mardukm[/user]:

There comes a point where what is written needs to be either accepted or rejected. I’ve read what you have written, and I wouldn’t mind going over it again, but there are things, as I’m sure you know, that I can’t harmonize together. At some point, two things just plain contradict each other. And the statement quoted from V1 is so strait forward I really can’t see bending it’s interpretation very far. At least not far enough to make me comfortable about it!

Knowing what I now know I don’t think I could marry (again) in the Catholic Church either. All the best wishes in the world to anyone and everyone who is happy with everything having to do with marriage in the Roman Church. It’s just me and how I can’t see marriage the way Rome does. Basically, I thought most every teaching from the Eastern Churches could remain the same if I only made the one change of accepting the Pope and enter into communion with Rome. But It’s not all fitting together as I thought it would.

When some Eastern Catholics tend to Latinize, I know they aren’t encouraged to do so from Rome, actually just the opposite. So why then does it happen? I now tend to think it is because it seems to be the only way to harmonize and simple “feel” in communion with Rome. That’s how I feel right now! I feel that I either must change to something more Latin or I should give up union with Rome and return to Orthodoxy. Anything in between this and I can’t find peace. If there is a deal breaker it will probably be the issues related to Rome’s views on marriage more than anything else.

The main issue I have with Latin marriage, in a nutshell, is that Rome see’s every aspect of it in such an extremely legalistic way that it turns a sacrament into contract, and this, in turn, makes the grace of God something that can controlled by laws. The very nature of grace itself needs to change in my thinking to make Latin views on marriage fit.

 

[alepine3]

Dear Bro. [user]mardukm[/user]:

There comes a point where what is written needs to be either accepted or rejected. I’ve read what you have written, and I wouldn’t mind going over it again, but there are things, as I’m sure you know, that I can’t harmonize together. At some point, two things just plain contradict each other. And the statement quoted from V1 is so strait forward I really can’t see bending it’s interpretation very far. At least not far enough to make me comfortable about it!

Knowing what I now know I don’t think I could marry (again) in the Catholic Church either. All the best wishes in the world to anyone and everyone who is happy with everything having to do with marriage in the Roman Church. It’s just me and how I can’t see marriage the way Rome does. Basically, I thought most every teaching from the Eastern Churches could remain the same if I only made the one change of accepting the Pope and enter into communion with Rome. But It’s not all fitting together as I thought it would.

When some Eastern Catholics tend to Latinize, I know they aren’t encouraged to do so from Rome, actually just the opposite. So why then does it happen? I now tend to think it is because it seems to be the only way to harmonize and simple “feel” in communion with Rome. That’s how I feel right now! I feel that I either must change to something more Latin or I should give up union with Rome and return to Orthodoxy. Anything in between this and I can’t find peace. If there is a deal breaker it will probably be the issues related to Rome’s views on marriage more than anything else.

The main issue I have with Latin marriage, in a nutshell, is that Rome see’s every aspect of it in such an extremely legalistic way that it turns a sacrament into contract, and this, in turn, makes the grace of God something that can controlled by laws. The very nature of grace itself needs to change in my thinking to make Latin views on marriage fit.

I am with you 100% on everything you mentioned. I simply cannot find peace with being in communion with Rome while being Orthodox in my personal theology and liturgical preferences (though I continue to attend and receive the mysteries at a Ukrainian Catholic Church). And what you said regarding the marriage ceremony in the RC Church is spot on, though I would add that the ceremony/ritual itself is deficient, as is the Mass itself.

 

[JohnVIII]

I am with you 100% on everything you mentioned. I simply cannot find peace with being in communion with Rome while being Orthodox in my personal theology and liturgical preferences (though I continue to attend and receive the mysteries at a Ukrainian Catholic Church). And what you said regarding the marriage ceremony in the RC Church is spot on, though I would add that the ceremony/ritual itself is deficient, as is the Mass itself.

It seems you and I have some common feelings.

Take the issue of purgatory, for example. At first I had no problem with Rome’s view of this and I saw the Eastern view a little different but wholly compatible. But then some hard core Roman Catholic had a dialog with me about this and spelled out in detail all the differences between Rome and Eastern and then added that if I did not agree in every detail with Rome then I am in opposition to the infallible Holy See!

For the most part things like this didn’t bother me much because I just figured that people have there opinions, but what really matters is what Rome’s real position is. Purgatory was just an example, it’s not a big deal with me, but the biggest issue is marriage.

I believe that the popes have never in history tried to impose it’s views about marriage upon the Eastern Churches, but many others from Rome have. In dialoging with Eastern Catholics it seems that most have concluded that the East has been wrong and they side with Rome against the teachings and customs of the East. Even some in the Orthodox Church have been likewise persuaded (one bishop in particular is OCA). I, however, believe that the East is right and Rome is not right in regard to its views on marriage, but Romes views on marriage can be tolerated.

This, my Eastern views about marriage, puts me at odds with alot of people in the RC Church! First of all, how can I feel at home with people is I am at odds with? This, for me, is a very strong push for me to Latinize or leave! Secondly, I excuse myself from the issue of infallibility about marriage because as I see it St Peter is NOT speaking if the pope is not addressing the whole Church (the East included). Since the pope has not ever tried to impose Rome’s view of marriage in the East then Rome’s views on marriage cannot be infallible. But how can I rest comfortably in communion with Rome in this manor when Vatican I clearly claims the full authority of St Peter even when the pope is not speaking to the whole Church and adds an “anathema” to anyone who believes otherwise?

I converted to the Roman Church and justified my conversion on accepting the pope as the head of the universal Church. Perhaps feeling like you belong is not everything, but since I know that the Eastern Orthodox are in the Church because they do indeed have the Body and Blood of Christ and because I could be wrong about my views about the pope. (BTW my RC priest told me that I think too highly of the pope and he said that he is nothing more than just the bishop of Rome!!!) Anyway, since I do feel more at home in Orthodoxy, perhaps the right thing for me to do is to return to the Eastern faith.

My wife is die hard Roman Catholic, so if I return to Orthodoxy she will remain Roman Catholic. I thought it would work out well if her and I were communing at the same Cup, so that’s why I sought justification to join the RC Church.

I wish you well Brother [user]alepine3[/user]