Orthodox or Catholic canon?

[JamesTheJust]

The Jewish canon was primarily a reaction to distinguish Judaism from Christianity. Prior to 70CE Christianity was considered a Jewish sect that had predominantly Jewish leadership and still worshipped in the synagouges.

Once the “battle” of which “version” of “Judaism” was going to be considered “Jewish” the predominantly Gentile led and Gentile membership of the growing sect of “Christians” established itself as a separate religion naturally used the Greek speaking Diaspora’s version of scriptures… While the predominantly Hebrew speaking Jews used the scriptures used in “Jewish” synagogues and now destroyed Temple, which had been the center of Jewish identity…the “split” between Judaism and Christianity was realized as Christians were now led by Greek speaking Gentiles with a predominantly Gentile membership AND Greek Gentile philosophy…no longer understanding nor care of understanding its Jewish roots.

Hmmm… explains why St John the Apostle, after 70 AD, wrote Revelation, which constantly makes reference to Jewish concepts, beliefs, and ideas.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

The apostles didn’t use the LXX, the LXX was translated FOR the Diaspora …those Jews who lived and settled outside of Palestine and were predominantly Greek speaking…for thiose Jews who had limited or no use of Hebrew as the Diaspora lived within the Greek world…not the Hebrew world. The Diaspora spoke Greek as their primary or only language.

Right, that’s why there’s a 75% quotation from the LXX in the New Testament.

 

[spina1953]

I am not sure but it seems to me to be some misconception concerning the LXX. First the are not books in the sense that at the time of the Apostles there were in scroll form. the New Testament for example were in codex form which we get our books form from. I wonder if the Apostles in using the LLX quoted from all of the scrolls or just those parts that gave credence to their arguments and teachings of what Jess taught them that they were preaching. I doubt that Jesus quoted from all of Scripture but from those what made His point in His teachings. At least it appears that way to me if I understand it correctly.

 

[Publisher]

Right, that’s why there’s a 75% quotation from the LXX in the New Testament.

Yes the writers of the New Testament. With Paul being perhaps the exception …although he was “familiar” and could relate to the Diaspora…the writers of the gospels. Pastoral letters., and Johanine literature were written by Jewish Christians educated in Greek for the growing Greek speaking Jewish converts…not withstanding “tradition” none of the original twelve wrote a single document we call the New Testament… The original twelve were fishermen and men of extremely limited education. Paul was very educated and was an ex exception and not the rule.

 

[Publisher]

Hmmm… explains why St John the Apostle, after 70 AD, wrote Revelation, which constantly makes reference to Jewish concepts, beliefs, and ideas.

John the son of Zebedee did not write the gospel that bears his name…nor did he write Revelation. I realize your tradition tells you he did but that is pious myth not backed up by the great majority of biblical scholars…not ALL scholars but by far the vast majority of scholarship do not hold your view.

 

[JamesTheJust]

John the son of Zebedee did not write the gospel that bears his name…nor did he write Revelation. I realize your tradition tells you he did but that is pious myth not backed up by the great majority of biblical scholars…not ALL scholars but by far the vast majority of scholarship do not hold your view.

I’d like to see a source for that sweeping claim. Also, the Church Fathers (i.e., the guys who knew St John, and their disciples), back up his authorship of Revelation.

 

[Publisher]

I’d like to see a source for that sweeping claim. Also, the Church Fathers (i.e., the guys who knew St John, and their disciples), back up his authorship of Revelation.

Friend I don’t have references at my fingertips…however you would be able to verify and research the information on your own or just pick up any journal reputable biblical studies…or take perhaps a class of such studies that has no religious “agenda” to be “faith affirming”…or if you have no desire to do that but hold to the fathers …that’s a choice as well. I state nothing that is not readily available to you. I have no “faith investment” either way. I but state a view the majority of biblical scholarship available even to a casual investigation.

 

[JamesTheJust]

Friend I don’t have references at my fingertips…however you would be able to verify and research the information on your own or just pick up any journal reputable biblical studies…or take perhaps a class of such studies that has no religious “agenda” to be “faith affirming”…or if you have no desire to do that but hold to the fathers …that’s a choice as well. I state nothing that is not readily available to you. I have no “faith investment” either way. I but state a view the majority of biblical scholarship available even to a casual investigation.

Since you have no sources, it is perfectly rational to dismiss your statement. If this information is as readily available as you claim, why don’t you provide it?

 

[Publisher]

Since you have no sources, it is perfectly rational to dismiss your statement. If this information is as readily available as you claim, why don’t you provide it?

Friend of course it is your right to dismiss my claims. I am not vested to “win an argument or debate”. I provided a comment that is verifiable to those who wish to research those alternate views I have put forth. If you have no interest to search yourself I have lost nothing…and I gain nothing by seeking to prove your beliefs wrong…I merely offered an alternate view and understanding of my own study and research and my own search for Truth for the lat 40 years.

I’m ok with your dismissal.

Peace to you friend

 

[prodromos]

John the son of Zebedee did not write the gospel that bears his name…nor did he write Revelation. I realize your tradition tells you he did but that is pious myth not backed up by the great majority of biblical scholars…not ALL scholars but by far the vast majority of scholarship do not hold your view.

St John’s scribe Prochorus wrote the Gospel and Revelation. John only dictated what to write.

 

[Publisher]

A good pious myth based on a tradition, not attested to by any biblical scholars.

 

[spina1953]

I am not sure scholars you are referring to Publisher, however Revelation and the Gospel of John are not myths. According to The Jerome Biblical Commentary it says that Papias according to Andrew of Caesarea, and Justin Martyr (Diologue with Trypho 81.4) attribute the Apocalypse to the Apostle John Melito of Sardis (Eusebius He4,26,2 Clement of Alexandria Paed.2.119,1; Quis div.salv.42; Origen Comm. in Ioan.2.5& 45, Irenaeus Adv.haer,4.30, 4;5.26,10;0 Hippolytus, Antichr.36;50;0 0Antimarcionite Prologue to Luke; Tertullian, Adv Marc,3.14;4.5.
The earliest witness to the authorship of the Fourth Gospel is Irenaeus of Lyons, writing ca.180AD, who tell us that it was producted at Ephesus by John the disciple of he Lord (Adv. haer.3.1,1; PG 7.844). He based his testimony on the teaching of Polycarp, the Bishop of Smyrna, whom he heard as a young man; and Polycarp, Irenaeus Avers, had known the Apostle John himself (Ep.ad Flor., in Ephesus, writing ca. AD 190 to Pope Victor, confirms tat John the Apostle had lived and died in Ephesus. The testimony of Irenaeus is corroborated by various other witnesses of the 2nd and 3rd cents. and would appear to have been common belief of the Church at the time Irenaeus wrote.

 

[JamesTheJust]

Great post spina!

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Yes the writers of the New Testament. With Paul being perhaps the exception …although he was “familiar” and could relate to the Diaspora…the writers of the gospels. Pastoral letters., and Johanine literature were written by Jewish Christians educated in Greek for the growing Greek speaking Jewish converts…not withstanding “tradition” none of the original twelve wrote a single document we call the New Testament… The original twelve were fishermen and men of extremely limited education. Paul was very educated and was an ex exception and not the rule.

In Post #78, you said the Apostles didn’t use the LXX.

Can you support your claim?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I am not sure scholars you are referring to Publisher, however Revelation and the Gospel of John are not myths. According to The Jerome Biblical Commentary it says that Papias according to Andrew of Caesarea, and Justin Martyr (Diologue with Trypho 81.4) attribute the Apocalypse to the Apostle John Melito of Sardis (Eusebius He4,26,2 Clement of Alexandria Paed.2.119,1; Quis div.salv.42; Origen Comm. in Ioan.2.5& 45, Irenaeus Adv.haer,4.30, 4;5.26,10;0 Hippolytus, Antichr.36;50;0 0Antimarcionite Prologue to Luke; Tertullian, Adv Marc,3.14;4.5.
The earliest witness to the authorship of the Fourth Gospel is Irenaeus of Lyons, writing ca.180AD, who tell us that it was producted at Ephesus by John the disciple of he Lord (Adv. haer.3.1,1; PG 7.844). He based his testimony on the teaching of Polycarp, the Bishop of Smyrna, whom he heard as a young man; and Polycarp, Irenaeus Avers, had known the Apostle John himself (Ep.ad Flor., in Ephesus, writing ca. AD 190 to Pope Victor, confirms tat John the Apostle had lived and died in Ephesus. The testimony of Irenaeus is corroborated by various other witnesses of the 2nd and 3rd cents. and would appear to have been common belief of the Church at the time Irenaeus wrote.

Lots of win here