orthodox or catholic?

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Actually, it is my position that ALL Christians are members of the Catholic Church since there is only one body of Christ which began calling itself the “Catholic Church” around the end of the first century. While it is a normative necessity that everyone be a formal member of the Catholic Church, it is not an absolute necessity.

Not everyone understands this nor would they accept it if told, but the rationale is clear. Anyone who is saved, even righteous pagans, will be saved because of Christ, and being a member of His body, the Church, is necessary for salvation.

So, the Orthodox are actually members of the Catholic Church by virtue of their baptism into Christ; Catholics, however, are not members of the Orthodox Church since that designation has no real meaning beyond mere human affiliation.
 
Nope. At least, I don’t think so. If a Greek marries a Syrian, and they are both considered Orthodox, then that wouldn’t be an interfaith marriage but an intrafaith marriage, wouldn’t it? 😉

Seriously, what do you think the Office of Whatever Marriage is concerned about? If a Greek marries a Syrian and then severs communion with the Greek Orthodox Church but remains Orthodox, why is this a problem?
Firstly, a Greek who marries a Syrian and starts attending an Antiochian Orthodox Church would not “sever communion” with the Greek Orthodox Church. He would simply stop attending his old parish and start attending a new one, as it is the same Orthodox Church, just under a different hierarchy. For me (a member of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese) to go commune in a ROCOR Church or Antiochian Church would not be to sever communion with the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, because it would not be some sort of schismatic act. Secondly, because the author makes it quite clear that his concern is with Greeks who “sever communion” with the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, it stands to reason then that such a scenario is precisely not a problem. In fact, I cannot find any place where the article claims that it would be a problem for an Orthodox Christian to marry another Orthodox Christian and to wind up attending a different parish.
If an Italian Catholic marries an Irish Catholic, do you think Rome is in a panic? No, because that is not an interfaith marriage. However, if the Catholic girl marries the Baptist boy, and then leaves the Catholic Church - that would be a concern because that IS an interfaith marriage.
And that is precisely what the author is concerned with. The author doesn’t express concern about marriages between Orthodox Christians.
So, back to my original point…why do you think the author(s) of the article are sounding this alarm concerning “interfaith” marriages and the grim future of the Greek Orthodox Church in America?
Because when you strip the hyperbole away, the author it attempting to convey the importance of ministering to those who enter into interfaith marriages to prevent them from falling into indifferentism.
And more to my overall point, doesn’t the article’s main premise (namely, that Greek Orthodoxy in America could be in serious trouble “in the very near future”) suggest to you that Orthodoxy’s claim to be the one, true Church cannot be true?
No, because that is a poor reason for supposing that something is not true. We cannot know God’s reasons for allowing things to happen as they do, so to suppose that we know that such and such body cannot be true because of historical circumstance is not sound thinking and in general it is also not theologically sound, because it presupposes some sort of Calvinistic notion of irresistible grace. To paraphrase St. John of Damascus, there is that which is within our control, and that which is left to providence providence, so if there should be a certain failing of the Church in some place because of what is within our control, this does not reflect a sign of abandonment by God, but a failure of men. The Catholicity of the Church is precisely what makes it so that if a failure of one of the Church’s instantiations in time does not falsify the Church. For example, would you be willing to suppose that the destruction of the North African Church or of the Latin churches of the crusader kingdoms falsifies the claims of your ecclesial body to be true?

We can only assess the truth of some doctrine through considering the teaching of the Scriptures as understood through the Tradition which is passed down to us through the liturgy and the writings of the fathers. Anything else is intellectually quite lazy.
I asked Ryan Black this previously: could you please specify the century or centuries to which you are referring when you claim that the the “Church of the East” was the largest?
By the 10th Century, the Church of the East stretched all the way from Egypt through modern-day Iraq and Iran to India and China.
 
Actually, it is my position that ALL Christians are members of the Catholic Church since there is only one body of Christ which began calling itself the “Catholic Church” around the end of the first century. While it is a normative necessity that everyone be a formal member of the Catholic Church, it is not an absolute necessity.

Not everyone understands this nor would they accept it if told, but the rationale is clear. Anyone who is saved, even righteous pagans, will be saved because of Christ, and being a member of His body, the Church, is necessary for salvation.

So, the Orthodox are actually members of the Catholic Church by virtue of their baptism into Christ; Catholics, however, are not members of the Orthodox Church since that designation has no real meaning beyond mere human affiliation.
Hi Randy. After hearing your name mentioned, I don’t know how many times, I decided to read some of your posts and see for myself. 🙂

Wrt the above post, I’ll make one little comment: on this forum, “Catholic” (not to be confused with “catholic”) refers specifically to the Roman Communion. (Lest I offend GKC or some other poster, let me stress that I’m just speaking of the convention on this website. I’m aware that it is different on other blogs and fora, e.g. Fr Robert Hart’s blog where he describes himself as Catholic.)
 
Hi Randy. After hearing your name mentioned, I don’t know how many times, I decided to read some of your posts and see for myself. 🙂

Wrt the above post, I’ll make one little comment: on this forum, “Catholic” (not to be confused with “catholic”) refers specifically to the Roman Communion. (Lest I offend GKC or some other poster, let me stress that I’m just speaking of the convention on this website. I’m aware that it is different on other blogs and fora, e.g. Fr Robert Hart’s blog where he describes himself as Catholic.)
I gladly concede you your convention.

But, sure, I got my own.

GKC
 
I gladly concede you your convention.

But, sure, I got my own.

GKC
:cool:

Oddly enough, I think what bothers me most is that when we (we in the RomanCommunion I mean) say “The term ‘Catholic’ belongs to us and you guys can’t use it” very often the response of many Protestants (and many Orthodox?) is something like “Well we wouldn’t want that term anyhow.” Reminds me of Aesop’s character who said a fruit was “probably sour anyway”. :hmmm:
 
There are areas where Catholicism (indeed Christianity in general) has faded dramatically; however, saying that Catholicism is no longer a thriving force in those regions does not diminish the fact that at one time, Catholicism had made disciples of those nations…a fulfillment of the Great Commission which Orthodoxy has never achieved.

😉
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

I’m gonna go on a limb here and say that we aren’t there yet, and you’re gonna need our (and Orthodox) help.

See China.
 
:cool:

Oddly enough, I think what bothers me most is that when we (we in the RomanCommunion I mean) say “The term ‘Catholic’ belongs to us and you guys can’t use it” very often the response of many Protestants (and many Orthodox?) is something like “Well we wouldn’t want that term anyhow.” Reminds me of Aesop’s character who said a fruit was “probably sour anyway”. :hmmm:
It is not my area of expertise, but it is possible that these protestants of whom you speak, and perhaps these Orthodox, likewise, are motley, in some dimensions.Such things happen.

GKC
 
By the 10th Century, the Church of the East stretched all the way from Egypt through modern-day Iraq and Iran to India and China.
First, I thank you for your thoughtful reply to my previous post. We rarely agree on the subject matter, but I do respect your opinions which are well-crafted.

Second, in the 10th Century, would the Bishops/Patriarchs of the Church of the East, as you geographically defined it above, been in full communion with the Bishop of Rome?

And would a person living in what is now Iraq or India or China in that era have considered himself to be Catholic or Orthodox?
 
Hi Randy. After hearing your name mentioned, I don’t know how many times, I decided to read some of your posts and see for myself. 🙂

Wrt the above post, I’ll make one little comment: on this forum, “Catholic” (not to be confused with “catholic”) refers specifically to the Roman Communion. (Lest I offend GKC or some other poster, let me stress that I’m just speaking of the convention on this website. I’m aware that it is different on other blogs and fora, e.g. Fr Robert Hart’s blog where he describes himself as Catholic.)
Yes, of course. I’m not sure I understand your point.

It is my contention that ALL Christians are members of the one body of Christ which began calling itself the “Catholic Church” as early as the end of the first century. Evidence for this appears in Ignatius’ Letter to the Smyrnaeans (ca. AD 107).

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter’s successor, “is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful.” “For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.”

“The whole Church” referred to here is not limited to those who are Catholics but includes all Christians.
 
:cool:

Oddly enough, I think what bothers me most is that when we (we in the RomanCommunion I mean) say “The term ‘Catholic’ belongs to us and you guys can’t use it” very often the response of many Protestants (and many Orthodox?) is something like “Well we wouldn’t want that term anyhow.” Reminds me of Aesop’s character who said a fruit was “probably sour anyway”. :hmmm:
I find the opposite to be true; everyone, Lutherans included, wants to be called “catholic”, and this waters down the “brand” so to speak. Augustine witnessed this same phenomenon in his day:

“[T]he very name of Catholic . . . belongs to this Church alone . . . so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house” (Against the Letter of Mani Called `The Foundation’ 4:5 [AD 397]).
 
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

I’m gonna go on a limb here and say that we aren’t there yet, and you’re gonna need our (and Orthodox) help.

See China.
Mark 9:38-40 New International Version (NIV)
38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” 39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us.

That said, Christian unity was *supposed *to be a powerful witness to the unbelieving world.
 
You forgot a fourth kind of lie: an assertion made without supporting evidence…like the one you just made by claiming that this research is itself a lie.

Feel free to present any evidence you may have that the research performed by this group is in error.

Thanks in advance.
 
Did you read the second article?
I glanced over the various maps and graphs, etc. and read page four where I see that the Orthodox presence here in NC is growing…something I would have guessed since A) the overall population of North Carolina is exploding, B) the Catholic population here has grown rapidly to the point that we are building a new, 2,000-seat Cathedral in Raleigh, and C) a new Orthodox Church was built not far from my home. I suspect that many of the parish closures in New York and Massachusetts are a result of this migration to the South.

Beyond this, is there something you wish to bring to my attention?
 
So far, you have made your point that you disagree with my argument, but you have not actually disproven it.

And yes, Christianity was not ALWAYS the largest religion in the world (it began with 120 people in an upper room in Jerusalem), but the Church in full communion with Rome was and is the largest Christian “denomination”.

But, hey, if someone has evidence to the contrary, I’m always happy to adjust my thinking based on facts that are brought to my attention…👍
 
I glanced over the various maps and graphs, etc. and read page four where I see that the Orthodox presence here in NC is growing…something I would have guessed since A) the overall population of North Carolina is exploding, B) the Catholic population here has grown rapidly to the point that we are building a new, 2,000-seat Cathedral in Raleigh, and C) a new Orthodox Church was built not far from my home. I suspect that many of the parish closures in New York and Massachusetts are a result of this migration to the South.

Beyond this, is there something you wish to bring to my attention?
The article specifically states that within the last decade, the number of parishes in America (which is good indicator of general religious health, since it is linked to the availability of funding and the availability of those with religious vocations, something which headcounts do not indicate well) and monastic communities has grown by 15%, and that between 1936 (when religious census data was last taken) and 2010 (based on an estimated 797,600 members), the number of adherents has increased by 131%. If we use the estimate posted in the other article you link (1.2 million), then the number of adherents has increased by about 247%. Likewise, according to this census, the number of parishes in 1936 was 659, which increased to 1936 in 2010, an increase of about 194%.

Just for comparative purposes, Catholicism according to the same census had about 19.9 million adherents in 1936. At present, the number of parish-connected Catholics is thought to be around 66.6 million, and the number of self-identified Catholics is around 76.7 million. That would indicate an increase in Catholic population between 235% and 285% (depending on which figure is used). The number of churches recorded in 1936 was 18,409, and in 2014, according to CARA, the number of Catholic parishes in the US is 17,483, which would mark a slight decrease in parishes since 1936 by 5%.

At the very least, I think the numbers show that claims to the effect that Orthodoxy is in danger of becoming “moribund” in America are exaggerated.
 
First, I thank you for your thoughtful reply to my previous post. We rarely agree on the subject matter, but I do respect your opinions which are well-crafted.

Second, in the 10th Century, would the Bishops/Patriarchs of the Church of the East, as you geographically defined it above, been in full communion with the Bishop of Rome?

And would a person living in what is now Iraq or India or China in that era have considered himself to be Catholic or Orthodox?
Neither. The Church of the East was, broadly speaking, Nestorian, having rejected the Council of Ephesus.
 
Second, in the 10th Century, would the Bishops/Patriarchs of the Church of the East, as you geographically defined it above, been in full communion with the Bishop of Rome?
I’m fairly certain I’ve answered that question. No, they were not in communion with the Bishops of Rome, and had not been since the 5th century (sometime in the 420s).
 
^^ Right, the ACoE hasn’t been in full communion with Rome since the fifth century … Or maybe I should say Rome hasn’t been in full communion with the ACoE since the fifth century.
 
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