Orthodox Perspective: On Ancient Sin and the Immaculate Conception

[ThereseFrancis]

I now come to understand that the concept of original sin in the West is the same as the concept of ancient sin in the East (although there is mostly confusion and misunderstanding of Orthodox about Catholics and vice versa on the ground about this).

As I view it, according to Orthodox, it is Adam who is guilty of sin, but the whole human race continues to receive the penalty of this sin though are not guilty. There is a difference in formulation (without using words like guilt, penalty, etc.; and using the word “sin” is two manners) but the Catholic Church maintains the same as is found in CCC 404:

“How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.” (My emphasis added)

According to Catholic dogma, however, Mary was saved and redeemed by Christ by protecting her from this “sin (in a sense of the fallen state)” or “penalty”. My question is now this: according to the Orthodox Faith, if there is no Immaculate Conception and Mary was conceived in this “fallen state” or “penalty” from the sins of Adam, how can she be full of grace, all-holy theotokos?

 

[pacloc]

I think the bigger difference is the development of the understanding of Christ’s nature in the RCC. The Orthodox Church teaches that Christ became like us in our fallen state but without sin. He wanted to be born with the consequences of sin so that He could overcome them in His humanity that He took from us through the Holy Virgin. For her to be Immaculate as the RCC teaches, they do not believe that she was born with the consequences of the fall, but was more like Adam and Eve before the fall. This makes no sense, since even Christ was not born with this nature. Christ being God, however did not have the inward tendency to sin, where the Holy Virgin did. The difference between Her and most of the rest of mankind is that she never sinned, although capable of sinning. St. Gregory Palamas teaches it was because of a series of holy parents and grandparents that brought the Holy Virgin up to be Holy, and of course her entering the Temple to live at the age of 3 until her betrothal to St. Joseph.

 

[Mary888]

In Orthodoxy we were told that she was cleansed of the original sin through her own efforts and faith. God rewarded her. And the epitomes of those rewards are the fact that He chose her to be His mother (which implies that she had some sort of struggle before her own birth) and the Assumption body and soul.
It is funny in a way, after being told that in the West Virgin Mary is venerated in exaggerated way to realize that actually the Orthodox gives her some extra qualities like being able to find her own Salvation before her birth on earth and before Christ was born. This point is very unclear to me. The Orthodox priests I asked told me that there are no proofs in Scripture or otherwise of her Immaculate Conception so speculation shouldn’t be made. Not clear enough for me.
The Eastern Orthodox Coptic Christians, who, being closer geographically to the place where it all happened do believe in the Immaculate Conception (it is said that the Catholic church adopted this idea from them). They also have a series of popular stories about her and Christ outside what is written in the Scriptures like for example what happened when they fled to Egypt. There are some private revelations of the Coptic Patriarch of Alexandria in the 4th century in which Virgin Mary herself describes certain details of her life: like the fact that Jesus was not just a baby like any other, could speak and walk before his age and perform miracles (like punishing a merciless city who refused to help his mother water), how he sent away a witch in Egypt together with her demons and others. Their explanation is that Virgin Mary was not only preserved by God but prepared personally by God and the Angels for her role here on earth. Also were known to God the prophets and some of the saints in the Bible like St. Anna who was sent on earth to give birth to Virgin Mary.
The Orthodox Church usually avoids the idea of “sent saints” because many people may think they are sent and special too when they are not but it does not mean that they cannot become saints. And it also implies an act of unfairness of God, I was said, to say that He gives some a bigger inclination for sainthood than to others and it is said this cannot be - God is always fair because He is perfect. I am confused here too since Jesus said “I have chosen you, you haven’t chosen me.”
I concluded that the Immaculate Conception of Mary has always been a popular belief in Middle East Christianity and the Catholic Church chose to accept this belief as dogma while the Orthodox did not.

 

[Kei]

If you don’t mind my asking, why are you Orthodox rather than Catholic? If I recall you had a miraculous experience in a Catholic Church?

 

[pacloc]

being able to find her own Salvation before her birth on earth and before Christ was born

What exactly are you referring to? All mankind is saved by Christ and His victory over death and His resurrection. The filling of the Holy Spirit that she experienced since conception was not the exact same thing as the salvation that Christ brought about later. It was closer to the holiness of the prophets and other Old Testament Saints. She was gifted because of God’s foreknowledge of her and because of Her Holy parents that conceived her without passion in old age. The whole point of the Jewish religion was to bring the Holy Virgin into being; and from her, Jesus Christ.

When God says that He has chosen us and not us choosing Him, He is emphasizing His Divine Plan from all eternity and His foreknowledge that makes it clear that those that are saved are only saved because God has helped them from their very beginning. The wicked are also helped, but turn away from the help, so you could say they were chosen too, but in the end did not go with God.

 

[ziapueblo]

ThereseFrancis,

You are correct. The Orthodox believe that everyone bears the consequences of the first sin but that only Adam is guilty of that sin. All humanity does not share in his guilt but in the punishment. We are tempted in sin and through committing our own personal sins we are guilty.

To make a long story short the Orthodox do not believe in the Immaculate Conception. The guilt of the first sin is not transmitted. In Orthodox theology, if guilt is not transmitted then we are born without sin, so therefore, our Most Holy Lady the Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary was born without sin. On August 15 the Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic Churches celebrate the Dormition of Mary, when she “fell asleep.” The punishment of the first sin is death.

Of course in the east Mary is called “immaculate” and “sanctified” but in the context of the Orthodox view of original sin. Theologians have held to the view that a special grace was given to the Mother of God and she did not commit any personal sin. Others have asserted that Mary was sanctified through her response to the Archangel Gabriel at the annunciation, “Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word” (Luke 1:38).

ZP

 

[Mary888]

I have received messages in bortj Churches. Moreso in the Orthodox. But I love both. Miracles I received in neither but that is ok. This must be about my lot in life more than the churches.
I feel no reason to give up the church I am baltized and confessed into. I have no reason either like a sensible reason.
I dont know… enough answer? Sorry I am not great at logic. God did not make me this way.

 

[Mary888]

Father the fact that her parents conceived her without passion does not mean an Immaculate Conception. Immaculate Conception is like Christ’s - no sex involved. Sorry for being so blunt. Did St. Anna and Joseph do it? It’s a mystery for reasonable fact. It is not a mystery that Virgin Mary and St. Joseph did not do it. And she was a virgin. And He was born.
Sorry for the high school drama speech but this is the core of what we are talking about.

 

[pacloc]

I agree that she was not immaculately conceived in the same way that Christ was. And of course Her parents still had to have the conjugal act, which means there was some amount of passion involved, but that it was not the passion that brought about the child, but the need for the child that had the small amount of passion as a necessary experience. Being very old was part of the blessing from God that the child would be dispassionate to a very high degree. Part of our lives as Christians is to attain dispassion because it will be the only experience in the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[MatthaiosX]

In Orthodoxy, we call it ancestral sin as opposed to original sin. Original sin implies guilt from birth. Ancestral sin means that we inherit a sinful disposition, but we are not guilty of any sin until we personally commit a sin. The Theotokos chose not to commit any personal sin. It’s that simple.

 

[Kei]

In Catholicism, there’s a difference between original and actual sin, in that we are spiritually dead due to original sin and come to life in Baptism.
It is not a sin counted against us as actual sin is.

In orthodoxy, do you practice infant baptism? In Catholicism this makes complete sense, as they are dead prior to the baptism.

 

[TigerLily-1]

In orthodoxy, do you practice infant baptism? In Catholicism this makes complete sense, as they are dead prior to the baptism.

Yes, it’s my understanding that the Orthodox do Baptize infants and it’s by immersion, not sprinkling. The baby is also Chrismated (confirmed) and receives first Communion and becomes a full member of the Church.

 

[Kei]

But, why, if they don’t believe in original sin as such?

 

[ziapueblo]

Because we are born again in baptism.

 

[TigerLily-1]

There is probably a different theology involved but I’m not sure what it is. God in Orthodoxy is not as punitive.

 

[TigerLily-1]

Didn’t see your post before I posted.

You’re right . . . thank you!

 

[Kei]

Well yes, but why for babies?

Actually if original sin isn’t a thing I have a little difficulty understanding the theology behind baptism. How are you born again if you were never dead to begin with (certainly children have no yet sinned)?

 

[ziapueblo]

We are incorporated into the family of God. We also receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Why deny a child that gift?

 

[ThereseFrancis]

In Orthodoxy, we call it ancestral sin as opposed to original sin. Original sin implies guilt from birth.

No. Refer to my original post. This is not what Catholics believe in. This is a common misconception about Catholic doctrine by other Christians (and maybe even by some Catholics themselves!).

In Catholicism this makes complete sense, as they are dead prior to the baptism.

False as well. If they are “dead” then how about unbaptized babies? The Catholic Church has already spoken that they do not go into hell but are entrusted to the mercy of God that despite their fallen state that they may be entered into heaven most especially because they are not guilty of any sin.

The guilt of the first sin is not transmitted.

But the Catholic Church believes in the same thing.

The Orthodox Church teaches that Christ became like us in our fallen state but without sin.

Very interesting! This is the first time that I have heard of this. However, if this were to be believed, how then could Jesus Christ be God? After all, you can still be fully human without being in the fallen state (as was Adam before the Fall).

In Orthodoxy we were told that she was cleansed of the original sin through her own efforts and faith.

Woah. Now I find this difficult to believe for who can cleanse himself/herself from the consequences of the fall? This would imply that another person could be born and not be in a fallen state by cleansing himself/herself through his/her own efforts and faith.

 

[Kei]

False as well. If they are “dead” then how about unbaptized babies? The Catholic Church has already spoken that they do not go into hell but are entrusted to the mercy of God that despite their fallen state that they may be entered into heaven most especially because they are not guilty of any sin.

You are adding onto the Church’s words.
Indeed, that is why it was presumed they would go to Hell and hence Limbo, for without baptism they were not alive spiritually.

The Church indeed says we entrust them to God’s Mercy. But She does NOT say for certain where they go; She does not say they do not go to Hell. We can hope not, but personally I like to prepare for the worst and hope for the best.