Orthodox question

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I suspect that it is due more to weakness than to wisdom.

In other words, there is nobody in the Orthodox Church who can “call the shots,” so to speak.
It’s been that way since at least the 250’s, when Cyprian of Carthage and Stephen of Rome had their brouhaha over rebaptizing heretics and schismatics. Cyprian argued that we should leave the decision to the individual bishops and let them render account for their actions on the day of judgment. Stephen wanted to impose Rome’s manner of receiving heretics and schismatics upon the whole Church. Cyprian’s understanding caught on in the East, was repeated in Basil’s first canonical epistle, approved at Trullo, and has remained that way ever since. We certainly do have an authority on the matter, and the question has already been mooted, and a clear, authoritative answer has already existed for nearly a millennium and a half.
 
I. As to your enquiry about the Cathari, a statement has already been made, and you have properly reminded me that it is right to follow the custom obtaining in each region, because those, who at the time gave decision on these points, held different opinions concerning their baptism. But the baptism of the Pepuzeni seems to me to have no authority; and I am astonished how this can have escaped Dionysius, acquainted as he was with the canons. The old authorities decided to accept that baptism which in nowise errs from the faith. Thus they used the names of heresies, of schisms, and of unlawful congregations. By heresies they meant men who were altogether broken off and alienated in matters relating to the actual faith; by schisms men who had separated for some ecclesiastical reasons and questions capable of mutual solution; by unlawful congregations gatherings held by disorderly presbyters or bishops or by uninstructed laymen. As, for instance, if a man be convicted of crime, and prohibited from discharging ministerial functions, and then refuses to submit to the canons, but arrogates to himself episcopal and ministerial rights, and persons leave the Catholic Church and join him, this is unlawful assembly. To disagree with members of the Church about repentance, is schism. Instances of heresy are those of the Manichæans, of the Valentinians, of the Marcionites, and of these Pepuzenes; for with them there comes in at once their disagreement concerning the actual faith in God. So it seemed good to the ancient authorities to reject the baptism of heretics altogether, but to admit that of schismatics, on the ground that they still belonged to the Church.

As to those who assembled in unlawful congregations, their decision was to join them again to the Church, after they had been brought to a better state by proper repentance and rebuke, and so, in many cases, when men in orders had rebelled with the disorderly, to receive them on their repentance, into the same rank. Now the Pepuzeni are plainly heretical, for, by unlawfully and shamefully applying to Montanus and Priscilla the title of the Paraclete, they have blasphemed against the Holy Ghost. They are, therefore, to be condemned for ascribing divinity to men; and for outraging the Holy Ghost by comparing Him to men. They are thus also liable to eternal damnation, inasmuch as blasphemy against the Holy Ghost admits of no forgiveness. What ground is there, then, for the acceptance of the baptism of men who baptize into the Father and the Son and Montanus or Priscilla? For those who have not been baptized into the names delivered to us have not been baptized at all. So that, although this escaped the vigilance of the great Dionysius, we must by no means imitate his error. The absurdity of the position is obvious in a moment, and evident to all who are gifted with even a small share of reasoning capacity.

The Cathari are schismatics; but it seemed good to the ancient authorities, I mean Cyprian and our own Firmilianus, to reject all these, Cathari, Encratites, and Hydroparastatæ;, by one common condemnation, because the origin of separation arose through schism, and those who had apostatized from the Church had no longer on them the grace of the Holy Spirit, for it ceased to be imparted when the continuity was broken. The first separatists had received their ordination from the Fathers, and possessed the spiritual gift by the laying on of their hands. But they who were broken off had become laymen, and, because they are no longer able to confer on others that grace of the Holy Spirit from which they themselves are fallen away, they had no authority either to baptize or to ordain. And therefore those who were from time to time baptized by them, were ordered, as though baptized by laymen, to come to the church to be purified by the Church’s true baptism. Nevertheless, since it has seemed to some of those of Asia that, for the sake of management of the majority, their baptism should be accepted, let it be accepted. We must, however, perceive the iniquitous action of the Encratites; who, in order to shut themselves out from being received back by the Church have endeavoured for the future to anticipate readmission by a peculiar baptism of their own, violating, in this manner even their own special practice. My opinion, therefore, is that nothing being distinctly laid down concerning them, it is our duty to reject their baptism, and that in the case of any one who has received baptism from them, we should, on his coming to the church, baptize him. If, however, there is any likelihood of this being detrimental to general discipline, we must fall back upon custom, and follow the fathers who have ordered what course we are to pursue. For I am under some apprehension lest, in our wish to discourage them from baptizing, we may, through the severity of our decision, be a hindrance to those who are being saved. If they accept our baptism, do not allow this to distress us. We are by no means bound to return them the same favour, but only strictly to obey canons. On every ground let it be enjoined that those who come to us from their baptism be anointed in the presence of the faithful, and only on these terms approach the mysteries. I am aware that I have received into episcopal rank Izois and Saturninus from the Encratite following. I am precluded therefore from separating from the Church those who have been united to their company, inasmuch as, through my acceptance of the bishops, I have promulgated a kind of canon of communion with them.

Basil Epistle 188.1 (‘first canonical epistle’)
 
It would be interesting to see what the Orthodox Church would be like if there were.
You can look to the Coptic Church, which has a Pope (and has had one for centuries more than the Latins have) and still has essentially the same “We don’t make across-the-board judgments on other churches’ sacraments” stance as the EO do. For us, it is enough that we are not in communion with them. If the rules must be bent, it is on an individual level as a pastoral response to local conditions, saying nothing about the “validity” or what have you of the other church or what it does (e.g., Greeks and Copts receiving sacraments in the Greek Church in Alexandria does not give me the right to receive in the Greek Church here in Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA).
 
You can look to the Coptic Church, which has a Pope (and has had one for centuries more than the Latins have) and still has essentially the same “We don’t make across-the-board judgments on other churches’ sacraments” stance as the EO do. For us, it is enough that we are not in communion with them. If the rules must be bent, it is on an individual level as a pastoral response to local conditions, saying nothing about the “validity” or what have you of the other church or what it does (e.g., Greeks and Copts receiving sacraments in the Greek Church in Alexandria does not give me the right to receive in the Greek Church here in Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA).
The Pope of the Coptic Church still does not call the shots, according to The Encyclopedia Coptica:
The Pope of the Coptic Church, although highly regarded by all Copts, does not enjoy any state of supremacy or infallibility.
It is that weakness which I suspect is the cause of the following, which I found to be both startling and troublesome:
The Church does not have (and actually refuses to canonize) an official position vis-à-vis some controversial issues (e.g. abortion). While the church has clear teachings about such matters (e.g. abortion interferes with God’s will), it is the position of the Church that such matters are better resolved on a case-by-case basis by the father of confession, as opposed to having a blanket canon that makes a sin of such practices.
 
The Pope of the Coptic Church still does not call the shots, according to The Encyclopedia Coptica:

It is that weakness which I suspect is the cause of the following, which I found to be both startling and troublesome:
Wow! That is extremely troubling. That’s reason enough right there to rule out that Church as an option if I were searching.
 
Wow! That is extremely troubling. That’s reason enough right there to rule out that Church as an option if I were searching.
That’s strange, because I know there are ancient canons from the East which prescribe a certain amount of time of penance for a woman who has killed an infant or procured an abortion.

St. Basil, for example, writes about the canonical practice for dealing with abortion in the same epistle quoted above:II. The woman who purposely destroys her unborn child is guilty of murder. With us there is no nice enquiry as to its being formed or unformed. In this case it is not only the being about to be born who is vindicated, but the woman in her attack upon herself; because in most cases women who make such attempts die. The destruction of the embryo is an additional crime, a second murder, at all events if we regard it as done with intent. The punishment, however, of these women should not be for life, but for the term of ten years. And let their treatment depend not on mere lapse of time, but on the character of their repentance.

Basil Epistle 188.2While I am aware that the Copts do not regard St. Basil’s position to be canonical, as the council of Trullo came centuries after Chalcedon, it would be strange if the Copts did not at least still have some pre-existing canons on record somewhere regarding abortion. Perhaps they are trying to emphasize that the issue must be approached pastorally, as pointed out by St. Basil’s prescription, “let their treatment depend not on mere lapse of time, but on the character of their repentance,” but did so in a poor manner, making it sound like there is no official position on abortion, when what they meant to say is that there is no official canonically mandated penance for abortion. :hmmm:
 
It would be interesting to see what the Orthodox Church would be like if there were.
It’s not one man’s religion.

It is a common inheritance, a community of believers. This we know from the earliest canons. It was never a “one man calls the shots” kind of religion. The church was always numerous communities gathered into synods. The synods determine for themselves how they will operate internally, and they are not to control other synods aside from mission endeavors.

The synodal form of governance is the oldest form, actually predating emancipation. Within the synod it can be decided how much authority individual bishops (like the bishops of the great cities generally) have, and how they will exercise it. Some synods, like the Copts for example, might have one very strong Metropolitan, but he doesn’t claim or pretend to have any authority over other synods. Thus, the Pope of Alexandria does not claim the have the right to interfere in the Jacobite church, or the Armenian church, or even the Ethiopian church which was once run as a Coptic mission.

Other synods are much more collegial. The OCA is more like that, and as I understand it the Polish church too.

Finally, as to the churches out of communion, the church does not claim to know anything definite simply because those people are not *in *the church. If for any reason a band of believers has taken up new beliefs, or has chosen to abandon the original teachings of the church, they have to be cut off. It is a type of quarantine, and the church cannot recognize any teaching authority in anyone proclaiming those things. This is for the good of the church, a safeguard. Church leaders who allow their faithful to be led astray, or whole scandalize the faithful and discredit the church, will have to answer for every one before Jesus Christ on judgment day. Any bishop who allows a heresy to spread under his watch, even if he himself does not promote it, will answer for this before God. The bishop, all bishops, will have to oppose it vigorously and cut off those who will not repent.

We didn’t invent this system, we inherited it and it has worked for two thousand years. To suddenly think “we need a strongman who can command us” after two thousand years would be silly. When it has been tried it only ultimately served to facilitate the spread of heresy and corruption.

If pressed for a decision (as if that were necessary) the default position would have to be that people claiming to be church leaders yet are not Orthodox have no authority and no ability to proceed. This has to be assumed for the protection of the flock. This is no different from assuming that a grad from med school who has no license to practice is not a doctor. Opinions may vary, but if the local state will not give the man a license or has taken it away I will not have him treat me (if I have any choice in the situation). That’s the same as assuming he is not qualified whether he really is or not, it has to be my default position.
 
The Pope of the Coptic Church still does not call the shots, according to The Encyclopedia Coptica:

It is that weakness which I suspect is the cause of the following, which I found to be both startling and troublesome:
Oh. Forgive me, I didn’t realize that the only kind of authority you’re looking for is that which is a mirror image of Rome. You won’t find such in any non-Roman church, that’s for sure, and the Copts are quite happy to not be in accord with Rome’s views of itself or how the church should be run. 🙂 It’s much more like how Hesychios wrote of it: The Pope is certainly the head bishop, but this position does not come with universal jurisdiction or infallibility (Coptic Popes have been deposed, for instance).
 
St. Basil’s first canonical epistle is canon law. There is an allowance for a wide range of opinions through economy, such that those baptized by heretics may be received by economy through Chrismation alone (and some by confession of faith and admission to the Eucharist). The thinking is that the grace of the Church will make up for any lack of grace in the original act of baptism, if a true baptism is not performed. The only time it is agreed universally that one baptized by heretics should be rebaptized is when the form of the baptism is defective, or the heresy is a serious trinitarian heresy. Otherwise, it is a pastoral decision which is for the bishop to make.
In other words, it is a gross simplification to say that we believe them to be invalid. 😉
 
Yes, but the gist of the question relates to the fact that (for example) the Catholic Church would not view Anglican bishops as having valid apostolic succession, while they view the Orthodox as being valid.
Thank you for language assistance - now I know what is “gist”. But I still do not understand = if “gist” is the main point or substance of the question, why do you only secondarily mention Anglican church??? I think the main point of your question has been answered - Holy Orthodoxy does not make pronouncements about other churches, their priests or bishops. Catholic church has great desire to make such pronouncements in order to eventually form groups of “catholics” from among those for various reasons discontented with Orthodoxy or Anglicanism. But once these people form “rites” in the Catholic church they are told by such Cardinal Sandri that their traditions need more to confirm with Latin ones. So what was point! This is a difficult rope to walk - to say to them you are as valid as us, but not as “perfect” as us. Better not to have said anything.

Catholics tend to see every other church through their own assumptions. If Pope of Aleksandria for Copts is a Pope - you feel he should be the absolute power and infallible power of his church. But your Pope was not that until 1st Vatican concil in 19th century. But you have some small group of such “coptic” Catholics who follow Pope of Rome. Do you really think they are better, more like saints than ordinary Copts?? What is the benefit to them - you recognize their “legalness” and now they have what you call “validness”. In what is the affair???
 
I think the main point of your question has been answered - Holy Orthodoxy does not make pronouncements about other churches, their priests or bishops.
Thank you, this does answer my original question. As you can see I am a cradle Catholic, I come to this forum to learn about other views. I hopefully did not offend anyone with this thread as it was not my intention to do so.
Catholics tend to see every other church through their own assumptions.
And this differs from any other church/religion? You are in the Orthodox Church because you believe it to be the church of the New Testament, correct?
 
And this differs from any other church/religion? You are in the Orthodox Church because you believe it to be the church of the New Testament, correct?
Huh? That is the Orthodox belief about the Orthodox Church, saying nothing of any particular belief about the Roman Catholic Church, because there isn’t any one belief about other churches. It would be like scrutinizing your neighbor’s breakfast. You don’t cook it and eat it, so you don’t really get to have a say in what it is (though you may, of course, have an opinion, which you may or may not voice, and your neighbor may or may not take under advisement). And, unless you’re crazy, you probably wouldn’t want one anyway. After all, it has absolutely no effect on your life. Such is the relationship between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox believer (which is to say, there really isn’t one).
 
Huh? That is the Orthodox belief about the Orthodox Church, saying nothing of any particular belief about the Roman Catholic Church, because there isn’t any one belief about other churches. It would be like scrutinizing your neighbor’s breakfast. You don’t cook it and eat it, so you don’t really get to have a say in what it is (though you may, of course, have an opinion, which you may or may not voice, and your neighbor may or may not take under advisement). And, unless you’re crazy, you probably wouldn’t want one anyway. After all, it has absolutely no effect on your life. Such is the relationship between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox believer (which is to say, there really isn’t one).
I am just saying you are Orthodox and I am Catholic because our personal beliefs (which are really assumptions for all of us) align you to that. I don’t know of anybody that says, well I don’t believe that Christ established a visible Church, is present in the Eucharist, etc, etc, but you know what, I’m Catholic (or Orthodox) because even though I disagree, THAT is the true church.

I understand what you are saying but even at its most simple level, the Catholic Church would say that the Orthodox Church split from it, the one true Church and the Orthodox Church would say the same thing about the Catholic Church. If you believe yourself to be the true NT Church (as every denomination does), doesen’t that imply that all other denominations are not?
 
I’d say it does more than imply that, my friend. 🙂 But what it doesn’t do is tell you anything about the “validity” of another church’s sacraments, the state of other believers’ souls, the ultimate resting place of any particular soul outside of it, or anything else by which we may confidently and definitively proclaim anything about any other church. So you see this is in fact about as far away from assumption as you can get. It is very consciously and deliberately non-assumption. It is enough that we recognize our own church as true and its doctrine and practices as true and Orthodox. Whatever else is out there, it is not for us to pass judgment upon beyond reminding any potentially errant faithful that we are not Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, etc., so we do not believe as they believe or do as they do, but as we believe and do, in the footsteps of our fathers and masters the Apostles, their disciples, and the many saints (monks, bishops, etc.) who have lived lives pleasing to God and have been granted the heavenly reward. We’re trying to be in union with them (in our beliefs and practices) so as to ultimately be in union with God, not with any other body who might teach things at variance with what we believe. I would guess that the RCC would, at its core, not desire anything else for itself and its flock, or else why not unite with anyone, the more the merrier, etc. 😉

P.S.- The Orthodox Church is in no way a “denomination”. In the olden days, before Chalcedon and the Tome of Leo split the Church, there was only “The Church”, generally conceived of and existing in a particular geographical location (e.g., the Church of Rome, the Church of Jerusalem, the Church of Alexandria, the Church of Persia, etc.), and to be distinguished from the various Gnostic or other heresies by its adherence to Apostolic teaching and doctrine. Denominationalism is really the product of much later Protestant thinking (so I am a bit surprised that a Roman Catholic would appeal to it, but…), and as the Eastern and Oriental Churches never had Protestant movements of their own, they still think of the Church in the old terms. The West also used to share in this thinking, as we know that it was relatively recently that the Bishop of Rome laid aside the title “Patriarch of the West”. Maybe reclaiming that title and the understanding that goes along with it would help a lot with RCC-EO relations (the OO have a different set of issues in relation to the other churches, which will be a harder nut to crack, but this would at least show progress in which we may be rightly justified in hoping).
 
Well, I can see I am digging myself deeper and deeper without even trying. My OP was answered so I just want to close with 3 things
  1. Yes, denomination was a poor choice of words, sorry. While the RCC and the OC are probably considered Christian “denominations” from a secular point of view, I was actually hesitant to use the word and am sorry I did.
  2. In my humble opinion, God decides our final destination. Our church can only guide us in the right direction and provide some vehicles to obtain grace through the sacraments (which I would think we would both agree).
  3. I like to think that Baptism makes us all one whether we want to act that way or not. I sense hostility in a lot of the responses here and I don’t know why it has to be that way.
 
Well, I can see I am digging myself deeper and deeper without even trying. My OP was answered so I just want to close with 3 things
  1. Yes, denomination was a poor choice of words, sorry. While the RCC and the OC are probably considered Christian “denominations” from a secular point of view, I was actually hesitant to use the word and am sorry I did.
Don’t worry about it. I figured it was a natural slip of the fingers, since it’s common to talk and think about churches in terms of “denominations”, since (in the West, anyway) the Protestant way of thinking has really infected a lot of our discourse.
  1. In my humble opinion, God decides our final destination. Our church can only guide us in the right direction and provide some vehicles to obtain grace through the sacraments (which I would think we would both agree).
Yes, sure. Church enrollment alone cannot save anyone.
  1. I like to think that Baptism makes us all one whether we want to act that way or not. I sense hostility in a lot of the responses here and I don’t know why it has to be that way.
Hmm. I don’t agree with this. But I do apologize if you’ve sensed any hostility in any of my posts. I certainly don’t intend it. It’s difficult to convey tone in text, but for me these are all very matter-of-fact things. I’m not really in the arguing business anymore. I’ve made all my decisions, and now I’m just trying to describe things as best as I can. But still, I’m sorry if I’ve offended you in any way.
 
Hmm. I don’t agree with this. But I do apologize if you’ve sensed any hostility in any of my posts. I certainly don’t intend it. It’s difficult to convey tone in text, but for me these are all very matter-of-fact things. I’m not really in the arguing business anymore. I’ve made all my decisions, and now I’m just trying to describe things as best as I can. But still, I’m sorry if I’ve offended you in any way.
Fair enough, thanks !
 
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