Orthodox sacraments

[bacon_man]

Orthodox sacraments are valid, but since there outside of Rome and in schism, do they have any effect? For example, if an Orthodox christian went to confession in an Orthodox church, would their sins be absolved? And are Orthodox, allowed to receive communion and go to confession in Catholic churches?

 

[Ignatius]

Orthodox sacraments are valid, but since there outside of Rome and in schism, do they have any effect? For example, if an Orthodox christian went to confession in an Orthodox church, would their sins be absolved? And are Orthodox, allowed to receive communion and go to confession in Catholic churches?

Yes, the Sacraments operat ex opere, operato, from the work done. IOW, they are valid, then they are effective.

Also, you should be aware that there is a whole forum dedicated to the Eastern Church.

 

[bacon_man]

Yes, the Sacraments operat ex opere, operato, from the work done. IOW, they are valid, then they are effective.

Also, you should be aware that there is a whole forum dedicated to the Eastern Church.

Yeah, I know, never occured to me. Since eastern rite and orthodox are so similer maybe this thread should be moved?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Orthodox sacraments are valid, but since there outside of Rome and in schism, do they have any effect?

To the Orthodox they do

For example, if an Orthodox christian went to confession in an Orthodox church, would their sins be absolved?

That depends on how the confession goes. If the person just confesses but isn’t really repenting (ie doing it to look good or out of a cheap guilt), it means nothing. If they spiritually grow from it, then yes it does.

And are Orthodox, allowed to receive communion and go to confession in Catholic churches?

No. The two churches are not in communion again, not yet at least.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Orthodox sacraments are valid, but since there outside of Rome and in schism, do they have any effect? For example, if an Orthodox christian went to confession in an Orthodox church, would their sins be absolved? And are Orthodox, allowed to receive communion and go to confession in Catholic churches?

Yes they are valid and licit. And as aa Catholic if you are in a life treatening situaion and there is no way to get to a Cathlic Priest but you can get to an Orthodox Priest if he agrees to admenistor the Sacraments you can receive them in good standing.

 

[bacon_man]

Yes they are valid and licit. And as aa Catholic if you are in a life treatening situaion and there is no way to get to a Cathlic Priest but you can get to an Orthodox Priest if he agrees to admenistor the Sacraments you can receive them in good standing.

Can an Orthodox receive the sacraments in a Catholic Church?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Can an Orthodox receive the sacraments in a Catholic Church?

You’re asking a question of “can” when it really ought to be “should.” If I go to a Roman Catholic church where no one knows me, nothing stops me from going up and taking communion, but in general because the two Churches are not yet in communion again, it would not be proper.

I might also add, in true Orthodox theology, we do not call them “sacraments” but “holy mysteries,” and they’re never numbered. I know this is strange because many Orthodox in the west use the term “seven sacraments” or just “sacraments,” but the difference is there.

 

[bacon_man]

You’re asking a question of “can” when it really ought to be “should.” If I go to a Roman Catholic church where no one knows me, nothing stops me from going up and taking communion, but in general because the two Churches are not yet in communion again, it would not be proper.

I might also add, in true Orthodox theology, we do not call them “sacraments” but “holy mysteries,” and they’re never numbered. I know this is strange because many Orthodox in the west use the term “seven sacraments” or just “sacraments,” but the difference is there.

My question is if the Catholic church permits Orthodox christians to receive communion or go to confession. Regardless of what the orthodox churches permit (and it probably varies). What is the Catholic position, and as a comparison, what is the Orthodox position?

 

[manualman]

1. Orthodox sacraments are valid, but since there outside of Rome and in schism, do they have any effect?
2. For example, if an Orthodox christian went to confession in an Orthodox church, would their sins be absolved?
3. And are Orthodox, allowed to receive communion and go to confession in Catholic churches?

From my own reading and recollection, the Catholic Church considers the Eastern Orthodox Churches to be genuine churches, still possessing valid apostolic succession. Thus their priests are real priests, their Eucharist Body and Blood, their absolutions are done with the same apostolic authority that our own priests have via Jesus.

1& 2. Yes, same as ours. TOTALLY the same.
3. The Catholic Church recognizes EO people as baptized catholics and, in an emergency, would permit an EO to receive the sacraments from a catholic priest. The EO authorities, however, would be rather upset at such behavior by their people and may in fact not consider OUR sacraments valid (seems to depend on who you ask!)

Conversely, if a catholic in an emergency needed confession or annointing of the sick, IIRC the Catholic Church permits him to ask these blessings from an Orthodox priest. But don’t hold your breath that you’ll find one willing to do so.

To be terribly blunt (and perhaps a bit exaggerating), they think we’re heretics. We just think they’re schismatics. Thus the difference in policies.

 

[bacon_man]

From my own reading and recollection, the Catholic Church considers the Eastern Orthodox Churches to be genuine churches, still possessing valid apostolic succession. Thus their priests are real priests, their Eucharist Body and Blood, their absolutions are done with the same apostolic authority that our own priests have via Jesus.

1& 2. Yes, same as ours. TOTALLY the same.
3. The Catholic Church recognizes EO people as baptized catholics and, in an emergency, would permit an EO to receive the sacraments from a catholic priest. The EO authorities, however, would be rather upset at such behavior by their people and may in fact not consider OUR sacraments valid (seems to depend on who you ask!)

Conversely, if a catholic in an emergency needed confession or annointing of the sick, IIRC the Catholic Church permits him to ask these blessings from an Orthodox priest. But don’t hold your breath that you’ll find one willing to do so.

To be terribly blunt (and perhaps a bit exaggerating), they think we’re heretics. We just think they’re schismatics. Thus the difference in policies.

Don’t they reject concepts such as original sin?

 

[manualman]

I’m afraid I’m not qualified to totally explain their objections to our theological definition of Original Sin. But be careful not to read too much into that headline. They do not disbelieve in the Fall of Man, they do not reject the idea that fallen humanity needs a Savior, they do not reject the idea that we have all committed sins.

Their objections are zoomed in to a much greater level of detail than that. At that point, what’s the fuss? I mean really…

 

[Religio71]

Orthodox are allowed to participate in Catholic sacraments. They are allowed, by the Catholic Church, to receive communion in Catholic parishes. When I go to Mass at the National Shrine, they little booklet says that Orthodox Christians, Armenian Apostolic, and one or two others, are allowed to receive communion. However, it also notes that these Christians should listen to what their bishops/Churches say. For Orthodox Christians, they should not receive communion in a Catholic parish. Catholics recognize the validity of Orthodox sacraments, and generally, Orthodox do as well. However we are not in full communion, so it makes sense for Orthodox to believe that we should not have intercommunion at this point.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Don’t they reject concepts such as original sin?

The Orthodox Church believes in ancestral sin - we did not inherit Adam’s guilt but his sinful nature, or his will to disobey God. It still has the same repercussions and separation from God as Original Sin, So as manualman said, what’s the fuss?

 

[bacon_man]

The Orthodox Church believes in ancestral sin - we did not inherit Adam’s guilt but his sinful nature, or his will to disobey God. It still has the same repercussions and separation from God as Original Sin, So as manualman said, what’s the fuss?

Makes sense, seems sorta trivial, what do you think would need to happen for the two churches to re-unify?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Makes sense, seems sorta trivial, what do you think would need to happen for the two churches to re-unify?

Hmmm…many many centuries to pass

God willing it will happen sometime, but I don’t think it will happen in my time. In the meantime, Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox can learn to survive beside each other, and to forgive one another for the crimes of old.

 

[Harpazo]

Orthodox are allowed to participate in Catholic sacraments. They are allowed, by the Catholic Church, to receive communion in Catholic parishes. When I go to Mass at the National Shrine, they little booklet says that Orthodox Christians, Armenian Apostolic, and one or two others, are allowed to receive communion. However, it also notes that these Christians should listen to what their bishops/Churches say. For Orthodox Christians, they should not receive communion in a Catholic parish. Catholics recognize the validity of Orthodox sacraments, and generally, Orthodox do as well. However we are not in full communion, so it makes sense for Orthodox to believe that we should not have intercommunion at this point.

Also, I think it needs mentioning that an Orthodox Christian incurs automatic excommunication on themselves if they receive any of the Mysteries outside of the Orthodox Church. It might sound harsh, but it’s Orthodox (pun intended).

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[bacon_man]

Also, I think it needs mentioning that an Orthodox Christian incurs automatic excommunication on themselves if they receive any of the Mysteries outside of the Orthodox Church. It might sound harsh, but it’s Orthodox (pun intended).

In Christ,
Andrew

Harsh sounding indeed, that attitude doesnt sound reunifying.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

The Orthodox Church believes in ancestral sin - we did not inherit Adam’s guilt but his sinful nature, or his will to disobey God. It still has the same repercussions and separation from God as Original Sin, So as manualman said, what’s the fuss?

What you describe is what Catholics believe too.

 

[Eleve]

My understanding is that the Orthodox Church tends to reject the rate at which the Catholic Church has defined new dogmas since the schism. They reject, for example, the scholasticism of Aquinas. I think the issue with original sin is not so much a serious theological disagreement*, but a disagreement about the need for (or even the appropriateness of) making it a matter of faith.

*On the other hand, I don’t mean to minimize the opinion of any Orthodox Christian who does have a serious theological disagreement with original sin. That’s merely my imperfect understanding of the dispute.

Makes sense, seems sorta trivial, what do you think would need to happen for the two churches to re-unify?

Both Churches proclaim infallible truths that conflict with the other’s. Before reconciling, at least one Church would have to give up its claim to infallible teaching, which would be quite a hard pill to swallow (and potentially permanently damaging to the authority of the reunited Church, especially if both sides make concessions).

There is more to the disagreements than just original sin, if that’s what you’re wondering.

Orthodox sacraments are valid, but since there outside of Rome and in schism, do they have any effect?

Actually, the heresy of the Donatists was in claiming that clergy who betrayed the Church could no longer administer valid Sacraments. Granted, you understand that Orthodox Sacraments are valid, but I think it’s clear enough from the aftermath of the Donatist controversy that those who have received Holy Orders administer efficacious Sacraments through thick and thin.

 

[Hesychios]

Harsh sounding indeed, that attitude doesnt sound reunifying.

In a way it is quite encouraging.

Sharing communion has always implied a common Faith. That is why whom one’s bishop actually was became so important. A visiting traveler would be asked whom his bishop was, and this would be enough to know whether the individual shared a common Faith with the community, or might be a heretic.

So the common Faith takes priority, that is the only reason to be concerned with whom we are in communion. If we prioritize shared communion over a common Faith it is just like putting the cart before the horse, nothing good can come of it!

If we all get back to this principle, everyone will be fully motivated to resolve these troubling theological questions. If, on the other hand, we just start sharing communion as a good will gesture the message will be understood by laity and priests everywhere: It is “anything goes” just like the ** you name it here church **!

Then people may begin to doubt the Real Presence, skip confession, vote for pro-choice politicians…that sort of thing.