Orthodox saints and visions

[Rawb]

At least in the case of the Marian apparitions, it was more than just miracles — they taught new prayers/devotions and revelations. If these signs were from God, wouldn’t they increase our faith and guide us to salvation?

As someone who has not fully committed to the Catholic Church, I still have some reservations about prayers that promise such and such upon consecration to the Immaculate Heart or certain prayers said in a particular formula or revelations that only Mary can provide peace, but again, if they are truly from God, isn’t that a good thing and not a sign of weakness of faith?

Whether it is or not is not for me to say. Orthodox do not have “The 15 Promises of the Rosary” or the Prayer of St. Gertrude, which is believed to release 1,000 souls from purgatory each time it is said, or similar things.

Many Orthodox find the Fatima revelation offensive, because today many Roman Catholics still clamor for a desire for the 'consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary" which, if it’s talking about Mary as the “Immaculate Conception” seems to claim that Russia, to become Christian, needs a foreign and believed-heretical doctrine to save her. Many Orthodox run into RC’s who tell them this online all the time.

 

[EIF5A]

Whether it is or not is not for me to say. Orthodox do not have “The 15 Promises of the Rosary” or the Prayer of St. Gertrude, which is believed to release 1,000 souls from purgatory each time it is said, or similar things.

Many Orthodox find the Fatima revelation offensive, because today many Roman Catholics still clamor for a desire for the 'consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary" which, if it’s talking about Mary as the “Immaculate Conception” seems to claim that Russia, to become Christian, needs a foreign and believed-heretical doctrine to save her. Many Orthodox run into RC’s who tell them this online all the time.

I’ve read Catholic websites cautioning that the prayers are not some magical incantation…but in practice, the surface description kind of sounds like it…I mean, what happens when you pray the prescribed prayer with obedience, faith, humility, and hope, and the prayer is not answered (e.g., healing from illness)? Maybe the faithful are led to pray only for things in accordance with God’s will…I don’t know…

I get that Mary is a unique, blessed, and most holy creation of God that bore Jesus, God made flesh. However, it makes me nervous about unintentionally giving her worship or ascribing power to her that only belongs to and derives from God…and asking her for something that can be granted only by God. Yes, I know she intercedes on our behalf, but some of the prayers seem to indicate she has direct authority or that she is a powerful being in heaven…Which may be true…

I’ve read about the Bathsheba connection. But God is God, not an earthly king, so I wonder how much we can analogize about God who is infinite and beyond comprehension…I’m sure Mary/Theotokos would not want to receive honor and glory only due to God, even if humans do it accidentally…

 

[Nine_Two]

At least in the case of the Marian apparitions, it was more than just miracles — they taught new prayers/devotions and revelations. If these signs were from God, wouldn’t they increase our faith and guide us to salvation?

As someone who has not fully committed to the Catholic Church, I still have some reservations about prayers that promise such and such upon consecration to the Immaculate Heart or certain prayers said in a particular formula or revelations that only Mary can provide peace, but again, if they are truly from God, isn’t that a good thing and not a sign of weakness of faith?

They are still just signs, and revelation is complete. If they bring something novel than they cannot be from God.

 

[EIF5A]

They are still just signs, and revelation is complete. If they bring something novel than they cannot be from God.

How can revelation be complete when Jesus Himself said there is more to know but that He had to go back to heaven for the Holy Spirit to come and guide in truth?

 

[Reuben_J]

How can revelation be complete when Jesus Himself said there is more to know but that He had to go back to heaven for the Holy Spirit to come and guide in truth?

It is complete in that there would be no new revelation other than what have been revealed through and by Jesus Christ.

 

[Nine_Two]

How can revelation be complete when Jesus Himself said there is more to know but that He had to go back to heaven for the Holy Spirit to come and guide in truth?

He said the Holy Spirit would guide us, certainly. But where did he say that it would bring new revelation?

 

[pablope]

At least in the case of the Marian apparitions, it was more than just miracles — they taught new prayers/devotions and revelations. If these signs were from God, wouldn’t they increase our faith and guide us to salvation?

Again, keep in mind…these are optional to believe…if you are uncomfortable…you do not need to believe them.

As I always ask those vehement non-Cs (not you…those in the fundamental world out there…) who doubts these…I ask if they believe Mary is in heaven…and if they do believe this…would Mary say something contrary to God’s will? Would Mary do something contrary to God’s will?

 

[EIF5A]

Again, keep in mind…these are optional to believe…if you are uncomfortable…you do not need to believe them.

 

[Misplaced_Book]

pablope;11060983:

I think the issue is, Is it really Mary or some entity pretending to be Mary?

New to the Forum…figured I’d jump in the deep end.

This really goes to the heart of it. Was it authentic or demonic delusion? You will get varying answers.

I always found it to be disingenuous to say that you “Don’t have to believe in them” when the popular devotional culture is stacked so heavily towards these devotions. Our Lady of Fatima on the general calendar, the declaration that the Second Sunday of Easter is “Divine Mercy Sunday” based on a private vision, The Sacred Heart feast (sure people like the Catholic saint John Eudes had an earlier devotion, but the bulk of the current devotions are based off of the visions of Margaret Mary) et al…

Sure you can discount Fatima, The Visions of Margaret Mary, Miraculous Medal, etc…but is that even practical, or possible?

Remember: Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi

 

[EIF5A]

EIF5A;11061220:

New to the Forum…figured I’d jump in the deep end.

This really goes to the heart of it. Was it authentic or demonic delusion? You will get varying answers.

I always found it to be disingenuous to say that you “Don’t have to believe in them” when the popular devotional culture is stacked so heavily towards these devotions. Our Lady of Fatima on the general calendar, the declaration that the Second Sunday of Easter is “Divine Mercy Sunday” based on a private vision, The Sacred Heart feast (sure people like the Catholic saint John Eudes had an earlier devotion, but the bulk of the current devotions are based off of the visions of Margaret Mary) et al…

Sure you can discount Fatima, The Visions of Margaret Mary, Miraculous Medal, etc…but is that even practical, or possible?

Remember: Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi

I get what you’re saying. The other day, I “accidentally” consecrated myself to Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal. All I did was repeat what everyone else was saying right after Mass.

It was literally right after, so I felt weird leaving…and lo and behold, I’ve consecrated myself to Our Lady. I wonder what’s expected of me now lol.

And the homilies also mention private revelations (e.g., Fatima), so you can’t not believe them in practice without thinking you’re somehow a bad Christian because everyone else believes, so shouldn’t you?

 

[dcointin]

pablope;11060983:

I think the issue is, Is it really Mary or some entity pretending to be Mary?

The ability to determine the origin of such events requires spiritual discernment, which is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and which not many of us (myself foremost) possess. One way however that we can all approach these is to ask “what are their fruits?”. Our Lord teaches:

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits. - Matthew 7:15-19

Do these visions lead to greater love, charity, humility? Do they serve to increase our faith? Do they point us to Christ?

 

[pablope]

pablope;11060983:

*Again, keep in mind…these are optional to believe…if you are uncomfortable…you do not need to believe them.

As I always ask those vehement non-Cs (not you…those in the fundamental world out there…) who doubts these…I ask if they believe Mary is in heaven…and if they do believe this…would Mary say something contrary to God’s will? Would Mary do something contrary to God’s will
*

I think the issue is, Is it really Mary or some entity pretending to be Mary?

Ahh…that is why we have to somehow, trust the Church, not ourselves. Christ promised to guide the church to the truth always:

1John 4… 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

And do find time to read this:

calledtocommunion.com/2009/07/ecclesial-deism/

If you prefer, skip over to part III and IV:

Aquinas believed that faith in Christ necessarily involves trusting the Church, because Christ cannot fail to guide and protect the development of His Church.

I came to see that I did not fully trust Christ, not because I thought Him untrustworthy, but because I had not understood that Christ founded a visible hierarchically organized Body of which He is the Head, and which He has promised to protect and preserve until He returns. I had not apprehended the ecclesial organ Christ established through which the members of His Body are to trust Him. I came to see that faith in Christ is not something to be exercised invisibly, from my heart directly to Christ’s throne, as though Christ had not appointed an enduring line of shepherds. Inward faith was to be exercised outwardly, by trusting Christ through those shepherds Christ sent and established. Jesus had said, “The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”29

This is the sacramental conception of faith, not simply belief that, but belief through. This is the sacramental conception of the Church, the basis for the priest speaking in persona Christi.

But upon coming to understand that Christ founded a visible hierarchically organized Body of which He is the Head and which He promised to preserve, I came to see that the way to trust Christ is to trust His Church of which He is the Head, just as the early Christians trusted Christ precisely by trusting the teaching of the Apostles. Trusting the Apostles did not subtract from (or compete with) their trust in Christ. On the contrary, when Jesus tells the Apostle Thomas, “Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed,”30 He implies that greater faith is required and shown in those who trust in Christ not by seeing Him, but by believing the testimony of the Apostles. Jesus refers to this way of believing when He prays, “I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word.”31