Orthodox teaching on heaven and hell

[dvdjs]

Transubstantiation and the Real Presence are not the same thing. The former is an affirmation of a specific mechanism.

There is no mechanism whatsoever in the passage from Trent given above. Where does this idea come from?

 

[dvdjs]

Returning the discussion back to the theme of this thread, I believe it is accurate to say that the Catholic Church has dogmatized more on the Last Things than the Orthodox Church has. The particular judgment and purgatory immediately come to mind.

Many Orthodox, for example, believe it is possible for a person to be saved from damnation through the prayers of the Church. They cite the Vesper prayer that is offered each year on Pentecost:

Also see the Akathist for the Departed.

According to common Orthodox teaching, hell, in all of its eternal finality, does not yet exist, because the general resurrection and final judgment have not yet occurred. Met Hierotheos Vlachos’s Life After Death presents what might be described as the consensual teaching on these matters. This book is a very good resource. Met Hierotheos would also strongly disagree with those who, like Met Kallistos and Met Hilarion, confidently hope that all will be saved.

Sorry Father, but some remarks, even though tangential really call for a response.
I think your comment is about the relative degree of dogma is fair, but it might not be fiar to say that the scope of teaching is less.

For example, I am surprised by your comment on the “particular judgement”, since any Orthodox commentary in the time between death and resurrection includes the idea of “foretaste” that implies a particular judgement. And some use the phrase explicitly, eg
saintandrewgoc.org/blog/2012/10/23/the-particular-judgment-the-fate-of-man-after-death-until-ge.html, from Dogmatic Orthodox Theology.

 

[Reuben_J]

Returning the discussion back to the theme of this thread, I believe it is accurate to say that the Catholic Church has dogmatized more on the Last Things than the Orthodox Church has. The particular judgment and purgatory immediately come to mind.

Many Orthodox, for example, believe it is possible for a person to be saved from damnation through the prayers of the Church. They cite the Vesper prayer that is offered each year on Pentecost:

Also see the Akathist for the Departed.

According to common Orthodox teaching, hell, in all of its eternal finality, does not yet exist, because the general resurrection and final judgment have not yet occurred. Met Hierotheos Vlachos’s Life After Death presents what might be described as the consensual teaching on these matters. This book is a very good resource. Met Hierotheos would also strongly disagree with those who, like Met Kallistos and Met Hilarion, confidently hope that all will be saved.

That is interesting Fr. Since it is possible for the souls to be saved from the damnation as you said, where would you think that souls would be before they are saved (through the prayer of the Church)?

Secondly in your estimation, what percentage of the Orthodox who believe that Hell has not yet exist?

Edit. What is the Orthodox teaching regarding the Bible term of the ‘grinding of teeth’ and about Lazarus and the rich man?

 

[JasonTittle]

“All over the board”, is the best way to describe it. I’ve heard of God’s light which warms the saints and burns the sinners; I have heard of his energies which divinize us; I have heard tell of toll-houses and soul-sleep.

I am reminded of Sweedenourgism here. (Did I spell that right?) Where those who love God are in Heaven while in His light and those who hate God are in hell at His Presence. Most interesting indeed.

 

[JasonTittle]

That is interesting Fr. Since it is possible for the souls to be saved from the damnation as you said, where would you think that souls would be before they are saved (through the prayer of the Church)?

Secondly in your estimation, what percentage of the Orthodox who believe that Hell has not yet exist?

Has anyone ever wondered about a possible Universal 100% Salvation? Wherein the lost remain in Purgatory until the time is up? Perhaps the “Lake of Fire” is a Metaphor for Purgatory? I am curious. Thanks!

 

[Reuben_J]

Has anyone ever wondered about a possible Universal 100% Salvation? Wherein the lost remain in Purgatory until the time is up? Perhaps the “Lake of Fire” is a Metaphor for Purgatory? I am curious. Thanks!

Fr mentioned that the Orthodox Church does not dogmatize about the last thing. I don’t think they believe in purgatory. I am interested to know though what happen and where are those souls that are waiting to be saved. They can’t be in hell either since the Orthodox commonly don’t believe it exist yet.

 

[Indifferently]

Fr mentioned that the Orthodox Church does not dogmatize about the last thing. I don’t think they believe in purgatory. I am interested to know though what happen and where are those souls that are waiting to be saved. They can’t be in hell either since the Orthodox commonly don’t believe it exist yet.

Hades?

 

[Reuben_J]

Hades?

Perhaps. While waiting for Fr to clear this up, from what he said, I doubt they believe in that either. The Orthodox does not have dogmatized teaching on the last thing. It’s quite clear in the Catholic Church - which is of course purgatory.

 

[FrKimel]

For example, I am surprised by your comment on the “particular judgement”, since any Orthodox commentary in the time between death and resurrection includes the idea of “foretaste” that implies a particular judgement. And some use the phrase explicitly.

The difference, I think, is the irreversibility and finality of the particular judgment. That the particular judgment is final and irreversible enjoys near dogmatic status in the Catholic Church. This is not the case in Orthodoxy. Hence the belief of some (many?) Orthodox that we can save the souls of the “damned” through our prayers. If I were Catholic and I knew, perhaps through private revelation, that ____ was damned, it would not make any sense for me to pray for his salvation. Catholics seem to agree that our prayers for the damned cannot benefit them (see this thread). This is not necessarily the case for the Orthodox believer. Again I reference the Pentecost kneeling prayers, in which we pray for those “imprisoned in Hades.” Met HIlarion relates this story:

Several years ago I came across a short article in a journal of the Coptic Church where it stated that this Church had decided to remove prayers for those held in hell from its service books, since these prayers “contradict Orthodox teaching”. Puzzled by this article, I decided to ask a representative of the Coptic Church about the reasons for this move. Recently I had the possibility to do so, and a Coptic Metropolitan replied that the decision was made by his Synod because, according their official doctrine, no prayers can help those in hell. I told the metropolitan that in the liturgical practice of the Russian Orthodox Church and other local Orthodox Churches there are prayers for those held in hell, and that we believe in their saving power. This surprised the Metropolitan, and he promised to study this question in more detail.

One can find stories of saints, Eastern and Western, who allegedly prayed people out of hell. 2nd millenium Latin theologians would not explain these stories as prayers for those who were actually in a purgatorial state, i.e., already saved.

Just saying.

 

[Indifferently]

The difference, I think, is the irreversibility and finality of the particular judgment. That the particular judgment is final and irreversible enjoys near dogmatic status in the Catholic Church. This is not the case in Orthodoxy. Hence the belief of some (many?) Orthodox that we can save the souls of the “damned” through our prayers. If I were Catholic and I knew, perhaps through private revelation, that ____ was damned, it would not make any sense for me to pray for his salvation. Catholics seem to agree that our prayers for the damned cannot benefit them (see this thread). This is not necessarily the case for the Orthodox believer. Again I reference the Pentecost kneeling prayers, in which we pray for those “imprisoned in Hades.” Met HIlarion relates this story:

One can find stories of saints, Eastern and Western, who allegedly prayed people out of hell. 2nd millenium Latin theologians would not explain these stories as prayers for those who were actually in a purgatorial state, i.e., already saved.

Just saying.

Your responses to my humble thread have been most interesting. These Orthodox threads always seem to turn hostile (wonder why?) but you have kept very cool.

 

[chimo]

I have been looking into this and find it very intriguing. Could any Orthodox help to explain it?

I am Orthodox and I have balance my understanding of Heaven and Hell by incorporating both teachings of East and West. It is my understanding that Hell is often misunderstood by many of us because we wonder how can a loving perfect God allow it to exist. However it is not there in the beginning for Hell is not a place but it is more a condition. And it is not a condition that God imposes on us but it is more a condition we impose unto ourselves. We know fom the Fatima messages this prayer,“Oh my Jesus forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, lead all souls into Heaven, especially those who are in need of your mercy.” We know of one of the secrets revealed at Fatima when the Blessed Mother had shown to the three shepherd children a vision and the reality of the existence of Hell. The chldren seeing such a vision asked her why do souls go there. She said many go there because no one makes reparation for them.

The concept of Hell as startling it can be tells us one must be in this state before they die if they are to enter into it for all eternity. But why does one cannot change their disposotion after they have died. Certainly a person can change before they die since the Holy Mother said no one makes reparation for them meaning if we will only get on our knees we can do something for these souls before they die. An excellent and holy priest I knew gave me the answer when after I attended to him for confession related to me that when we die our wills which are part of our immortal sins are automatically fixed. This process will close the books and if one is in a state of hell when there will is now fixed cannot change their condition.

This fixation of the wills helps explain what happened to the devil and all the rest of the disobedient angels for once they made their decision to sin their wills became automatically fixed so that it was impossible for them to repent. Their torment was inexcusible because these angels knew about the differences and their foreknowledge did have a warning not to engage into this territory so that they knew about the consequences even before they sinned! God does this for angels and man so that He will not have to deal with angels and men sinning eternally! The angels had that one opportunity and they rejected complete happiness even though they had it all from the beginning to know God and His gifts of Grace. Man on the other hand was given his own lifetime on earth to make that decision to serve and remain with God. Once he does his opportunity to repent continues to his death. After death the books are closed from those who are in the state we call Hell. The will which is part of their souls cannot receive Grace. It is normally fixed at death.

The only condition that continues after death that has the will to offer thanks to receive His Grace is the condition the Church calls Purgatory. In this state of being the condition of the person can still improve towards the Heavenly condition and as God will give to these souls His Holy Spirit so their condition will eventually come to the Beautific vision.

If you want a clearly understanding on Heaven, Hell and Purgatory than look no further than to the Divine Mercy diary written be St. Maria Faustina who reveals much more of these realities in detail. The Orthodox Church for me is the Church which points more to God’s attribute towards Mercy and the Catholic Church is the Church which points more towards God’s attribute towards Justice. Even though both Churches exhibit both attributes within there is noticable gifted understanding more on His Mercy in the East and on His Justice in the West. This is why the Catholic Church has the teaching of Purgatory in her theology for she is gifted in understanding more the role of God’s Justice and how He implements it towards us.

The East and the Orthodox are gifted in displaying God’s Mercy and this shown in the many writngs of her Saints and contained in her many teachings. St. Issac the Syrian is one of those saints. I have found out combining the two great teachings of both East and West we can recieve a better and complete picture of what we are searching for.

 

[Reuben_J]

The difference, I think, is the irreversibility and finality of the particular judgment. That the particular judgment is final and irreversible enjoys near dogmatic status in the Catholic Church. This is not the case in Orthodoxy. Hence the belief of some (many?) Orthodox that we can save the souls of the “damned” through our prayers. If I were Catholic and I knew, perhaps through private revelation, that ____ was damned, it would not make any sense for me to pray for his salvation. Catholics seem to agree that our prayers for the damned cannot benefit them (see this thread). This is not necessarily the case for the Orthodox believer. Again I reference the Pentecost kneeling prayers, in which we pray for those “imprisoned in Hades.” Met HIlarion relates this story:

One can find stories of saints, Eastern and Western, who allegedly prayed people out of hell. 2nd millenium Latin theologians would not explain these stories as prayers for those who were actually in a purgatorial state, i.e., already saved.

Just saying.

I think your post is quite confusing Fr. Catholic don’t know if anybody is in hell. Therefore all the souls departed need our prayer. Our prayer does not save them per se; that belong to God and his mercy. We pray for each other, both the living and the dead, because we are in one communion as body of believers.

Secondly I don’t know if Catholic terms the souls in purgatory as being saved. We don’t know how long they would be in purgatory as time in eternity may not be the same as our understanding of it. The finality of it is still in the hands of God (regarding the length of time one stay in purgatory).

 

[FrKimel]

That is interesting Fr. Since it is possible for the souls to be saved from the damnation as you said, where would you think that souls would be before they are saved (through the prayer of the Church)?

How can we speak of “location” for disembodied souls (remember, the general resurrection has not occurred yet)? All we need to say is that all the departed are with and in God.

Secondly in your estimation, what percentage of the Orthodox who believe that Hell has not yet exist?

The Orthodox Church commonly makes a distinction between hades and gehenna. Hell only becomes a reality at the Final Judgment. See the book by Met Hierotheos. I would think that a very high percentage of Orthodox bishops and theologians would agree with this distinction, though I have no data to support my claim.

What is the Orthodox teaching regarding the Bible term of the ‘grinding of teeth’ and about Lazarus and the rich man?

I would imagine that one would find various interpretations of this parable. Met Hierotheos offers what one might consider to be a traditional interpretation. I say “traditional,” in that he does not believe that a person’s orientation can be altered after death. Hence his position on this point closely approximates the teaching of the Catholic Church. But others, including myself, would interpret the parable differently.

 

[FrKimel]

Oops. My sentence above “2nd millenium Latin theologians would not explain these stories as prayers for those who were actually in a purgatorial state, i.e., already saved” should read “2nd millenium Latin theologians would explain these stories as prayers for those who were actually in a purgatorial state, i.e., already saved.”

 

[Reuben_J]

I am Orthodox and I have balance my understanding of Heaven and Hell by incorporating both teachings of East and West. It is my understanding that Hell is often misunderstood by many of us because we wonder how can a loving perfect God allow it to exist. However it is not there in the beginning for Hell is not a place but it is more a condition. And it is not a condition that God imposes on us but it is more a condition we impose unto ourselves. We know fom the Fatima messages this prayer,“Oh my Jesus forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, lead all souls into Heaven, especially those who are in need of your mercy.” We know of one of the secrets revealed at Fatima when the Blessed Mother had shown to the three shepherd children a vision and the reality of the existence of Hell. The chldren seeing such a vision asked her why do souls go there. She said many go there because no one makes reparation for them.

The concept of Hell as startling it can be tells us one must be in this state before they die if they are to enter into it for all eternity. But why does one cannot change their disposotion after they have died. Certainly a person can change before they die since the Holy Mother said no one makes reparation for them meaning if we will only get on our knees we can do something for these souls before they die. An excellent and holy priest I knew gave me the answer when after I attended to him for confession related to me that when we die our wills which are part of our immortal sins are automatically fixed. This process will close the books and if one is in a state of hell when there will is now fixed cannot change their condition.

This fixation of the wills helps explain what happened to the devil and all the rest of the disobedient angels for once they made their decision to sin their wills became automatically fixed so that it was impossible for them to repent. Their torment was inexcusible because these angels knew about the differences and their foreknowledge did have a warning not to engage into this territory so that they knew about the consequences even before they sinned! God does this for angels and man so that He will not have to deal with angels and men sinning eternally! The angels had that one opportunity and they rejected complete happiness even though they had it all from the beginning to know God and His gifts of Grace. Man on the other hand was given his own lifetime on earth to make that decision to serve and remain with God. Once he does his opportunity to repent continues to his death. After death the books are closed from those who are in the state we call Hell. The will which is part of their souls cannot receive Grace. It is normally fixed at death.

The only condition that continues after death that has the will to offer thanks to receive His Grace is the condition the Church calls Purgatory. In this state of being the condition of the person can still improve towards the Heavenly condition and as God will give to these souls His Holy Spirit so their condition will eventually come to the Beautific vision.

If you want a clearly understanding on Heaven, Hell and Purgatory than look no further than to the Divine Mercy diary written be St. Maria Faustina who reveals much more of these realities in detail. The Orthodox Church for me is the Church which points more to God’s attribute towards Mercy and the Catholic Church is the Church which points more towards God’s attribute towards Justice. Even though both Churches exhibit both attributes within there is noticable gifted understanding more on His Mercy in the East and on His Justice in the West. This is why the Catholic Church has the teaching of Purgatory in her theology for she is gifted in understanding more the role of God’s Justice and how He implements it towards us.

The East and the Orthodox are gifted in displaying God’s Mercy and this shown in the many writngs of her Saints and contained in her many teachings. St. Issac the Syrian is one of those saints. I have found out combining the two great teachings of both East and West we can recieve a better and complete picture of what we are searching for.

A great and well balanced post. Who are you? You give your religion as Orthodox but you are not like some of the Orthodox posters here. Your posts are pleasure to read besides being informative.

God bless you.

 

[FrKimel]

Let me add that this topic is not of mere academic interest to me. If you want to know how an Orthodox priest who believes, as I do, that repentance is possible after death and who confidently hopes for the salvation of all might preach on heaven and hell, I suggest that you read this funeral homily. I believe that God led me into the Orthodox Church so that I could preach precisely this homily and ultimately save my Christian faith and hopefully my soul.

I reference this homily for those who wish to reflect further, but I cannot discuss the specifics. The death of my son. which has shattered me and devastated my family, is too fresh. There was a time when churchmen, both Catholic and Orthodox, would have declared my son damned to eternal flames. Today folks talk about mitigating factors, which I find completely unsatisfactory. The real question is the extent of God’s love and the nature of human freedom.

 

[dvdjs]

The difference, I think, is the irreversibility and finality of the particular judgment. That the particular judgment is final and irreversible enjoys near dogmatic status in the Catholic Church. This is not the case in Orthodoxy. Hence the belief of some (many?) Orthodox that we can save the souls of the “damned” through our prayers. If I were Catholic and I knew, perhaps through private revelation, that ____ was damned, it would not make any sense for me to pray for his salvation. Catholics seem to agree that our prayers for the damned cannot benefit them (see this thread). This is not necessarily the case for the Orthodox believer. Again I reference the Pentecost kneeling prayers, in which we pray for those “imprisoned in Hades.”

Father, given that my particular interest in this thread was piqued by the charge of Latins dogmatizing everything, I hope you don;t mind that I point out that “enjoys a near dogmatic status” really means not dogmatized.

These ideas may be really dogmatized among the Reformers, I am not sure. I think it may be true that in the CC there may be widely held idea that certain people are already and will certainly be damned - and I recall similar statements discussed in the OC about Arius to name one example. But I was always taught that we could not be certain about the last moments of a persons life, and in view of the example of the good thief, these last moments may have been decisive. Certainly the CC beleives that there are people already in heaven. This idea also certainly enjoys “near dogmatic status” at least in the EOC. I haven’t thouht about whether or not one can, in effect, fail purgatory, but it seems implicit in the teaching that prayers of the failthful are efficacious in advancing the purification of the souls there. However, this sort of theologizing is always bound up in the concept of our experience of time, which is an illusion, however stubborn.

 

[FrKimel]

I think your post is quite confusing Fr. Catholic don’t know if anybody is in hell. Therefore all the souls departed need our prayer. Our prayer does not save them per se; that belong to God and his mercy. We pray for each other, both the living and the dead, because we are in one communion as body of believers.

You are quite right. The Catholic Church does not officially teach that any specific soul is in hell; but see this article by Avery Cardinal Dulles: “The Population of Hell.”

I think if you re-read what I wrote, you will see that I was speaking hypothetically. I specifically spoke of “private revelation.” There is a difference between praying for all, because we are ignorant who is saved and who is not, and praying for all, regardless of their salvific state. As an Orthodox I would pray for ____, even if I knew that he was damned, and I would do so in confidence that my prayers would benefit him.

Secondly I don’t know if Catholic terms the souls in purgatory as being saved. We don’t know how long they would be in purgatory as time in eternity may not be the same as our understanding of it. The finality of it is still in the hands of God (regarding the length of time one stay in purgatory).

I’m afraid you are incorrect on this point. According to Catholic teaching, those who are in a purgatorial state are, by definition, saved or justified–their wills are definitively and irreversibly oriented toward God–and indeed they know that they are justified and are now incapable of falling away from God–hence their joy. They just need some further cleansing.

 

[FrKimel]

Father, given that my particular interest in this thread was piqued by the charge of Latins dogmatizing everything, I hope you don;t mind that I point out that “enjoys a near dogmatic status” really means not dogmatized.

My guess–and I welcome correction from one of the knowledgeable priests on this forum–is that the Catholic Church’s teaching that the will of the human being is fixed at the moment of death–hence the irreversibility of the particular judgment–enjoys something akin to irreformable status, even though the Church has not defined the matter by an extraordinary magisterial act. It certainly is authoritative teaching. As Pope Benedict wrote in Spe salvi, “With death, our life-choice becomes definitive—our life stands before the judge.”

But is the human will fixed at the moment of death? Does not this claim simply mean that the human being has lost his freedom. I can understand why the redeemed cannot repent. They have been given all that they desire and need; their desires have been fulfilled and are being fulfilled. But the damned have chosen against their good, which means an eternity of unbearable suffering. Are we to believe that despite the intensity of their suffering, they are incapable of reconsidering their ultimate decision for God. Why would that be so? Why would God permit that to be so?

Does God abandon those who abandon him? Is he incapable of making his voice heard to those who have made themselves deaf, like the dwarfs in The Last Battle who cannot hear Aslan’s roar? Does God’s love and mercy have a time limit?

Consider this story told by Elder Sophrony about St Silouan:

I remember a conversation between him [St Silouan] and a certain hermit, who declared with evident satisfaction, ‘God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire.’

Obviously upset, The Staretz said:

‘Tell me, supposing you went to paradise and there looked down and saw somebody burning in hell-fire - would you feel happy?’

‘It can’t be helped. It would be their own fault,’ said the hermit.

The Staretz answered him with a sorrowful countenance:

‘Love could not bear that,’ he said. ‘We must pray for all’

How can we pray for the salvation of all the departed if we believe that their wills are irreversibly fixed? Yet the Orthodox formally prays for the salvation of all the departed. Thus Met Hilarion Alfeyev:

On the one hand, it is impossible for one to actively repent in hell; it is impossible to rectify the evil deeds one committed by appropriate good works. However, it may be possible for one to repent through a ‘change of heart’, a review of one’s values. One of the testimonies to this is the rich man of the Gospel we have already mentioned. He realized the gravity of his situation as soon as found himself in hell. Indeed, if in his lifetime he was focused on earthly pursuits and forgot God, once in hell he realized that his only hope for salvation was God. Besides, according to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, the fate of a person after death can be changed through the prayer of the Church. Thus, existence after death has its own dynamics. On the basis of what has been said above, we may say that after death the development of the human person does not cease, for existence after death is not a transfer from a dynamic into a static being, but rather continuation on a new level of that road which a person followed in his lifetime.

There are saints–St Gregory Nyssen and St Isaac of Syria immediately come to mind–who believed that even Satan would eventually repent. How is it possible even to entertain this possibility? After all, angels are spiritual, non-temporal beings. Yet these saints hoped and prayed for the salvation of the fallen angels.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Certainly the CC beleives that there are people already in heaven. This idea also certainly enjoys “near dogmatic status” at least in the EOC.

It certainly does not.